I'm pretty sure that by RAW a mage in astral space can't add counterspell D to targets of a spell on the physical plane?!?

I'm also reasonably sure that in previous versions of SR it was possible to intercept spells as the mana was channelled through the astral...

I'm considering a house rule for my Emerging games that allows (an NPC in this case) half counter spell D to be given across the astral divide as they 'astrally jam' the area against hostile spells.

Is this completely out of order / game balance disrupting? I know it runs the risk of mages staying remote from the action and just going in to counterspell / spirit attack so I thought I'd see if anyone has tried this or has strong feelings about how it would work/not work (after all DS is full of people with strong feelings )

Thanks

I think it was a good move to limit a magician's sphere of Sorcery influence to the plane in which he is acting, astral or physical. Having said that, there are already direct or indirect means by which this limitation can be circumvented. Ritual Spellcasting and the Mana Static spell are two examples. But at least these require special knowledge or partners to put into effect.

Also, there is the fact that projecting magicians can manifest, or appear on the physical. While they can't actually touch anything, I would allow a manifesting mage to cast (mana spells, at least) and counterspell (I'm not 100% sure whether the RAW already covers this, however), although I would allow enemy casters to target them with mana spells, as well as being an astral entity, similar to dual natured/perceiving characters.

Warning: only allow this if your game is insanely magic heavy (i.e. there's a magician and/or spirits on both sides in every single firefight). A manifesting magician is immune to physical harm. Letting him attack others when they can't defend is a BAD idea.

The RAW already covers this, and gives an emphatic "no!"

Agreed... Just say NO to manifesting Mages casting Spells on the Physical. Your game will thank you for it.

Fair enough.

Actually there is no restriction that the mage has to be on the same plane as the entity he tries to protect with counterspelling.

At least the description of Mana Static does not say it is active on both planes. That the spell crates background count however implies it. Make of it what you will. Single plane Mana Static is powerful enough IMHO

I'm of two minds on this as i agree that there is nothing specifically disallowing a mage from counterspelling from the astral, but it does open a slippery slope of if they can counterspell across the astral void why can't they do other things. It also encourages mage/decker-in-the-van syndrome, which I tend to like to curtail. I think the best compromise is to allow dual natured beings and manifesting forms to do so, that way people are at least aware that the counter spelling will be present.

If I remember correctly, by the rules, you must be on the same plane as your target to use Sorcery at all. Unfortunately for your argument, Counterspelling is a subset of Sorcery...

Well, you have to be able to see your target to use counterspelling, and since you cannot see physical targets, only their aura/shadow. Mana Static, like every other spell, is active on the plane it's cast on. I don't recall a rule saying background count is identical on the physical and astral plane. You have to be careful about implying anything in RAW.

I would allow them to counter spell while projecting. I mean would that really upset any balance? Now you can scout and counter spell. Woah, that's a game breaker *sarcasm*

Then by the same token, you cannot counterspell anyone in astral plane either since astral perception is not physical sight.

I only recall this for Spellcasting not the whole Sorcery Group. Care to show me where this is written?

Well spells should only work on the plane they are cast on, but according to Mana Static's description it creates Background Count. Unless Background count is purely astral, for which we have no indication, it affects both planes at least in terms of astral visibility.

Actually potentially it does affect game balance, say you have a mage who focuses on summoning and counterspelling, they can effectively dump their physical stats and never leave home in the meat, that can affect balance.

But if i limit it to half their counterspelling D then it adds a little bit of versatility but they'd still be better off in the meat?!? It's for an NPC's use mainly and is further confused by them being a dual natured were creature who is projecting in the same room as her body...but if I make it available to an NPC then the PCs need to have access to it too...?!?

That's what I call a potential build, not a game breaker. A mage who focuses on summoning and counterspelling isn't any worse then one who focuses on the opposite. Actually it wouldn't make a lick of difference. Why? Because if they focus on counter spelling that means there is an enemy mage. If there is a mage that means the astrally projecting shadowrunner may find himself on his own against a mage manabolting the crap out of him. If he happened to have a lot of spirits on standby that doesn't change the fact that the enemy mage can most likely still call for back up and then you have districts 3-6 lending their spirit support to suppress an astral assault.

Two Quotes for you...





In my opinion, Sorcery (Whether it be Casting a Normal Spell, a Ritual Spell, or protecting from such) is limited to the plane that it is used upon. The quotes above support that. If you can only cast upon a specific plane, then you can only protect upon a specific plane. Since a Projecting Magician can only affect the Astral, he may only Counterspell upon the Astral.

Seems pretty easy to me.

If that is the case, then why are they explicit about spellcasting and dispelling, but never mention being on the same plane for counterspelling? You're inferring something which doesn't exist because it supports your theory. The quotes you gave (plus the dispelling rules) actually support the opposite view.

