I Disagree... You Can't participate if you are not there...
The fact that you MUST be in a Lodge eliminates any feasible chance of the Spotter actually participating. Why is that such a difficult thing to grasp. YOU MUST BE IN THE LODGE to use Ritual Spellcasting, or actively participate in its use. A Spotter is not likely to be in the Lodge when the Ritual is going on. If you can see your target from the Lodge, and still be IN the Lodge, why are you Ritually Spellcasting in the First Place?

I disagree. The difficulty I have with grasping it is that there is no such rule that you must remain in a lodge to actively participate or that you need to be in the lodge throughout the ritual. You need a lodge for a ritual, you need to be in the lodge at the start of the ritual, but must members of the team remain within the lodge to count towards being in the ritual team, ie make the Ritual Spellcasting + Magic check?

While a lodge is a requirement of ritual spellcasting and its Rating limits the number of participants and the members of the ritual team needs to be in the lodge at the start of the ritual, I have not found the requirement that members of the ritual team has to be in the lodge to participate in the Ritual Spellcasting + Magic check.

As with most issues, the book explains all you need to know

From SR4A Pg 184


We know ritual spellcasting does not necessarily require LoS



The rules here are quite clear, in fact I don't think they could have been written any clearer. Tymeaus, you're wrong, please open your book and read the rules. The spotter can target a physical target from the astral plane by assessing them, the rules for ritual spellcasting could not be any clearer on that front. Note that you cannot assense on the physical plane, assessing is purely done on the astral plane, so even if you travel to the target physically(perhaps because they are behind a ward), you still must astrally perceive and assense them.

Ritual spellcasting basically allows you to break the laws of sorcerery in reguards to how spells are targeted in exchange for a much longer cast time. Astral spotters are the default and easiest methods of targeting ritual spellcasting, with material links(as well as sympathetic and symbolic links) being used when a spotter is not practical.



Since dice are rolled when the ritual begins, the spotter would be able to roll dice to add to the leaders roll, they are providing magical energy just like anyone else, though they really should send out a bound spirit(who doesn't need to materialize)

Couple of things there, TheOOB...

First. I never said the Spotter had to stay in the Lodge. Go back and look. I quoted the exact same rules you did.

Secondly, I agree, the Spotter can be either Physical or Astral... Again, I did not argue that.

Thirdly, Who says the Dice are rolled at the beginning? No where does it say that. Check the rules, You quoted them. The only individual who has leeway to leave the Lodge (and thus the Ritual Team) is the Spotter, if you are using one.

Fourth, you can assense a Target from the Physical Plane, all you need to do is astrally perceive. Again, check your rules. You should know this. Thus your Spotter masy be either in the Physical Plane, or he may be in the Astral Plane.

Fifth, I never argued that you could not Assense a Physical Target from Astral when Ritually Spellcasting. Go back and check, you will see that again, I agree with you.

Sixth, YOU MUST BE IN THE LODGE TO CAST RITUAL MAGIC. That was what I was pointing out to Toturi. Because you must be IN the Lodge, a Spotter does not get to actually participate in the dice rolling, becuase he is, wait for it, NOT IN THE LODGE. Arguing that you can perform Ritual Sorcery outside of a Lodge is just ludicrous, because it requires you to have one. It is like saying that you can attune to a Focus, and then leave it at home, yet still get the benefit of the Focus. Total Crap...

In the end, You and I agree mostly on the rules. My point of contention with Toturi is that the Spotter may NOT participate in the Ritual, because he is not there. Additionally, My point is that you MUST remain in the Ritual Spellcasting Space (Your Lodge) when performing Ritual Spellcasting for the entire duration of the ritual. Anything else is ludicrous and a load of crap.

Happy Days...

No, the rules do not say that the participants must remain in the lodge to perform ritual sorcery, thus you do not need to remain in the lodge after you have participated in the dice rolling. The rules on p184-185 state what are the requirements for ritual sorcery. The members of the ritual team all get a roll. Anything else is a house rule and not RAW. You cannot bond a focus, leave it at home and still get the benefit of the focus, because it is RAW that it does not.

