Also True... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Then again sight is impossible on the astral plane. Are you saying Counterspelling does not work on the astral plane?

I don't think it explicitly spells it out anywhere. I would go with astral magicians can only protect astrally active targets, because that's more consistent with everything else.

That's enough for me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Except you know, the whole fact that magicians can cast spells on astral forms while astral themselves, and that astral sight counts as LoS for astral forms, because you know it is astral sight. You must have LoS of a target in order to affect it with magic, if your astral that means you can only affect astral forms, if your physical that means you can only affect physical things, if you're dual-natured you can affect both. The necessary LoS to use counterspelling is the argument that proves you cannot protect physical forms while projecting with counterspelling. Saying anything else would constitute a house rule. If you're trying to say that you can't get LoS with astral sight because it's not sight, despite the fact that you can in fact target astral forms using astral sight, you are trolling.

How does one translate to the other? How does having astral perception translate into the astral equivalent of physical sight only for astral forms?

One does not necessarily need LOS to a target in order to affect it with magic, is this a general rule (with a quote to back it up, remember - you specified magic, not just sorcery or spellcasting)?

How is requiring LOS the argument that proves that you cannot protect physical forms while counterspelling?

Can you refresh my memory and give me a quote for a physical character who is dispelling not being able to affect something that is not on the astral plane or vice versa?

I do not see how providing Counterspelling from the astral plane would violate the limits of sorcery. Can you explain?

...and still nobody has mentioned SR2 or 3...I'm sure that it was possible to intercept spells from the astral?!? Granted I don't believe the counterspelling skill was quite as formulated and I rarely saw it done but still...

My vague recolection is that mage changes his aura to match the target...spell travels through the astral and goes to the matching aura (and could be intercepted at this point)...spell kills target (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Didn't work for elemental effect spells as they had a different mechanic...

I know this doesn't really help the argument...and anyway, I intended this to be a house rule not a RAW thing...seems there's mixed feeling as to whether it's a good house rule or not (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

See Quotes above that I provided. It is explicit that Sorcery cannot cross a boundry. You must be on the same plane that you are affecting.

It violates the Limits on Sorcery because Counterspelling cannot cross a Plane. As fort the Dispelling Question, it is also Explicit in the description of Dispelling (which is wholly unnecessary, as Dispelling is a Subset of Counterspelling, which is a Subset of Sorcery). I provided both quotes above. Here is the Quote for Sorcery which handles all the rest.



And again, I point out that the Limits are on Sorcery as a whole, not just on Spellcasting, otherwise it would be titled the Limits of Spellcasting, which it obviously is not.

Fair enough...it sounds like it wouldn't be a good houserule (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) ...will forget about it and find other ways to make the PC's lives difficult (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ork.gif)

I had missed the portion about Dispelling in your earlier posts, thank you for point it out.

I think my main confusion here is that there is a difference between targeting from the astral and casting a astral spell.

You cannot target FROM the Astral.
You can target ON the Astral if you are either Perceiving or Projecting
You can target ON the physical if you are not Perceiving or if you are perceiving.
You cannot Target From the Astral to the Physical in any way.

No such thing as an Astral Spell. It is a Mana Spell cast upon the Astral.

The text for Ritual Spellcasting is quite clear.

Yes but that's ritual spell-casting, which is a special and unique snowflake (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It is as unique as one of the 3 skills under Sorcery.

Bringing up other editions in a rules discussion is pointless and muddles the various legitimate points others are making, hence why it wasn't brought up.

It's special and unique as it is explicitly allowed to get around the LOS limitation. The other two skills do not have such wording and thus are not special enough to break that rule.

And is also irrelevant, since you DO NOT NEED A SPOTTER to do Ritual Spellcasting. In fact, that is the Inferior way to do Ritual Spellcasting.

Inferior to what? And how is it irrelevant to the subject of targeting from the astral?

Inferior to the Superior Methods... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
A Ritual Spell is not targeting across the planes when you are using an Astral Spotter. The target MUST BE ON THE SAME PLANE as the Caster. So, as I said earlier, Astral Spotting is Irrelevant to the conversation.

How is a Ritual Spell not targeting across the planes when you are using an Astral Spotter? Are the spotter and the target on the same plane if the spotter is astral and the target is not astrally active? Thus as I asked earlier, how is Astral Spotting is irrelevant to the conversation?

Spell Targeting takes place at the Caster's Location. All that is required when you are using a Spotter is that the Target be capable of being Assensed. Now, you can do that Physically, as is stated in the Rules, or you can use a Spirit (Who is naturally dual natured, and can assense targets both on the Astral and Physiocal Planes. Spirits are typically used for this because of the time requirements that Ritual Spellcasting demands. Unless you are casting at Forces Greater than 6 (or your Spotter Mage has a Magic Greater than 6, a Mage cannot typically perform this duty). Note that the Spotter is not actually doing anything other than extending the range of the Team's Astral Perception through the Spotter's Assensing of the Target. He is not actually involved in any casting of the ritual. It is irrelevant that the Spotter may be in the Astral at the time, he is not actually a participant for casting the spell (Though he does have a ritual link to the Team). The Spotter is just extending the range of the Ritual Team's Astral Perception (They are, in effect, Astrtally Perceiving at Range) to the target.

Using an Astral Spotter is Inferior because all you really need is a Ritual Link. With a Ritual Link (of any kind) a Spotter is not required.

The spirit need not materialise, thus it does not need to be dual natured. It is only dual natured only if it materialises. Note that the spotter must be a member of the group casting the spell. It is relevant that the spotter is in the astral at the time as he is actually a participant of casting the spell. The rules do not exclude the spotter from making the Ritual Spellcasting + Magic test. If the spotter is not actually involved in the casting of the ritual, he would not need to resist Drain in the first place.

All the spotter does is extend the Astral Perception of the Team to include the Target. That is all that he does. Proximity keeps the Ritual Spotter form participating, since participants must all be in the lodge to participate, and if he is spotting, he is not actually present to participate. How can you paritcipate in a Ritual if you are not present (either physically gone or are astrally projecting) to hear the cues, are not present to coordinate the gathering of the Mana, and are not present to actively participate? Because of this, I do not let a Spotter participate. It is because of this that a Spirit is generally used as a Spotter.

Ritual Casting in a team is rather limited as well, anyways. You can only ever add additional dice to the primary Spellcaster's Pool equal to his Skill Rating. Assuming you had a Lodge of Rating 6, a Leader with a Skill of 6, and 5 other participants, you will only ever be able to add 6 dice to his pool, regardless of the 3 successes each participant likely provided. In fact, having a Hundred members involved in a Ritual means absolutely nothing as teh Leader will still only ever be allowed to add just 6 dice to his pool. Seems like a waste of a Magician's talents to participate in a Ritual Team, beyond the 1 or 2 additional members it takes to max out the Teamwork Dice. Individual Ritual Spellcasting works so much better.

I disagree. The spotter does more than just create a magical link to the target. He actually can participate in the casting of the spell. Casting a ritual spell only makes a distinction between the leader and additional members of the team, it does not make any distinction between the spotter and other non-leader members. In fact, nothing (on p185 SR4A) stops the leader from being the spotter as well.

All members of the ritual team can participate by the very fact that they were all there in the lodge at the start of the spell, so they have a magical link with each other.