So, after the (to me anyway) sudden uprising against the Sensitive System quality in the Pacifism thread, I'm curious as to what other qualities (positive and negative), gear, software, abilities, etc. people have effectively "banned" at their table.

I've been amused with the "Sensitive System" responses because it's one of the qualities (such as "Restricted Gear") that doesn't really impact play once the session starts. Sure, the character isn't going to get ware, but that's the player's intent anyway. Then again. any "disadvantage" is, when you look at it, something the player intends to impact the game in a way they either enjoy or don't mind. I want to find the table where the GM tries to shift the player away from something like Sensitive System and towards something like, for example, Combat Monster, which is going to be a lot more disruptive to the game.

So I'm trying to think of other cheese people will claim they would ban that just doesn't get talked about here. I understand we're used to things like the Emotitoy. I'm more interested in things like Technomancer faces (Complex Forms: Empathy Software and Simrig), the HK-227X (It's only Restricted?), Dermal Sheathing (It's not even restricted?), Glamor, or other things your (or other people's) players have tried to get away with over the years.

Where does the cheese just get too stinky for your tastes?

Okey, i'm seriously wondering if we're reading the same thread or not, considering i'm not seeing anykind of "uprising" in that thread.

No one said anything about banning sensitive system. They said don't be a munchkin and take it if you don't intend to get any ware.

I personally only smack players for trying to take it if their character already has some reason they wouldn't take 'ware.

Like, for example, no, your pixie power mage can't take it, cos he really can't take 'ware anyhow. There's no negative impact.

But the mundane guy who wants to make a skill-based character? He could benefit greatly from 'ware. If he chooses to take Sensitive System, it's fine with me, even if he never takes any 'ware. Because 'ware is a viable source of advantages and power for that character, and Sensitive System cripples that source. It has actual impact on him.



-k

Even if the character is taking ware, it's not necessarily an issue.
For awakened characters, any ware less than .5 is not an issue. Any ware greater than 1.5 is cost-ineffective.
For non-awakened characters it's not an issue at all. The moment it becomes an issue, the character can't be built.

So yes, effectively it's banned by those GM's who consider it being a munchkin for unwired characters to take. There's a small window where it's 5 free points instead of 15 free points, but it's either free points or worthless. It doesn't impact play, it only impacts character creation, except for a couple edge cases.

For a mage, it's a choice. Take the cybereyes or take the sensitive system. (Or work the cybereyes to be .5 essence or less and take both). I can't think of any ware a technomancer even needs off the top of my head, so it seems like a no-brainer for technomancers to take unless you don't care about the points (understandable, but technomancers can always use some more points) or you already have the disadvantages you want (also understandable). But I can't think of a reason for a technomancer to take it that some GM won't call "munchkin" on.

So yes, if you're saying "don't be a munchkin and take it if you don't intend to get any ware", you're really saying "it's banned", because once character creation is over, it's never going to impact the character as much as other -15 BP qualities.

I'm fine with it being banned. I'm just fascinated by the stance people are taking on it.

People don't upgrade their ware/buy new ware in your games?



You're discussing a stance no one is taking. No one said anything about banning it.

It's like the thread this discussion spun off from. Don't take Sensitive System if you're not going to take ware, just like you don't take pacifist and then shoot people in the face with your drones BFG.

It's not a question of banning. There's a simple general rule: a Negative Quality is invalid if it doesn't hurt you. Sensitive System skirts that line, because avoiding 'ware is very close to 0% hurtful for certain characters (i.e., many Awakened/Emergent). It does restrict their future options, etc.

It's not the most blatant example, and (personally) it's more in the 'mitigated so it's worth less' category (like paraplegic hackers, etc.). Such examples are available in the RAW, with 'mitigated' NQs being worth less BP. Sensitive System, for Awakened/Emergents, could easily be a 5 or 10 BP NQ. It depends on the group, the GM, the players…

Clearer examples of fully invalid NQs are also available. Say, Incompetent (Pilot Suborbital). And so on.