I try to adhere as closely to the RAW as I can. Even if it ludicrous and a load of crap. In fact, many a times Total Crap is actually quite RAW. You may not like what RAW smells like, that I understand. RAW is not everyone's favorite scent. But please do not pass off your counterfeit Ewww de House Rule for the Rules As Written in the books.

You are free to do so, but you are wrong here... Just Sayin'

You are trying to tell me that the ONE drawback to Ritual Sorcery (That you can be tracked back to a Single, Specific location, throughout the duration of the Ritual) can be completely circumvented by Making your roll in Minute 1 of the Ritual, and then leaving the Lodge to go about your business, with the Ritual Team dispersing to the winds. I call BS. It does not work that way, and I am pretty sure that you know that. The Ritual Takes Hours, and you must participate in that Ritual For Hours. You MUST be in the Lodge for the Entire Ritual. The Roll happens AT THE END of the Ritual (You cannot form a link to the target until the Spotter actually finds the target, and you do not roll until you have completed the ritual (because the roll indicates completion, as you cannot succeed uuntil you have gathered the needed Mana, and cannot "Roll" until you have it, which occurs at the end of the ritual), nothing else makes any sense), and the Spotter may not actually make a roll to assist, because he is not there. Arguing otherwise shows that you really do not understand how Ritual Sorcery Works.

What about the quote TheOOB gave from page 193

This passage says to me, that the Spotter MUST be one of the Ritual Spellcasters (or a spirit of theirs). This seems to say that the spotter CAN leave the Lodge and still participate in the Casting.

No, The Spotter MUST be a Member of the Group, or a Spirit of a member of the Group. The spotter is not a participant in the actual casting of the spell in any way, shape, or form. He is the Eyes of the Group. Nothing More. Again, it is very hard to actually participate in a Ritual if you are not present for the Ritual.

Except your making up rules without any text to back yourself up.

Unlike normal spellcasting where there is a sequence of steps to be followed (step 1, step 2, etc), Ritual Spellcasting does not. I have considered your argument and find that your argument only holds water if we assume additional limitations to ritual sorcery not explicit in the rules.

Therefore Ritual Sorcery does work the way I have stated and I am sure you know it too, just that you are not willing to admit you are wrong. Your argument simply shows you do not have the understanding of Ritual Sorcery as much as you think you have.

Please tell me how the Air Spirit Spotter takes an active role in the Actual Ritual Spellcasting. Please, I will wait while you look up any rules you may need. The fact is, it can't. So what makes you think the Magician that is spotting can do so? There does not need to be any additional limitations. To be a part of the Ritual Team, you must be in the Lodge for the Entire time. To be a Spotter, you must leave the Lodge. Ergo, you cannot be apart of the Ritual Team. It really is just that simple.

Happy Shadowrunning...

Both of us have quoted the relevant text... so it is already out there...

I never did claim that the spirit spotter which is bound by a member of the ritual team takes an active role in the Ritual Spellcasting. I claimed that all members of the ritual team makes the Ritual Spellcasting + Magic test. The fact is, the magician can but the spirit cannot as it is not a member of the ritual team. If the spirit is a member of the ritual team, then yes it can do so. There is no limitation that you have to be in the lodge the entire time to be part of the ritual team. Ergo, the spotter can be part of the ritual team, even if he leaves the lodge. It really is this simple.

And it really is just that asinine...

I just cannot see how you believe that there is no requirement for the Entire Ritual Team to be present in the Ritual Lodge during the Ritual Spellcasting of the Ritual... Notice the word Ritual there? They take time and effort and certain tools, and this is backed up by the rules in the game. You cannot get around that. Since the Ritual REQUIRES a Lodge to enact, you cannot just eliminate one of the Main Ingredients of the Ritual because you do not like it. It is a Requirement that cannot be gotten rid of, and you must be present to actually take part. It is interesting that you choose not to do so in your game, but it is not how the rules are written.

If you absolutely must have a tool to perform a job, you cannot perform that job if you ditch the tool. Nor can you choose to perform the job if you are not where the tool is located. That is just common sense.

