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Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 7 2011, 05:23 PM) *
So your saying that the rest of the planet combined has barely as many delta clinics as North America wobble.gif


Given how Japan is the motherland of 3 triple A corps, I would Japan would have as much as the entire North America.
Ryu
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jul 7 2011, 05:39 AM) *
I already replied in the other thread, but I think sensitive system is basically a character growth limiter. Any character growth limiter is inherently cheesy, because they are nearly always taken for areas the player doesn't plan to develop more than minimally, in the first place. You won't see a budding face take uncouth. You won't see the street samurai take sensitive system. You won't see the hacker take sim vertigo. You will see the troll muscle take uncouth, the bioware-enhanced adept take sensitive system, and the neo-Luddite mage take sim vertigo.

Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with having a problem with it, either. I'm only saying, don't be a dick about it. Like me with the ever-popular emotitoy ban. If I got a player with a fuzzy cat toy emotitoy, I would just say, "Sorry, but emotitoys are banned in my games." That's all. There's no call for whining, name-calling, or finger-pointing over it.

Interesting perspective. Mechanically I agree, yet in this case I have never seen the cheese.

It might be because I hold a special place in my hearth for augmented mages, but I don´t see that quality as a good buy except for those exotics that can´t realistically expect to get cyber. And what munchkin takes a mechanical disadvantage over an RP one that can be turned into an advantage or be ignored?
Yerameyahu
I am saying that, yes. I did say 'a dozen or so', intending something between 12 and 20. The point is that it's a very small number, and the vast majority are closed, corp.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 7 2011, 12:43 PM) *
Still, incredibly rare. It *should* take RL years (if you have a group that does long games).


Agreed, it Should take some time... I am glad that our games last years upon years. smile.gif
Rubic
Thank Dog for Type O System...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Rubic @ Jul 7 2011, 02:52 PM) *
Thank Dog for Type O System...

Heh... Type O (for Bioware) and Biocompatibility for Cyberware... the only way to fly, to bad you can't actually pull that one off except through Surge. smile.gif
Faraday
Makes me think about making a mundane character with BOTH type O system and sensitive system.

Granted, playing Type O PCs is always interesting, seeing as one is a big sack of juicy organs.
toturi
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jul 7 2011, 11:39 AM) *
If I got a player with a fuzzy cat toy emotitoy, I would just say, "Sorry, but emotitoys are banned in my games." That's all. There's no call for whining, name-calling, or finger-pointing over it.

I would have an issue only if the player wasn't informed of emotitoys being banned in the game before the PC joined the game.
Yerameyahu
How could the PC join the game before being approved? smile.gif
Glyph
Well, ideally, I would state my house rules before people created their characters. But sometimes you will have someone who has a character they have already put together, or something.

Sometimes it is relatively simple to revise a character, while other times, you have to go back to the drawing board. Take astral hazing. If I make a formori ex-pit fighter with SURGE mainly to optimize his Agility, and balance it out with astral hazing, then I could swap it out with a moderate/uncommon allergy easily if that quality was banned. On the other hand, I have a character named Null that is basically built around being supernaturally creepy (nasty vibe, critter spook, astral hazing) and being highly resistant to magic (magic resistance as a SURGE quality, astral hazing). If astral hazing was banned, I would probably do a completely different character, since that quality is fairly central to the concept. So yeah, I would try to lay down my house rules before people make their characters, whenever possible.
toturi
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 8 2011, 10:18 AM) *
How could the PC join the game before being approved? smile.gif

How can a player join a game to create his character if his character needs to be approved before he can join a game?
Yerameyahu
Huh? The *PC* (which is what you said) can't join the game until it (the character) is approved.
suoq
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jul 7 2011, 09:31 PM) *
Well, ideally, I would state my house rules before people created their characters.

Is there a "House Rules" thread? One where people who have all these house rules that the players expect to be informed of can post their house rules for other people to crib off of?
toturi
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 8 2011, 11:15 AM) *
Huh? The *PC* (which is what you said) can't join the game until it (the character) is approved.

But can the player join the game(OOCly) before his PC joins the game(ICly)?

Sometimes GMs do not go over the character's stats and equipment with a fine tooth comb before approving it and if the player doesn't know there are house rules, there will be the situation that an approved character has banned items.
Ascalaphus
What's worked very well for me is actually writing down house rules in a document, and emailing them to all the players whenever I update them.
Irion
There won't be a lot to go around in any case. Should not take more than one page, so I can't see the problem.

If it is nobody is wanting to play anyway, because nobody wants to learn a new set of rules for a game.

You only need:
Book allowed to build the character.
Surge yes/no.
Advanced character concepts (which?)
Banned items.
May be some mechanical changes each will probably be around 20 words.

@toturi
QUOTE
Sometimes GMs do not go over the character's stats and equipment with a fine tooth comb before approving it and if the player doesn't know there are house rules, there will be the situation that an approved character has banned items.

Thats why the GM is allowed to ban stuff in game, to correct misstakes.
toturi
QUOTE (Irion @ Jul 8 2011, 06:14 PM) *
@toturi

Thats why the GM is allowed to ban stuff in game, to correct misstakes.