There are generally two schools of thought on Qualities - either it's a simple point-buy system for building an optimal character from the options available, or it is a way to aid role-playing and character development by making more interesting and unique shadowrunners.

Role-players find Sensitive System to be a cop-out since it is rarely used to add drama or characterization to a Shadowrunner - it is bought, worked around, and ignored. Getting those same points from having a tragic background and some enemies might not be in the character's best interest, but it is in the best interest of the story. (I have to admit, I used Sensitive System as a tragic background for my Rigger, but I'm probably the exception)

Advocates of the point-buy philosophy see Sensitive System as easy points; a well-planned character who takes it will suffer less from it then they would from most other choices. Barring forced implantation, the GM can't use Sensitive System to screw you. This is unbalanced in the player's favor, and the argument for and against it is pretty much along the lines you would expect - depending on who you ask, it's either a great trick or a dirty cheat.

Personally, I think that the GM deserves to have veto power over the entire rulebook, and I think that it doesn't get used often enough. One thing that Shadowrun lacks is any sort of progression from "rookie with a scrounged 9mm" to "cyborg war hero with an AI-driven rocket launcher". If a GM allows the entire RAW at character creation, then he's committing to a high-power campaign, and that's not necessarily the best place to start. I'm not saying ban things, but don't let them *start* with armored trucks and assault cannons unless you *want* to be running a war zone.

I'm lucky. I fell into a group with FOUR other GMs. I haven't gotten to just play like this in... Wait. I've never had it this good. I have home campaign notes, but if I keep up this lucky streak I'll never have to use them.

That being said. This is what I, personally am used to:
1) If one of my characters had the nuyen to buy new ware, he'd retire.
2) If someone was offering me new ware, I'd be really paranoid about what's going into my body.

Sure, there are games out there where the secondhand ware is trustworthy and the pirated software is clean as a whistle, but while I'm not a fan of the "the whole world is a horrible dystopia" line, I still don't trust gift horses.


Shouldn't that be "Don't take Sensitive System if you're not going to take ware, just like you don't take pacifist if you're not going to hurt people." That makes a much better analogy to me. The whole point of "pacifist" is to remove a choice that the player didn't intend on making in the first place. You don't take pacifist if you're going to shoot people because you take it NOT to shoot people. You don't take Sensitive System if you're going to take ware because you take it as the reason your character doesn't and isn't planning on getting ware.


The thing is, even Incompetent (Pilot Groundcar) isn't that much of a handicap. Chances are someone else on the team is driving anyway. In many locations today it's not even a handicap (New York City and London both leap to mind). A bunch of the 5 point ones seem that way to me. Weak Immune System for example. "-2 dice pool to resist diseases." Really. Not even a "and you can't roll edge"? Was that ever intended to have a game impact? It's even written in such a way as to encourage those with .002 essence left to take it as a disadvantage.

Interesting... New Ware is not all that expensive, actually. I am amazed that you never purchase ware after character creation. Kind of hard to retire on 50,000 Nuyen after all (expecially since most Ware is cheaper than 50,000 Nuyen).

Hmmm. 10 months of a nice middle lifestyle or buy more ware and keep getting shot at.

I'd definitely consider a nice long vacation, and not in Bogata. I'm imagining what Philip Marlowe or Sam Spade, would do with that kind of dough, and I'm imagining a room over a bar, not a better gun, car, suit, and office.

I think one of my personal character issues is that none of my characters WANT to be shadowrunners. Some sample backgrounds trimmed to short.

• "Burn Notice" except from the mafia.
• Ares gun salesman to the rich and powerful suddenly finds himself unemployed and unemployable.
• Docwagon employee wondering why he gets paid so much less than shadowrunners to go in there and pull them out.

All of these characters had a plan. Shadow running is what happened to them when the plan failed. I understand that there are people who can get behind a character who likes doing this and isn't suicidal, but I'm not one of those people. For example, I could never play (in a game) Ed Moseby (Mickey Rourke's character in Domino). I simply don't understand the character. Maybe this is all he knows, and this is all he's good at, but such a character doesn't seem to be going anywhere to me. They're already there.