I've never seen someone else pushing the idea that the spotter is part of the ritual team. They don't take drain, they don't contribute dice, they simply assense the target for the ritual team. It's always been this way, and I don't see any indication that it's been changed.

Exactly...
But then again, this is Toturi... where his NPC's cannot even communicate with each other because they are not listed as having any Language Skills. "Oook Oook" No Offense intended Toturi, it is just an entertaining memory from past posts...

How dare you insult the brilliant librarian by comparing him to the inept NPCs!

As for a magician spotter not contributing to the spellcasting, where does it say that? What the book actually says it this:
I can't find anything saying that someone who is part of the group can't contribute to the teamwork test.
You indeed need all the tools for a job but the tools are not always required to be in the same place to complete a job. Sometimes the exact opposite is the case. triangulation for example does not work well if everyone remains in the same place.

Because it's a very obvious assumption and writer's probably felt it didn't need to be spelled out? I really don't understand how there can be a push for this. The spotter is not casting. He is a special member of the team whose sole job is to find the targt and assense him so the spellcasting folks can target their slowly built up spell.

Exactly... Since the Spotter does not remain in the Lodge, how can he actually participate in the Spellcasting.

A ritual requires timing and coordination, and you need to be present in the actual Lodge itself to actively participate. Since you cannot be in the Lodge and Spot at the same time, and since you can no longer coordinate with the rest of the Ritual Team becasue you are no longer present to coordinate (You are spotting, after all), how do you actually expect to contribute to the Ritual? The Ritual REQUIRES you to be in the Lodge (One of the Core Requirements of performing a Ritual). Really hard to perform when you are not there.

Again, Why is this so hard to grasp? It is exceedingly obvious.

The rules don't support your claim though. Yes, the spotter has a special job, but the rules don't say it is his only one. Only the bound spirit is forbidden to participate in the casting, since he does not have ritual spellcasting and you cannot default on that skill. A magician (metahuman, critter or free spirit) who spots the target may just as well give some extra power to the spell.

@Tymeaus Jalysfein: where does it say that you have to be in the lodge the whole time? Under requirements it only says that you must have a lodge and the rating of the lodge limits the force of the spell and the number of participants. It does not say that a spotter (spirit or otherwise) does not count towards the participant limit.

When you have a requirement for an action, you cannot discard that requirement until the action is completed. That is just common sense, and should need no clarification. Why should they indicate that. It is so blatantly obvious that it needs no saying. Using your method, I don't even need to be IN the Lodge, just own it, and that is just a ludicrous statement. If you need a Lodge to use Ritual Sorcery, you Need it for the entire Ritual. Since the Spotter is NOT in the Lodge, he is not a Part of the Ritual for Spellcasting purposes. Again, anything else is ludicrous.

Or to draw a parallel. You need bullets for your gun to Shoot people. If you run out of Bullets, you can no longer shoot people with that gun. By your explanation though, all I need is to have a Single Round in the gun (I have satisfied the initial conditions for usage), and then I can shoot people endlessly (No longer need to check the conditions of usage).

Anyways...

Following your logic ritual spellcasting should be impossible. The spotter (magician or spirit) is required to be part of the group casting the ritual. He must furthermore be in the lodge at the beginning of the ritual and then travel to the target. If anyone is only part of the group as long as he is in the lodge the ritual must fail as soon as the spotter leaves the lodge.
Whether this is ludicrous or not I cannot say, but by RAW the only one who actually has to be in the lodge at any point is the spotter.

No it isn't. The spotter dopes not take part in the ritual spellcasting. He creates a link between himself and the group (Thus the requirement that he be there at the beginning of the ritual) and then completes that link when he assenses the Target. He is not casting, he is only spotting. Everyone MUST be in the Lodge, and the spotter is the ONLY one who can actually leave it. There is a difference between the requirement that the spotter must be in the Group (as a whole) and being a member of the Ritual. Not every member of the Group can (olr may) take part in the ritual.