Becauase they do not have to be explicit. Actually, they do not support the opposite view. Sorcery does not cross boundries. Counterspelling is a part of Sorcery.

Here is a Direct Quote...


Exactly which part of "Must Be On The Same Plane" is unclear?

This does not prove anything. It only shows that to dispel sustained spell you have to be on the same plane. It says nothing about whether the magician running interference has to be active on same plane as caster and target to give the target additional dice for his resistance.

As above the lack of this restriction for spell defense may be an omission or it may be the intention of the writers that this is not needed.

Ummm... youu do realize that you just quoted the dispelling section, not the counterspelling one, right? It has zero bearing on applying counterspelling dice to resistance rolls.

But it Does...

Dispelling is active use of Counterspelling.
Counterspelling is active use of Sorcery.
You MUST be on the same plane to use Sorcery.

Why is that so hard to understand?

If you cannot be targeted by a Spell across the barrier, what makes you think that you can defend against a spell across the barrier? I mean really, that makes abolutely no sense whatsoever.

Its easy to understand, and is a perfectly logic and well formed argument. Unfortunately the only thing saying that planar boundaries restrict all sorcery is you. No rule for that has been supplied.

Also, I'm not saying you can defend across the barrier. Its a gray area and I won't make a decision until I have to, at which point I'll rule in favor of the PCs unless they want it to go the other way. From then on out we'll follow that ruling unyil a real one is found or it turns out to be unbalancing.

My argument is against your lack of proof, not in favor of either side.

Since you cannot target spells across a barrier, how can you target the spell across the barrier with Counterspelling? It really is as simple as that.

Lack of Explicit Evidence saying that Counterspelling does not Cross barriers does not mean that it does. In fact, it is heavily Implied that it does not. Why should it have to be explicit? We know that active Counterspelling (Dispelling) cannot cross barriers. Why, then, should Passive Counterspelling (Spell Defense) be more powerful, especially since there is no need to defend across the barrier because you cannot even be targeted across the barrier? The explanation is Simple; It isn't.

No worries, though...

Oh, and a Quote here indicates What Sorcery is not capable of doing.



These are the Rules by which Sorcery exists in Shadowrun currently. Note that the Rules do not say Spellcasting, they say Sorcery. Again, Counterspelling is a Subset of Sorcery.

I dunno, page 185 of SR4A, "A protected character must also stay within the magician’s line of sight in order for Counterspelling to be used", is good enough for me. Sight doesn't cross the astral/physical barrier.

Also True...

Then again sight is impossible on the astral plane. Are you saying Counterspelling does not work on the astral plane?

I don't think it explicitly spells it out anywhere. I would go with astral magicians can only protect astrally active targets, because that's more consistent with everything else.

That's enough for me.

Except you know, the whole fact that magicians can cast spells on astral forms while astral themselves, and that astral sight counts as LoS for astral forms, because you know it is astral sight. You must have LoS of a target in order to affect it with magic, if your astral that means you can only affect astral forms, if your physical that means you can only affect physical things, if you're dual-natured you can affect both. The necessary LoS to use counterspelling is the argument that proves you cannot protect physical forms while projecting with counterspelling. Saying anything else would constitute a house rule. If you're trying to say that you can't get LoS with astral sight because it's not sight, despite the fact that you can in fact target astral forms using astral sight, you are trolling.

How does one translate to the other? How does having astral perception translate into the astral equivalent of physical sight only for astral forms?

One does not necessarily need LOS to a target in order to affect it with magic, is this a general rule (with a quote to back it up, remember - you specified magic, not just sorcery or spellcasting)?

How is requiring LOS the argument that proves that you cannot protect physical forms while counterspelling?

Can you refresh my memory and give me a quote for a physical character who is dispelling not being able to affect something that is not on the astral plane or vice versa?

I do not see how providing Counterspelling from the astral plane would violate the limits of sorcery. Can you explain?

...and still nobody has mentioned SR2 or 3...I'm sure that it was possible to intercept spells from the astral?!? Granted I don't believe the counterspelling skill was quite as formulated and I rarely saw it done but still...

My vague recolection is that mage changes his aura to match the target...spell travels through the astral and goes to the matching aura (and could be intercepted at this point)...spell kills target

Didn't work for elemental effect spells as they had a different mechanic...

I know this doesn't really help the argument...and anyway, I intended this to be a house rule not a RAW thing...seems there's mixed feeling as to whether it's a good house rule or not

See Quotes above that I provided. It is explicit that Sorcery cannot cross a boundry. You must be on the same plane that you are affecting.

It violates the Limits on Sorcery because Counterspelling cannot cross a Plane. As fort the Dispelling Question, it is also Explicit in the description of Dispelling (which is wholly unnecessary, as Dispelling is a Subset of Counterspelling, which is a Subset of Sorcery). I provided both quotes above. Here is the Quote for Sorcery which handles all the rest.