I already replied in the other thread, but I think sensitive system is basically a character growth limiter. Any character growth limiter is inherently cheesy, because they are nearly always taken for areas the player doesn't plan to develop more than minimally, in the first place. You won't see a budding face take uncouth. You won't see the street samurai take sensitive system. You won't see the hacker take sim vertigo. You will see the troll muscle take uncouth, the bioware-enhanced adept take sensitive system, and the neo-Luddite mage take sim vertigo.

Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with having a problem with it, either. I'm only saying, don't be a dick about it. Like me with the ever-popular emotitoy ban. If I got a player with a fuzzy cat toy emotitoy, I would just say, "Sorry, but emotitoys are banned in my games." That's all. There's no call for whining, name-calling, or finger-pointing over it.

And you damn well bet if I'm running that will actually bite him the ass like a negative quality should.



Not in any game I'm running. That's munchkin cheese along the lines of the "Geas: Being Alive" brought up in the other thread. If I wanted players to have free points I'd start them with more BP/Karma when you take a negative quality it should be a negative.

Sensitive system is a bit different; if you force cyberware on an awakened character (as a GM), then you're being a tool. If you don't, then you're giving them free points. There's not really a middle ground on this particular flaw. Uncouth can EASILY be called out in a "Fish out of water" manner, but how can you do that with Sensitive System, really? Lost essence = wasted BP/Karma that could go elsewhere.

Suoq it's the second time in a thread you've mentioned hawking your characters ware as a viable alternative to starting shadowrunning or not upgrading your ware because it is theoreticly viable to retire that money. I don't buy either bit of logic, if your an ex-commando with a 250,000 dollars worth of ware in you your looking at 25-50kk maximum, that's going to buy you a couple years maximum at medium lifestyle. In that exchange you've gone from being someone able to handle themselves in the rough and tumble world of Shadowrun to what we might refer to as "a victim".

Not a good career move if you ask me.

I've always felt that retirement level for my characters is less measured in raw money and buying a permanent lifestyle and more in having the right contacts to get out of the game and stay out or at least get into a position where I profit off runners rather then do Shadowruns myself.

I must be misunderstanding. In this case I thought it was "You've saved up 50 grand, cash, why aren't you buying ware?" To which I wonder, why? That just gets me deeper into the shadows, and my characters goals tend to be, oddly enough. get out of the shadows. Maybe I should play an Ed Moseby someday, but I don't see the avenues for character growth. I'm not saying they're not there, I'm just saying I don't see them.


And I believe that 50 grand could be better saved against the day where you can become the gunsmith, or the fixer, or REMF for a merc squad than spent on letting some street doc go digging in my military ware. To you, does your ex-commando with a 250,000 dollars worth of ware need more ware if his goal is to get into a position where he profits off runners rather then do Shadowruns himself? What does your ex-commando do when he's banked 50 grand?

But you're a much better person to ask than myself, since you've been running Missions and non-Missions longer and more often than me. How often do people upgrade their ware at the tables you sit at? (GM or player)

Unless you're playing one of those races that can only take delta, I allow sensitive system. 'ware is really powerful, and even mages are better off with it.

Ex-commando might be a bad example as most of them that i've known (and therefore those who i've modeled character after) were adrenaline junkies and thrills seekers. So they used that 50k on better ware and thought it a good investment.

PS. It's 4AM+ go to bed.

I'm sort of on the fence about Sensitive System. A mage with cybereyes certainly has a right to it; he loses precious fractions of Essence he might have used to buy some other interesting 'ware. But a character who wouldn't really want 'ware anyways, I'd call it cheesy.

I've got a much bigger beef with stuff like Incompetent: Blades for the Unarmed Adept.

I think emotitoys are cute; I just don't allow them to give a big bonus to social rolls. But you could use them as a sort of improvised lie detector, if you don't feel the need to be taken seriously.

I might ban SnS, or restrict it only to shotguns. Because they're a bit too good, and they damage the niche for tasers.

