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#76
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 328 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,353 ![]() |
Can I ask how these two guns bypass the Availability limit? I assume suoq's talking about the fact they have restricted instead of illegal sound suppressors on the HK-227 and being "ceramic" but restricted on the Elan. However, I'm of the opinion that the legality rules of Shadowrun are messed up, and despite my general distaste on doing it, be given over to GM fiat. That way old women can get plastic lacing for their osteoporosis. On a related note, I used to like the Smartgun more than the HK-227. Nowadays, I'm more iffy on the subject. Cheaper and 4 more rounds for a firing mode I'll never use? I'm fine with that trade. However since the Smartgun has Gas-Vent 2, you can't add Gas Vent 3 until you take out the old Gas Vent 2. I'm unsure if you can remove the gas vent mod (technically you can, but I could see GMs blocking it). If you can take it out, it isn't too bad, just have the armorer pool or a contact (in Missions it'll cost you 400Y). If you can't, the HK-227 wins since you can put a GV3 on it. |
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#77
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Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,168 Joined: 15-April 05 From: Helsinki, Finland Member No.: 7,337 ![]() |
Oh, I personally prefer(depending on character) to get more bare-bones weapons and then customizing them. I just like tinkering, I guess. On my sam, I even started him with a pretty high Armoring skill to show that part of things that he does. He helps the team's weapons out like this as well.
And I can see the thing with R vs. F. I was thinking more of the Availability number bypassing(in other words, you are allowed forbidden tech from a character by RAW-unless they changed something, but I do have most of the rulebooks and splats-it was the availability number that the book restricted.) That being said, again, I threw those out the window for chargen, and basically wing it in game(I use the number for the die rolls, sure, but I'll handwave something if I think they can get it or not.) And yeah, I think some of the Availability bits are nonsensical as well(the perfectly, 100% LEGAL, easier on the system but more expensive Bone Density Augmentation vs. the Bone Lacing which is harder on the system, cheaper but otherwise does the same damn thing but it's forbidden? Eh? Does. Not. Compute.) |
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#78
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Prime Runner Ascendant ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 ![]() |
I assume suoq's talking about the fact they have restricted instead of illegal sound suppressors on the HK-227 and being "ceramic" but restricted on the Elan. However, I'm of the opinion that the legality rules of Shadowrun are messed up, and despite my general distaste on doing it, be given over to GM fiat. That way old women can get plastic lacing for their osteoporosis. On a related note, I used to like the Smartgun more than the HK-227. Nowadays, I'm more iffy on the subject. Cheaper and 4 more rounds for a firing mode I'll never use? I'm fine with that trade. However since the Smartgun has Gas-Vent 2, you can't add Gas Vent 3 until you take out the old Gas Vent 2. I'm unsure if you can remove the gas vent mod (technically you can, but I could see GMs blocking it). If you can take it out, it isn't too bad, just have the armorer pool or a contact (in Missions it'll cost you 400Y). If you can't, the HK-227 wins since you can put a GV3 on it. I don't know... the Ingram Smartgun is a package of Awesome, right out of the box, and for less cost. Easy to get, and easily disposable. After all, it is the Street Samurai's best friend. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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#79
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,272 Joined: 22-June 10 From: Omaha. NE Member No.: 18,746 ![]() |
The Ingran and the HK227 both have integral SOund Suppressors, which should change the availability to Forbidden, rather than Restricted. The Elan is Ceramic Yes? That is also Forbidden Tech, except in the Elan's case, in which case it is Restricted. This I don't know... the Ingram Smartgun is a package of Awesome, right out of the box, and for less cost. Easy to get, and easily disposable. After all, it is the Street Samurai's best friend. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Unmodifed, purchased during a run, I like the Ingram. Starting character for Missions where I can mod the heck out of it, I like the HK227. Put me behind the screen and make it non-Missions and there's a big F on both of them. That doesn't mean you can't buy them, own them, carry them, or face them in combat. Just don't get caught with the dang things. |
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#80