And again, I point out that the Limits are on Sorcery as a whole, not just on Spellcasting, otherwise it would be titled the Limits of Spellcasting, which it obviously is not.

Fair enough...it sounds like it wouldn't be a good houserule ...will forget about it and find other ways to make the PC's lives difficult

I had missed the portion about Dispelling in your earlier posts, thank you for point it out.

I think my main confusion here is that there is a difference between targeting from the astral and casting a astral spell.

You cannot target FROM the Astral.
You can target ON the Astral if you are either Perceiving or Projecting
You can target ON the physical if you are not Perceiving or if you are perceiving.
You cannot Target From the Astral to the Physical in any way.

No such thing as an Astral Spell. It is a Mana Spell cast upon the Astral.

The text for Ritual Spellcasting is quite clear.

Yes but that's ritual spell-casting, which is a special and unique snowflake

It is as unique as one of the 3 skills under Sorcery.

Bringing up other editions in a rules discussion is pointless and muddles the various legitimate points others are making, hence why it wasn't brought up.

It's special and unique as it is explicitly allowed to get around the LOS limitation. The other two skills do not have such wording and thus are not special enough to break that rule.

And is also irrelevant, since you DO NOT NEED A SPOTTER to do Ritual Spellcasting. In fact, that is the Inferior way to do Ritual Spellcasting.

Inferior to what? And how is it irrelevant to the subject of targeting from the astral?

Inferior to the Superior Methods...
A Ritual Spell is not targeting across the planes when you are using an Astral Spotter. The target MUST BE ON THE SAME PLANE as the Caster. So, as I said earlier, Astral Spotting is Irrelevant to the conversation.

How is a Ritual Spell not targeting across the planes when you are using an Astral Spotter? Are the spotter and the target on the same plane if the spotter is astral and the target is not astrally active? Thus as I asked earlier, how is Astral Spotting is irrelevant to the conversation?

Spell Targeting takes place at the Caster's Location. All that is required when you are using a Spotter is that the Target be capable of being Assensed. Now, you can do that Physically, as is stated in the Rules, or you can use a Spirit (Who is naturally dual natured, and can assense targets both on the Astral and Physiocal Planes. Spirits are typically used for this because of the time requirements that Ritual Spellcasting demands. Unless you are casting at Forces Greater than 6 (or your Spotter Mage has a Magic Greater than 6, a Mage cannot typically perform this duty). Note that the Spotter is not actually doing anything other than extending the range of the Team's Astral Perception through the Spotter's Assensing of the Target. He is not actually involved in any casting of the ritual. It is irrelevant that the Spotter may be in the Astral at the time, he is not actually a participant for casting the spell (Though he does have a ritual link to the Team). The Spotter is just extending the range of the Ritual Team's Astral Perception (They are, in effect, Astrtally Perceiving at Range) to the target.

Using an Astral Spotter is Inferior because all you really need is a Ritual Link. With a Ritual Link (of any kind) a Spotter is not required.

The spirit need not materialise, thus it does not need to be dual natured. It is only dual natured only if it materialises. Note that the spotter must be a member of the group casting the spell. It is relevant that the spotter is in the astral at the time as he is actually a participant of casting the spell. The rules do not exclude the spotter from making the Ritual Spellcasting + Magic test. If the spotter is not actually involved in the casting of the ritual, he would not need to resist Drain in the first place.

All the spotter does is extend the Astral Perception of the Team to include the Target. That is all that he does. Proximity keeps the Ritual Spotter form participating, since participants must all be in the lodge to participate, and if he is spotting, he is not actually present to participate. How can you paritcipate in a Ritual if you are not present (either physically gone or are astrally projecting) to hear the cues, are not present to coordinate the gathering of the Mana, and are not present to actively participate? Because of this, I do not let a Spotter participate. It is because of this that a Spirit is generally used as a Spotter.

Ritual Casting in a team is rather limited as well, anyways. You can only ever add additional dice to the primary Spellcaster's Pool equal to his Skill Rating. Assuming you had a Lodge of Rating 6, a Leader with a Skill of 6, and 5 other participants, you will only ever be able to add 6 dice to his pool, regardless of the 3 successes each participant likely provided. In fact, having a Hundred members involved in a Ritual means absolutely nothing as teh Leader will still only ever be allowed to add just 6 dice to his pool. Seems like a waste of a Magician's talents to participate in a Ritual Team, beyond the 1 or 2 additional members it takes to max out the Teamwork Dice. Individual Ritual Spellcasting works so much better.

I disagree. The spotter does more than just create a magical link to the target. He actually can participate in the casting of the spell. Casting a ritual spell only makes a distinction between the leader and additional members of the team, it does not make any distinction between the spotter and other non-leader members. In fact, nothing (on p185 SR4A) stops the leader from being the spotter as well.

All members of the ritual team can participate by the very fact that they were all there in the lodge at the start of the spell, so they have a magical link with each other.