It usually goes like this: I could save this 50k it took me three months to save and keep saving it until I get 500k to retire -IF- I survive until then -OR- I take this 50k and spend it right now in gear or ware to give me an edge so I can survive more easily and be able to take more money.

I know this is kind of a vicious cycle but in the end of the day what does it matter if you were 10k away from retirement if the corp you were invading gave you the permanent-no-going-back-kind of retirement?

Note that the character with the sensitive system (that's what this discussion is about after all) isn't likely to be buying more ware.
Neither is the awakened character at the edge of losing more magic.
Neither is the character already out of essence.

The only characters likely to buy ware are the characters whose creators either:
1) planned to have them buy ware during the game at character creation.
2) learned something that has encouraged them to make new choices for the character.

I don't know what's on your shopping lists, but ware is very rarely, if ever on mine. I'm curious as to what ware other people have bought over their careers since it seems to be a surprise to people that my characters tend not to. What ware have people bought for your characters POST char creation and why didn't they start with it?

What about 'ware with an availability above what's accessible at CharGen?

I think it is interesting in a game called shadowrun, where the characters are shadowrunners, some characters have motivations to stop being shadowrunners. It is a completely logical, sensible move for the average person. I know if I became a shadowrunner, I’d want to get out of the shadows ASAP. OTOH since Shadowrun is fun, I want to play a character that goes on shadowruns, regardless of the fact that he could do legal activities, or become a fixer (being a fixer is where the real money is at, and you are almost never shot).

I guess what I’m saying, is that while 99% of the runners in the shadows may want to get out, I have found it more fun to play the 1% that want to be there. Usually my characters retire when they care strongly enough about something that they would run for free (my TM is retiring to become a full time TM’s rights terrorist for example).

As far as banned stuff: Emotional Software, Emotoy, Iron Will, Resonance Realms, Metaplanes, probably a few other things.

If I was being more extreme in my house rules, and not just banning things then adepts need a complete rework to work based on their magic score to make non-cyber, non-mystic adepts better

Example:
Improved Skill +(Magic devoted to power points/2, round up) to a skill. This cannot exceed skill rating x1.5, .5 power point.

The matrix rules need to be simplified and replaced,

Mages need a modification, although I would have to think more about how to do this.

EDIT: Usually I'm buying ware above avail 12, such as rating 3 cerebral boosters, cyberweapons, and some cyber limbs.

Unless I'm missing something, that would be ware that's beta or better or ware with an availability > 20.

I'll be honest. I'm not that nice of a guy. Such an opportunity would be (in other genre's terms) more like going on a quest. Getting possession of the ware and a place that can insert it is likely to require taking everyone else down the rabbit hole with you. But that's me. I'm not that nice.

Does it happen frequently in your campaign?

The only quality banned at our table is Astral Hazing. Everything else goes, although we have a Gentleman's agreement not to take incompetences in skills that you can't actually use.

Oh, and there was the one incident where a PC took Big Regret, and said something along the line of Ex-member of the Russian mob. The DM then decided that the character in question was responsible for breaking in new "recruits" in a russian child porn racket.

The third one, the character "already out of essence" is actually likely to buy new ware to upgrade what he has already. Does he have a standard cybertorso? Well, he could get a custom chassis built with a higher inherent body rating, maybe troll-grade, so that he can later purchase similarly better cyberlimbs and perform above and beyond. Maybe he still has some capacity, or can afford a little more essence for a limb with more capacity so he can install a nano-hive, and thus can afford nanites to increase performance.

There are numerous little upgrades you can make to ware after chargen, including upgrading to deltaware (unless you're type-O) and using the spare essence holes for other wares.

I will say, I never found Sensitive System on Adepts very cheesy-especially since the most optimal adepts DO take 1-2 points of 'ware that I've seen built. On a Mage or Technomancer, maaaybe, though a mage with some ware can be rather frighteningly effective(I know this from experience-we had one in our games, and I've played one.)