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Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,168 Joined: 15-April 05 From: Helsinki, Finland Member No.: 7,337 ![]() |
I do admit, I do chuckle a bit in general at Shadowrun vs. RL, where RL, to my knowledge(I guess depending where you live), being caught with an SMG in general, supressed or not, is a big no no. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
Shadowrun? As long as it's loud, you can get a permit(well, for the R rated stuff. Not F.) Hell, there's some pretty scary stuff that's available with a permit. I STILL, to this way, want to know the logic behind making Bone Lacing forbidden. Is it the inate armor? Thinking about it that's the only difference(if I'm not mistaken, Rating 4 bone density gives 1 extra die to regular damage resistance above Titanium Bone Lacing, even.) Really the Inate armor is the only thing I can think of. I mean, I guess if I squint I'd be willing to say the inate armor rating might be enough to slap an R on it, but F? I can't see it. Now that it's pointed out I can see a Forbidden for silencers and sound suppressors and understand that, but this one really just goes over my head. |
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#81
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,272 Joined: 22-June 10 From: Omaha. NE Member No.: 18,746 ![]() |
I do admit, I do chuckle a bit in general at Shadowrun vs. RL, where RL, to my knowledge(I guess depending where you live), being caught with an SMG in general, supressed or not, is a big no no. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) I like to think of it as "Shadowrun is to the U.S. as the U.S. is to India". It's just a different culture. My son, in his second year of summer camp with the boy scouts has shot a rifle (next year, shotgun) and completed his Firearm Hunter Education. My former co-workers from India, when told there's a shooting range in town where they can rent guns, were confused at the concept. |
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#82
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,899 Joined: 29-October 09 From: Leiden, the Netherlands Member No.: 17,814 ![]() |
I don't get the BDA/BL difference in legality either. It's been explained as "legislation not catching up with Bioware yet", but that sounds rather thin.
I read somewhere there was supposed to be a device to detect bioware, either in Augmentation or Arsenal, but because publication dates of those two were switched it fell through the cracks, or something like that. |
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#83
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Prime Runner Ascendant ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 ![]() |
I don't get the BDA/BL difference in legality either. It's been explained as "legislation not catching up with Bioware yet", but that sounds rather thin. I read somewhere there was supposed to be a device to detect bioware, either in Augmentation or Arsenal, but because publication dates of those two were switched it fell through the cracks, or something like that. Well, there is a device to detect Bioware. Unfortunately, it requires a Full Body, intensive scan, which takes time, and requires a fairly well stocked medical facility (and has a Threshold of 20, if I remember correctly). There is no handheld device to do that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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#84
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 236 Joined: 19-March 11 Member No.: 24,929 ![]() |
Well, there is a device to detect Bioware. Unfortunately, it requires a Full Body, intensive scan, which takes time, and requires a fairly well stocked medical facility (and has a Threshold of 20, if I remember correctly). There is no handheld device to do that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) There's a hand held device to check for bioware. Admittedly it takes a lot of time, you have to strap the person be "scanned" to the table, and they probably won't survive. It's called a knife. |
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#85
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Prime Runner Ascendant ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 ![]() |
There's a hand held device to check for bioware. Admittedly it takes a lot of time, you have to strap the person be "scanned" to the table, and they probably won't survive. It's called a knife. But you may still never see the Bioware that the victim may, or may not, have... Since they look like normal organs, for the most part, in a lot of cases. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) |
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#86
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Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,168 Joined: 15-April 05 From: Helsinki, Finland Member No.: 7,337 ![]() |
This might actually be good for another thread-or hell, this one it might not be that offtopic on.
