Injection as a weapon, Injection guns (point blank, not narcojet) Options

[Rubic]

I found one piece of modern-day equipment vastly missing from all of the 4e Shadowrun material, both books and online. That is injection guns. Whenever I look for such a device statted, I find only Narcojet. Now, to make sure no misunderstanding occurs, I do not mean ranged injections, I do not mean a gun that shoots syringes or darts. I refer to the cattle-injection type devices, used for an assembly-line type injection.

My personal intention for such a device, I will admit, is for a PC weapon idea: Tonfa with a smartlinked injection device to deliver pre-made doses of debilitating drugs/poisons. The possibility of overdose would be present, yes, but that's more or less working as intended (it's a weapon after all). By 2072, they could have easily made such injectors self-sterilizing within a certain capacity (i.e. every 10-20 injections requires a refill of sterilizers). I understand the utility and pervasiveness of slap-patches, and the modern-day access to sterile syringes for such common maladies as diabetes. However, would such technology really have vanished or been impossible to implement and weaponize to any degree when runners are resourceful and quirky, and even a medkit could provide the base materials for an armorer to install?

[Yerameyahu]

Bleh. I assume cattle are just so rare, that this is a very exotic and obscure tech. Sure, add it in the game if you want. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Wouldn't they be using hyposprays by then, though? I guess you need the armor-piercing needles.

[Rubic]

Bleh. I assume cattle are just so rare, that this is a very exotic and obscure tech. Sure, add it in the game if you want. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Wouldn't they be using hyposprays by then, though? I guess you need the armor-piercing needles.

You neglect the military's reliance on outdated tech that they only just purchased a decade or more ago and have kept in storage while they exhausted their current supply of more-outdated tech/drugs.

Besides, injection vector is one of the more reliable (barring dermal plating) methods of ensuring the minimum desired toxicity reaches the blood. There are many protections against inhalation and contact vector poisons, and ingestion just requires careful choice of food and drink, and not trusting any that's been out of your sight for any length of time. Today, most chemically sealed suits are decidedly not puncture-proof, which would likely carry over to 2070.

I'm most confused how to introduce such an idea per mechanics and cost. Mechanically, the injector itself would be rather easy to pull off, but the tonfa would require durability, DV, number of shots (not sure how potent each mL of drugs are), etc. Armor Pen needles would definitely go into it in case of troll.

Understandably, the more often a schtick is used, the more likely people will develop and employ countermeasures. However, having several methods of delivering toxins/nanites/bleach/other and keeping things fresh can easily make for a nasty surprise for any who don't expect it. A mix of Bliss and Zen could easily disable quite a few opponents in a minimum of hits.

[suoq]

I'm still trying to figure out why you want it in a Tonfa and why you care if it's sterile.

In the long run, just have the player and GM sit down and decide yes or no, a price, and possibly a reliability factor if the thing is homemade. (Might as well take Signature while you're at it. I'm pretty sure someone injecting people with a Tonfa will stand out as unusual. That will help pay for the Exotic Melee Weapon skill.)

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

I'm still trying to figure out why you want it in a Tonfa and why you care if it's sterile.

In the long run, just have the player and GM sit down and decide yes or no, a price, and possibly a reliability factor if the thing is homemade. (Might as well take Signature while you're at it. I'm pretty sure someone injecting people with a Tonfa will stand out as unusual. That will help pay for the Exotic Melee Weapon skill.)

Because you wouldn't want them to get an infection, obviously.

I figure they'd use the same rules as the various ranged injection weapons (which, as I recall are basically if you hit someone they're injected period) except they'd be used in melee and would likely require the exotic weapon skill to use. I'm guessing 10ish does per reload.

I'm not entirely sure what the function of the Tonfa is either. Are you hoping to use the Tonfa regularly and it grows spines when you hit someone? Or is it just a concealment for the injector? Or what exactly the thought line is. Some clarification here would be great.

Edit: I could also imagine them being used in the medical world for quick injections of things like sedatives or pain killers or other very common drugs. I'd imagine the medical version would include a little side rack for carrying extra sterile needles for quick replacement.

[Fortinbras]

You want an auto-injector attached to a stick.
I don't think a melee weapon can be smartlinked, but other than that, go nuts.
Treat it with the same rules as a dart gun, but with a melee attack instead of a ranged one. Use the same rules for toxins as SR4a p. 254 and Arsenal p. 83.

And the more often a schtick is used, the less people laugh.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Especially if it puts people on the floor like the right toxins do.

[Yerameyahu]

I dunno about the medical quick multi-injector, though. It's certainly possible, but I wasn't kidding about the hypospray; we have had pressure injection devices since… 2000, 2005? Obviously they have different uses than deep injections, but that's what drug research is for!

[CanRay]

SR4A: Page 320-321: Parashield Dart Pistol and Rifle.

[redwulf25]

Bleh. I assume cattle are just so rare, that this is a very exotic and obscure tech. Sure, add it in the game if you want. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Wouldn't they be using hyposprays by then, though? I guess you need the armor-piercing needles.

What does an orderly use to sedate a Troll though?

[Fortinbras]

Whatever he can get his hands on.

Now THAT'S schtick!

[CanRay]

What does an orderly use to sedate a Troll though?