But I'm in the boat of yes-there are things I've not liked in my games(before it was actually ruled, I ruled that you could not get more than +3 DV from MA Qualities-I mean, I love martial arts characters but even I found people stacking +7-8 DV appallingly cheesy), but indeed, I don't name-call, or accuse of munchkining. (My PoV of a Munchkin is different than others it seems-I always thought Munchkins were people out to blatantly cheat and hurt the game for their own amusement-not someone who wanted a few extra BP.)

That, and our table is very fast and loose. In fact, we sort of have a little fun 'rule'-if you're trying to get extra BP and you take one of the 'lighter' flaws-don't try to lie about it. We'll know. Just be honest ''yeah, I took Sinner-I needed the points-just so you know' ''Alrighty, I'll figure a way to fit this in.'' Other tables are stricter and want a super-strict explanation of every single NQ a character has, and if it doesn't pass a highly strict test, it's out. Hey, that's fine too-not the type of game I like to play in but if someone else's table has fun that way, no problem.

I CAN understand some of the issues with some of the qualities. Like Sensitive System's seemingly no middle ground; you're a douche if you force cyber on a character, or you let them have free points. Though I look at things some other ways.

If a non-magical, non Techno non Cyber character takes this, they are *already* at a huge disadvantage in this game. The points aren't going to do much to offset this. IMO they deserve it.(and yes, I know this may not be a very popular outlook.)

If a magical or techno takes it, while I can't speak for technos, as I said above, these characters can still benefit very highly from 1-2 points of 'ware, and thus, IMO, it's an impact. It prevents full optimization of an adept, I know that much(unless I missed something in one of the later sourcebooks which now transforms fully natural Adepts into better ones.)

Oh, as for Availability at Chargen? Ditched in full at my table, with a ''Take what you want, don't be a numpty'' rule. If you want something that fits your character and can afford it, take it. If you want something that might not fit, try to come up with a good story for it and we'll take it from there.

I'm a HUGE believer in the phrase ''Don't tell someone no. Tell them it might be rough, tell them they might need to work at it, tell them it might need some compromise, but give them a chance'' at my table, so I'd have to say very, very little actually gets nailed. (If I DO nail something, it's for a very, very good reason.)

Unless I"m missing the math, the sensitive system dude with ware can do that as well. I'm not seeing the difference. Help me understand why having ware with a sensitive system is more of a disadvantage than not having ware with a sensitive system. I'm admittedly slow and may need an example or two.

Would you also call it cheesy if a character who doesn't want to kill people takes Pacifist?

If a player choses to restrict his character (and foregoing cyber sure is a restriction), I don't see why he should be penalized because this restriction fits with how the character will be played.

Suprathyroid gland as the first thing. Ultrasound hearing, echolocation and speech modification to reach ultrasound (forget its name), also I saved a lot of money to buy me a thunderstruck gauss rifle that I dubbed 'Trollslayer' and several highly illegal gas grenades.

A friend of mine also bought suprathyroid gland post character creation, dermal plate rating 3, muscle toner 4, etc. etc.

Now, why didn't we start with restricted gear?
Because we had other stuff we wanted to buy with our 35 points in Positive qualities.

Over the course of the campaign, I have advanced all the Cyberware I started with (At Alpha) through Beta and to Delta Grade. I only have a single Piece of Cyberware at Standard Grade, and that was because I had only recently bought it, and only had the resources for Standard Grade. It will be upgraded eventually through to Delta. My Bioware is about 90% Alpha Grade, with a Few pieces at Standard, and a Few at Delta. All my Bioware started at Standard Grade.

Of course, the Character is a cyberlogician, so much of his cyberware is Communications, Sensor, and Headware based, with a few pieces of body ware (primarily centered around a MBW II system, or Sensors that are not Headware). He has 4 Delta Grade Datajacks, a heavily encrypted Datalock, and 4 SOTA Internal Comlinks as his primary headware. Most of that came after character generation (Started with 2 Datajacks and the Datalock, and 1 Internal Comlink).

Yes, I know, a lot of redundancy in there, but that was intentional.

Sensitive System doubles the essence cost of any cyberware. Bioware is still available at normal essence cost. It basically makes cyberware a non-optimized choice for character improvement.