But looking over the list, there are indeed items that make sense that are restricted with a permit-basic guns and knives, for example. Very believable. And in a world like Shadowrun, it makes sense maybe some of the bigger stuff you can't get so easy IRL has an R on it instead of an F. F seems to mostly be the realm of A. Military or high end law enforcement gear(and this is understandable), or B. Stuff that's *obviously* used for shady things(Voice secondary patterns). That being said...I think it's the cyber that's harder for me to grasp why the ratings and the Legal/R/F tags are on them. There isn't really full RL counterparts(well, okay, there are some pretty awesome robotic hands out these days I've seen in videos.)There isn't a *whole* lot of forbidden ware. Some guns(which, IMO, match up with the ordinary guns anyway.) Besides that, the forbidden Cyber/Bio I've found(just using SR4A here for now): Cortex Bombs(yeah, these need no explanation) Voice Mod(Secondary Pattern is F, without this it's perfectly legal, and understandable why the secondary pattern is illegal) Bone Lacing(The biggest question mark of them all) Cyberarm Gyromount(I suppose they assume if you have one of these you have something that *needs* one of these, so yeah, understandable) Blades. Here is another question mark-maybe. The only forbidden melee weapon in SR4A is the Monowhip(which I can see why for sure.) All other blades and swords and other stabby things you can get a permit for. I imagine this includes the ability to hide them on your person. The minute you INSTALL a blade, it's forbidden. Besides the Grenade Launcher in a cyberarm(understandable), that's all the forbidden ware in SR4A, and I admit, the only ones I really agree with are the Cortex bombs, Voice mod copying, and the gyromount. IMO? If you get a damned combat axe, unless you're some kinda futuristic lumberjack, you're using that for a weapon. You can have a permit for this, but not a set of hand razors? Next up, is the Bioware. I question a couple of these limitations as well. Adrenaline Pump(I guess i can see why this is forbidden, someone sending this into overload might be a bit...jumpy? Not 100% sold though) Suprathyroid(What? Why is this forbidden? All it does is make you a little stronger, faster and tougher while requiring you to eat twice as much. For around the same price-and not much essence difference, someone can get 1 level each of muscle aug/toner-low Avail, just need a permit-a reaction enhancer for the same, and a level of legal bone density and basically get the same result as this for some reason illegal thing. Oh, they wouldn't need to eat twice as much.) Pheremones(I'm...a little weird on these. I think, given their social manipulation thing, I can understand why they'd want these to be illegal.) Damage Compensators and the Pain Editor: I CAN understand why they might want to make these illegal. On one hand, you can see them used for something cool(a pro stunt guy might be pretty awesome with these), on the other, it could be bad in the wrong hands. I guess I sometimes think about things like-if you can get a permit for an assault rifle-which is likely not used to hunt rabbits, unless their Giant Australian Mutant Rabbits-that can be used for good or ill as well. I'm a little torn. Definite restriction at least, I'm not saying 'make em legal.' (For the record, I have very little problems with R ratings; I can certainly see why most of this stuff should need a permit at least.) I'd even consider in my games turning most of these to R unless I can really see a reason why they should stay fully illegal. (Not all of course-I'd definitely leave the cortex bombs, secondary pattern, milspec cyberweapons and pheremones as an F-with an 'undecided' on a couple other things.) |
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#87
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Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,431 Joined: 3-December 03 Member No.: 5,872 ![]() |
Going back to sensitive system for a bit, I never had a problem with it. It is a hit to your effectiveness no matter what you are playing, mages almost need eyes at the least so even they are hit by it. Also it does something I like, it reinforces the thematic concept of mages and ware not mixing. Heck I almost think it should be given to all awakened and have in include bioware as part of buying the awakened perks. Honestly I'm not that worried about the "balance or fairness" of those 35 points. I think they are mostly there to add flavor, not to gimp the players in some gotcha trap.
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#88
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Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
If we're talking about nailing magicrun, yes: make them all Sensitive/bioware innately. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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#89
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Old Man of the North ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 10,230 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 ![]() |
I've never ascribed to the 'magicrun' view that Shadowrun has gone too far in empowering Magic. Nevertheless, I would have no trouble with a future edition making Magic incompatible with any and all implants.
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#90
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,088 Joined: 3-October 09 From: Kohle, Stahl und Bier Member No.: 17,709 ![]() |
If you want to get truly weird things with availability, try building a guy with a lot of counter-biometric implants.
