Again, you're assuming that spirits are alive in the organic sense. It's not that spirits have unusual metabolisms, it's that there's nothing to suggest a spirit has any sort of metabolism. They don't eat, sleep, or breathe. Their materialized forms are formed from pure mana. What is there for Heal to affect?

Why the drama about Increase Reflexes? RAW is pretty specific in this regard: it works on materialized spirits/spirits in a living vessel. Nowhere in any rules passage do they suggest that the spell is in any way restricted to metahumans.

There's a different caveat, though: all health spells are touch spells, so you need to maintain touch to the target. Guess possession wins again.

Touch to cast, sustaining is "whatever." It doesn't even need LOS.

Do you have a page reference for that? Our group tends to rule otherwise, mostly because we haven't found a clear entry in the book.

Came up in a thread recently, I'll see if I can find a quote.

Here we go:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=34325
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=32835

I will counter your argument of "Formed from Pure Mana", and ask you this? What is there to actually Damage? How do you Damage Pure Mana?

If they have a Damage Track, and are alive, then they can be healed with magic. I am pretty sure you would not argue that spirits are Alive... Of course, I could be wrong... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


*Shrug*

Seconded.
It's simple, I like it and it can quickly become a mess to mix shadowrun magic and traditional physics. I just don't see any rules that actually forbid a use for spirits. Neither do I see a big isssue of game balance. Well, I don't do that often anyway... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The same way you damage a Physical Barrier spell, which is also constructed of mana: objects intruding into the volume occupied by a materialized spirit, whether bullets, melee weapons, or fists, disrupt the cohesion of the mana field. Thus, when a spirit reaches the end of its damage track, it doesn't die, it just loses its grip on physical reality and is forced to retreat to the metaplanes. I certainly would argue with the assertion that spirits fit any biological definition of life; as I previously noted, they perform no biological functions whatsoever. I would argue that spirits represent a non-biological form of life, in the sense that they exhibit activity independent of their surroundings, and manifestly have the capacity to reason and communicate. Indeed, the very fact that spirits cannot die is the primary argument against their being biologically alive: everything that lives (biologically speaking) can die. If it can't die, it can't really be alive.

But a Spirit can be permanently destroyed (in effect, it can Die). You have to kill them on their home metaplane, however. So, by your definition (Bolded above), a Spirit IS ALIVE, and, at that point, should be able to benefit from Healing, magical or otherwise.

IE's and Great Dragons are Functionally Immortal. Spirits are Functionally Immortal. All three can be damaged, and all three can be permanently killed. All three can heal over time (which indicates some sort of Biological mechanism at work, as they heal their wounds), so why would Magic not be able to speed that process up?

That just means it's a bad definition. They're not biological life, period. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Now, decide what that means RE: drugs, health spells, etc.

And there you are assuming again. A spirit's ability to reconstitute itself does not necessarily imply any biological mechanism or process at all. I would liken it to the manner in which crystals grow by absorbing minerals from the surrounding medium. Biology requires differentiation: blood, organs, bones, and so forth. If you cut into a spirit, what do you find? I seriously doubt it would be anything recognizable as an organ.

As for spirits being able to "die," that's also an assumption. Yes, they can be destroyed, but in what way is that analagous to biological death? You have to literally travel to another world, find its True Name, and unravel the part of physical reality that allows the spirit to exist. Technically, you don't need to be in contact with the spirit at all. A spirit cannot be destroyed, or even permanently injured, by physical trauma. Therefore, it cannot die in the biological sense.

And yet a Single Celled organism is still alive... A Virus is Alive...

Potayto, Potahto... Suffice it to say that I disagree with you on that... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

As for Permanent Destruction by Physical Trauma... What would you call filling it's Damage Track on its Home Plane... I would call that Physical Trauma that results in Destruction. Anything else is just semantics... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The whole 'is a virus alive?' isn't a settled fact. But it doesn't matter, because 'alive' isn't the question. 'Biological, carbon-based life form' is.

Please, Show me where it requires a target to be a "Biologocal, Carbon-Based Lifeform" to target with a Spell...

Most Health Spells are Mana Based...
Attribute Affecting Spells Must be Physical Based...







NO Where can I find a Documented Quote that requires your target to be a Carbon-Based Lifeform when it comes to Health Spells (or any spell for that mattter)...

Can a Mana Bolt affect a Spirit? Yes, therefore the Requirement for having a Living Being as a target has been met (Mana can only target living beings after all). Since that requirement has been met, any Health Spell can also work against a Spirit. Of course, if you are going to target a Spirit with an Attribute affecting spell, it must be Materialized.

You cannot have it both ways...

Just Sayin' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

*shrug* That wasn't what we were talking about. You and others were arguing that a spirit, a virus, a horse, a dog etc. were all equivalent living creatures. They're not. They're different. You're the one who said 'biological mechanism'. Fikealox quoted Street Magic regarding 'organic systems'.

I can certainly have it both ways. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Number 5 is Alive!

Drugs I would definitely disallow. The rules don't need to specify what elements drugs need to be effective because we already know that bodily organs are necessary. We also know that spirits can mimic eating but not gain sustenance which implies an inability to incorporate material into their being.

As for Heal, well there's no question the rules are missing a sentence or two. Personally I'd disallow as it is asking the spell to do two very different things. I suppose a view of SR magic that considered the actual mechanics of a spell to be little more than simply re-writing the universe to make an effect 'just happen' like a pre-chosen wish one could call it a 'make something less hurt' spell, but I prefer to assume spells have an inner logic (if you will) involving processes and reactions not totally dissimilar from the machinations of a gun, say. That makes more sense than the alternative when one considers the existence of spell formulae and multi-million nuyen corporate research. I say spells are not general enough in scope for one to be able to do both.

Re: the combat spell comparison. You can shoot holes in both glass and fabric with the same gun, but only one can be fixed with needle and thread.

On the other hand, one could argue that a healing spell just reinstates a being as it should be: A living being has an aura, damages are noteable in it (via assensing). The spell simply locates those disturbances and removes them.
Voila, healing effect that does not exclude spirits.
Although I just did, reasoning magic with physics (or biology, in this case) doesn't really get one anywhere. At least that's my opinion...

This seems to be the text passage fikealox was mentioning:

It reasons about a whole different matter and only mentions "organic system" on a sidenote. To me, this is far too less for a clear ruling. I prefer my rules clear, though SR4 is lacking that sometimes. So it might be even RAW, yet I don't think it's RAI.

I don't think drugs should work for a spirit, too. The rules allow it. So this might be time for some house rule, should the need arise.
It just seems that I view the matter of a health spell just different from others in this thread... To me, spells are mostly "they work just fine, that's it. Hey, it's magic."

He's a cog-based lifeform. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Point Taken... An no you can't... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Um, turns out those Spam messages about Spirit enhancement *DO* work. But it's bigger than my head now. A lot bigger. And angrier. And hungry.

...

Help.