Edit: you can think of it as the opposite of "Type O System" from Augmentation. Type O means all standard ware is treated as deltaware for you. Sensitive System means that all cyberware is rejected to some degree by your system.

The difference is that Pacifist prevents you from going on some runs. In a home campaign that's not a problem (the GM can either ask you to sit out, or not throw those runs), in SRM, it means you have the 5 point disad to not play in some missions.

To muddy the waters, bioware is already superior to cyber in most ways. While forgoing *all* 'ware would be a moderate problem for Awakened, skipping just cyber is much less so.

I'm not a fan of Restricted Gear. I want there to be plenty of things you can still yearn for that aren't available from the beginning.







Hmm, makes me wonder about Pacifism yeah. But I think if you play a character who wasn't going to take cyber anyway, then sensitive system wouldn't be a real disadvantage, and a bit dubious to get points for it.

Which is why you give reduced points. It's a whopping 15, so plenty of room to charge 5 or 10.

Personally, I don't think 'limiting' yourself to bioware is worth 15 under any circumstances, but it's worth *something*, sure.

I'm amused by the thought that sensitive system may be considered cheesy in the same campaign where deltaware is obtainable.

I'm so glad I get to play. People would hate me as a GM.

If you are referring to me, Suoq, I do not consider Sensitive System to be Cheesy. *shrug*
Of course, It is not one of the normal Negative Qualities that I take either...

Why wouldn't deltaware be obtainable? I'm mean, sure, it may take some while but saying it is downright impossible seems a little exxagerating, doesn't it?

Deltaware makes a lot of sense if you start to think Corp. One of my last runs had some Executive Protection that looked a lot like a sweet little Personal Assistant, but had 2.3 million nuyen in low-profile cyberware taking her down to 0.3 essence. If you think about the mindset of CEOs and other rich bastards, a bodyguard to secure corp assets (i.e., themselves) is worth the investment. What Deltaware does for the game system is make a whole other tier of gear that PCs should not have access to, but the opposition will. Eventually, do some favors, get in good with a corp, and you might get some...but they will *start* with it.

1) It's the justposition of s.s. being cheesy and deltaware being obtainable that appeals to me.

2) From a personql standpoint, understanding that I don't claim to have the right way, last I heard there were something like 6 delta clinics in the world. That makes them more exclusive than the best clubs, the best secret societies. A runner would not only need the money, he'd need the sponsors, the people whose word opens the socially closed door.

Yes, even in the game of chess, a pawn, if he advances far enough can become a queen. But the pawn has to get there and the king has to give permission, and even then it may all be a sacrifice just to force an opponent out of position.

Indeed... It took 2 years of actual gameplay, 300+ Karma, and a signifcant bit of Money and Favors to obtain the Delta Grade 'Ware the character now has. But it was fun getting there...

There are at least a Dozen Delta Grade Clinics that can perform Cybermancy.
There are likely a few more that cannot.

Still, incredibly rare. It *should* take RL years (if you have a group that does long games).

And you'll still want at least 3 people you KNOW you can trust to watch out for you while the surgery takes place.

Found the quote:



Now, the availability of a delta clinic is 24/1 week. Which means that a guy with a 12+ dicepool of Charisma + Negotiation can find one eventually.

So thats 6-7 delta clinics in North America alone, couple of witch are indy operations.
So not that rare really.

I guess if your definition of 'not rare' means 'maybe a dozen or so on the planet'. There are about 12000 Starbuckses and McDonaldses (each) in the US, 600-some Five Guyses, 35 IKEAs… And they let people in off the street. Compared to a couple non-closed delta clinics in North America.

Note that every single Delta clinic is either buried so far under secrecy that you'll never find it, or being watched intently 24/7 by every megacorp on the planet.

Not exactly something your average street or even mid-range Shadowrunner is going to get access to. Or want to.

To put things into perspective, there are probably 10 times (or more) ultra top-secret corporate military facilities of varying sorts than there are Delta Clinics. And those are probably easier to get into.




-k

So your saying that the rest of the planet combined has barely as many delta clinics as North America