A cyber Voice Modulator with Secondary Pattern has avail. R*3 F and costs R*5000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , or you can get the nanoware Voice Mimic for a flat 16F at R*3000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . Fingerprints can be removed with a minor cosmetic modification (see p. 61 Augmentation), avail. 4 and 100-2000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , or with Print Removal genetech, avail. 8F and 25,000¥. Retinal Duplication (cyber) and Retinal Adjusters (nano) both have an availability of 16F, however the cutting-edge nanoware costs 5000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per Rating and the cheap old cyber goes for three times the price (admittedly these two are not completely identical, Retinal Duplication is compatible with other eyeware). And without looking into Spy Games, I bet that the availability and cost of the new "face morphing" cyberware is totally inconsistent with the False Front from Agumentation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) |
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#91
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Prime Runner Ascendant ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 ![]() |
If you want to get truly weird things with availability, try building a guy with a lot of counter-biometric implants. A cyber Voice Modulator with Secondary Pattern has avail. R*3 F and costs R*5000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , or you can get the nanoware Voice Mimic for a flat 16F at R*3000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . Fingerprints can be removed with a minor cosmetic modification (see p. 61 Augmentation), avail. 4 and 100-2000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , or with Print Removal genetech, avail. 8F and 25,000¥. Retinal Duplication (cyber) and Retinal Adjusters (nano) both have an availability of 16F, however the cutting-edge nanoware costs 5000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per Rating and the cheap old cyber goes for three times the price (admittedly these two are not completely identical, Retinal Duplication is compatible with other eyeware). And without looking into Spy Games, I bet that the availability and cost of the new "face morphing" cyberware is totally inconsistent with the False Front from Agumentation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) So you have different approaches to doing the same thing... And what, exactly is the problem with that? Yes, some are suboptimal, but again I say so what. That is how many things in real life are developed. Eventually, the suboptimal ones will fall away, or become niche for some reason that is not obvious, while the other will take off and dominate the market until something better comes along. Any one remember Betamax? Or how about Audio Tapes? You can still get both if you look hard enough... |
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#92
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,272 Joined: 22-June 10 From: Omaha. NE Member No.: 18,746 ![]() |
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#93
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Prime Runner Ascendant ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 ![]() |
For Christmas I got a collection of Tom Waits on heavyweight vinyl. Then again, I don't consider that "suboptimal", the sound is incredible. I hear that a lot. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) My parents still have a lot of Vinyl, and they do sound incredible. |
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#94
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Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
Though digital can always sound better. You can even imitate the vinyl imperfections that people seem to like so much.
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#95
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Prime Runner Ascendant ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 ![]() |
Though digital can always sound better. You can even imitate the vinyl imperfections that people seem to like so much. This is true... And digital is how it is now done. But you still have die hards who stick to the old stuff. Which is why having 5 different ways to do something with various types of ware is a good thing in my opinion. Even if some of those methods are not optimal. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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#96
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,272 Joined: 22-June 10 From: Omaha. NE Member No.: 18,746 ![]() |
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#97
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Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,431 Joined: 3-December 03 Member No.: 5,872 ![]() |
If we're talking about nailing magicrun, yes: make them all Sensitive/bioware innately. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) For me it is not so much the nailing of magicrun, but I just liked the thematic element from the 1e era that magic and ware don't mix. I liked that mages were at a penalty when on the matrix, I liked that ware of any amount was seen as a big hamper to your magic even if after various supplements mechanically it wasn't as bad. While there are a lot of things I prefer as the system evolved, the thematic elements of 1e era shadowrun to me have never been beat. |
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#98
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Advocatus Diaboli ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 ![]() |
I agree, just being a little slangy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Obviously, Essence Loss/Magic Loss is already part of it, but clearly many people work around that to be very powerful.
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#99
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,088 Joined: 3-October 09 From: Kohle, Stahl und Bier Member No.: 17,709 ![]() |
So you have different approaches to doing the same thing... And what, exactly is the problem with that? The problem is that the new high tech nanomagic is cheaper and easier to get than cyber which has been around for 20 years. And from a design standpoint, two items in the same book, one of which is made obsolete by the other, is not the most elegant work |
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#100
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,946 Joined: 1-June 09 From: Omaha Member No.: 17,234 ![]() |
And without looking into Spy Games, I bet that the availability and cost of the new "face morphing" cyberware is totally inconsistent with the False Front from Agumentation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Well lets be honest they've all had that problem, Augmentation has Encephelon I which costs oodles of essence for what it does and a substantial amount of money. For the same cost and a fraction of the essence you can get Pushed which does the job better. I doubt i'm the first to discover this but it did annoy me last night while I stumbled over it. |
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