Same thing as a human. Just five times as much. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Rubic]

Because you wouldn't want them to get an infection, obviously.

I figure they'd use the same rules as the various ranged injection weapons (which, as I recall are basically if you hit someone they're injected period) except they'd be used in melee and would likely require the exotic weapon skill to use. I'm guessing 10ish does per reload.

I'm not entirely sure what the function of the Tonfa is either. Are you hoping to use the Tonfa regularly and it grows spines when you hit someone? Or is it just a concealment for the injector? Or what exactly the thought line is. Some clarification here would be great.

Edit: I could also imagine them being used in the medical world for quick injections of things like sedatives or pain killers or other very common drugs. I'd imagine the medical version would include a little side rack for carrying extra sterile needles for quick replacement.

Tonfa are a unique weapon. T shaped design, and several sides can be used for striking surfaces, depending on the blows you wish to deliver, as well as a probably mechanical bonus to parrying. The injectors attached are more intended to be a dirty little surprise, with the option of purposely self-injecting, depending on what chems happen to be there. The smart-link system would be intended to choose a proper toxin from the reservoir, as per choosing the desired ammunition from a gun (minimal functionality is fine), as well as estimating proper dosage if I'm actually WORRIED about overdosing the target, or if I'm self- or team-injecting.

You want an auto-injector attached to a stick.
I don't think a melee weapon can be smartlinked, but other than that, go nuts.
Treat it with the same rules as a dart gun, but with a melee attack instead of a ranged one. Use the same rules for toxins as SR4a p. 254 and Arsenal p. 83.

And the more often a schtick is used, the less people laugh.

I like this, Fortinbras. And as for the laughing, if they laugh at it, then they're not likely to defend effectively, or even see it coming at first (barring NPC omnipotence).

What does an orderly use to sedate a Troll though?

A different orderly!!

[suoq]

unique weapon.... mechanical bonus to parrying....dirty little surprise...option of purposely self-injecting...smart-link system...not likely to defend effectively, or even see it coming

Custom made complicated obvious weaponry with internal electronics, storage of dangerous liquids, and many precision parts that needs to withstand and, in fact deliver repeated hard impacts using a deliberately flawed (holes for needles) surface structure.

It's between you and your GM. If the GM (and the other players) want to allow it, give it the advantages, and skip the disadvantages, more power to you.

[Ghost_in_the_Sys...]

Yeah, I know what a tonfa is, I just still don't know exactly how you want to use it.

Do you want spines to bristle out the length of it, or do you want a needle to come out one end or what?

[Teulisch]

its an interesting idea, but it sounds to me like it would work better with the blades skill. you are basically using at as spear in this case.

look at the injection arrow. it does what you want, but for archery. take the technology in use there and convert the arrow to a hand-held weapon. so now you have a stabbing weapon that injects a toxin or drug.

[KarmaInferno]

Now I want to stat up an NPC opponent that has very obvious armor piercing injectors on his fingers.

Just to weird out and disturb players. It's one thing if a guy is trying to kill you. It's entirely another thing if he's trying to stick you with a bunch of needles.




-k

[suoq]

"Pinhead from Hellraiser is headbutting you. What do you do?"

[Stahlseele]

give him a lobotomy with his own pricks . .

[CanRay]

Maybe something like a Bang Stick used for Shark Hunting?

[Fortinbras]

I like this, Fortinbras. And as for the laughing, if they laugh at it, then they're not likely to defend effectively, or even see it coming at first (barring NPC omnipotence).

O brother....
A stick is a long piece of wood that falls off a tree.
Schtick is an old, Yiddish Vaudeville term that means your comedy set, or the type of humor you use. As in "The clown always use his pie-in-the-face schtick!"

[redwulf25]

Same thing as a human. Just five times as much. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I was just thinking you'd need something like what the OP is describing just to get through troll hide.

[Mayhem_2006]

Now I want to stat up an NPC opponent that has very obvious armor piercing injectors on his fingers.

Just to weird out and disturb players. It's one thing if a guy is trying to kill you. It's entirely another thing if he's trying to stick you with a bunch of needles.


-k

Sounds like a character I deseigned for the Underground RPG - a genetically engineered "perfect field medic" who had armour-shredding, anaesthetic-injecting, razor sharp claws for conducting on-the-spot field surgery.

(Also had 2 heads and 4 arms, to tend to 2 casualties at once...)

[CanRay]

I was just thinking you'd need something like what the OP is describing just to get through troll hide.

A needle the same size as one for a human. Just five times the size. With a Monowire tip.

Dikoted.

[Rubic]

A lot of good replies here. To clear a few items up, I was thinking something similar to the injection arrow, rather than spiked tonfa (which would reduce the usability of the weapon as it's core design). I do understand that the weapon would be exposed to repeated trauma. In my defense, Cyberware is at least as sensitive, if not more so, copes with the SAME degree of trauma, and can offer many of the same options (cyberspurs laced with toxins, injecting finger claws, toxin/drug reservoirs). considering less functionality is used, the bulk be kept rather low, and materials such as plasteel and alloys could provide weight-specifications and resilience for proper function.

And with that post about the injection claws NPC, I now am tempted to swap a few flaws out for Phobia: Needles.