The ritual does not fail when the Spotter leaves, because he is not actively participating in the Ritual, and because the Rules say that he is allowed to leave to spot for the group. Unfortunately for your argument, everyone else must be in the Lodge to contiunue the Ritual, otherwise the ritual fails outright, because the Lodge is an intrinsic part of the ritual itself.

No worries though...

I understand that it probably should be that way, but I don't see it in the rules.

Where does it actually say that the group casting the ritual (to which the spotter must belong) is different from the group actively casting the ritual? Where does it actually say that the spotter does not actively participate? We know that bound spirits can't participate for lack of skill, but I don't see this restriction in the rules for everyone else.

The rules say that the spotter must be one of the people casting the spell, ergo they roll dice and take drain. That's what the book says end of story. If you want to change the rules for your game, more power to you, but don't try to act like your rules are RAW, and please don't make assumptions about the rules when talking about RAW. Remember that RAW stands for "Rules as Written", and once again, the rules are very clear on this subject.

Where does it say that about the spotter?

Yes, Please point that out to me TheOOB... I bet that you can't... Because you cannot be part of the Ritual unless you stay in the Lodge...

TheOOB quoted it in post 53 I did it in post 67. In bold letters even.

Me thinks it does not say what you think it does, however...

No Where does it say what you keep implying. Ritual Members MUST be in the Ritual for the entire Ritual. Spotters need not follow that restriction, because they are not actually partaking in the Ritual of the Spell. They only act as Spotters. If you want to have them take the drain, more power to you, but since they are not actually channeling any of the mana, they should not suffer the Drain. Why are they not channeling the Mana? Because they have left the Lodge.

Your evidence is sorely lacking, and no amount of Bolding on your part is going to change that...

The spotter:
-must be "a member of the group casting the ritual spell"
-must move to the target i.e. out of the lodge
(quotes above)

The rules do not say that the spotter ceases to be part of the group casting the ritual or that it is allowed for him to quit that group. As such the spotter is indeed casting the ritual spell as "the members of the group casting the ritual spell" are indeed casting the ritual spell. The rules give no indication that it is the members of the group casting the ritual spell except the spotter who are actually casting the ritual spell.
Unless of course you are saying group=/=team. Then all bets are off as the team has never been defined.

Does casting begin the same time the ritual begins? Or does the spotter have to create the link first?

Who knows? The rules say nothing definite.

Maybe not in this edition. Pretty sure other editions spelled out the sequence of events.

Group does not Equal Team...
And yes, they have been defined, The Members of the Team are the ones actually casting the Ritual Spell...
Group usually defines either a Tradition of Magic or an Initiatory Group...

And, Since we are just going in circles, I am calling it quits, for now at least...
Been an interesting Discussion though.

It's right there in black and white. The spotter is part of the group casting the spell. If your not casting the spell, your not part of the group casting the spell, ergo you can't be a spotter.

Should I just quote my post that had all the relevant information from the book, or are you going to ask me to keep repeating information that has already been stated?

I concede the point there, but it's rather like saying the guy batting at the plate must be part of the group in the dugout.

The sentence could mean he's one of the spell casters, or he's a member of the group whose doing the spell casting.

This One... The Spotter is a Member of the Group (Large Entity), a group of which some of them are performing the Spellcasting (Small Entity). "The individual acting as the spotter must be a member of the group casting the ritual" does not mean that the Spotter is also casting the Ritual. All that means is that he belong to the group from which the Ritual Team is composed.

Anmyways...

Bigity is dead on. This sentence has two meanings depending on how you look at it. Just like a ton of other rules.

Given that a group just needs to decide which way they want to go with it. Neither is wrong by RAW as far as I can tell.

I dunno, that seems like a stretch. Does ritual sorcery even require everyone be in the same Magical Group? If so, would the Magical Group really be said to be "the group casting the ritual"? It doesn't sound like something you'd say, especially if it's a huge (membership) group with many local chapters.

Either interpretation would be fine if the portion of the rules that deal with making the Ritual Spellcasting test differentiates between members of the group (whole group) and members of the group that is doing the spellcasting. The only distinction in that section that I saw (IIRC) is between the leader and other members (the spotter is not excluded from this "other members").