The GM is allowed to house rule however he wants.
Ascalaphus
I view (house)rules as a work in progress. If an element in the game isn't working out well, such as a power or equipment that's too powerful ("everyone must have it"), or that just has clunky rules that work awkwardly then it gets changed. The house rule sheet gets updated and sent to everyone.

Changing entire mechanics is a lot trickier. I've done it with D&D and oWoD, and it takes a lot of playtesting and tweaking before a reform of something like the combat mechanics becomes balanced and efficient. But when you simplify 20 pages of clunky rules into 8 pages of streamlined and more elegant rules, that's really nice.
suoq
QUOTE (Irion @ Jul 8 2011, 05:14 AM) *
There won't be a lot to go around in any case. Should not take more than one page, so I can't see the problem.

Missions house rules are 8 pages or so.

My notes so far contain a paragraph each for contacts, commlinks, software, dice pools, equipment, rule books, and licenses/SINs. I haven't even gotten into details like emotitoys, glamor, etc. I really despise what they're becoming of necessity, either because of personal tweaks (contacts in no way reflects the skill of the contact), ill-defined rules (commlink response degradation and it's complete lack of effect), rules that throw the whole rest of the system out of balance and/or cause unnecessary paperwork and solo time with a single player (piracy), equipment that bypasses availability restrictions (HK=227X and Morrissey Élan), rule books that I currently have no intention of buying that my players may own, etc. etc.

I suspect if people wrote down which optional rules they used (dice caps), which rules they universally ignored (training of skills), etc., they would find it much more than a single page worth of house rules.
Elfenlied
Well, I used to have a DM who seriously considered white-listing every piece of equipment allowed in his campaign. Note that this was in one of the older editions, where every gun still had its own page and artwork.

The threat of administering physical violence to him made him see the light. There's a fine line between "house rules to enhance the gaming experience of everyone involved" and "control freak", and white-listing equipment is clearly the latter for me.
Irion
QUOTE
The threat of administering physical violence to him made him see the light. There's a fine line between "house rules to enhance the gaming experience of everyone involved" and "control freak", and white-listing equipment is clearly the latter for me.

It is just over complicated.

To a certain amount every group has its own "white" list. Consisting of the books and rules they do apply.
Looks like that(for example):
Core book/all
Augmentation/all
Streetmagic/all
Runners Companion/only lifestyle and normal additional Flaws and merits.
etc.
It is a base line you have to establish anyway. The more there are "bad" parts introduced in good books, the more you have to make it more precise.
(So if you want some rules from war! it really might be easyer to write a white list than a black one...)
Hida Tsuzua
There's also stuff that isn't rules per se but are widely different group to group. Stuff like how hard is it to cover one's identity, the average matrix security layout, how fast and how easy is it to avoid cops, and what is and is not socially accepted (does SWAT get called for a SMG?). Thankfully players usually adopt fast so you don't need the huge document that it would take to write all these little things out.
Yerameyahu
QUOTE
But can the player join the game(OOCly) before his PC joins the game(ICly)?
Yes. Obviously. smile.gif If the GM approves something without reading it, bad GM.
ElFenrir
QUOTE
equipment that bypasses availability restrictions (HK=227X and Morrissey Élan),


Can I ask how these two guns bypass the Availability limit?

The HK227X has: 28c, SA/BF/FA, Smartlink, Sound Supressor and retractable stock(1 RC). It's 5P, no AP.

The Ingram Smartgun has 32c, BF/FA, Smartlink, Sound Supressor, Gast Vent 2 and a Folding Stock(max 3RC). It's 5P, no AP, and 150 nuyen less than the HK. It's also 6R instead of 8R.

Unless I'm reading something wrong, I cannot see in any way how an HK227X bypasses Availability restrictions, unless having an SA function on your SMG is incredibly powerful, which in my experience, doesn't really break anything.

The Élan is equivalent nearly to the Scout hold-out-same damage, both SA, the Scout has 2 more bullet capacity. The Elan cannot fire fletchette rounds; it's big thing is the fact it's undetectable by MADs(like the fully legal Bone Density Augmentation and other legal bioware.) Now, I can understand why it's heavy-pistol counterpart the Infiltrator is tougher to get(it's basically a non-MAD detectable Ares Predator 4, complete with 15c and -1AP with heavy pistol ranges, AND the ability to break it down, where the Élan lacks this, and HPs are *considerably* more powerful than a little holdout.)

I'm not being snarky, by the way-I'm genuinely curious. I figure that the Availability limits are put on weapons for a reason. I mean, an Ingram White Knight LMG is only Availability 12, while the Remington 990 shotgun(and a rather excellent gun) is a mere 4.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Jul 8 2011, 08:44 AM) *
Can I ask how these two guns bypass the Availability limit?

The HK227X has: 28c, SA/BF/FA, Smartlink, Sound Supressor and retractable stock(1 RC). It's 5P, no AP.

The Ingram Smartgun has 32c, BF/FA, Smartlink, Sound Supressor, Gast Vent 2 and a Folding Stock(max 3RC). It's 5P, no AP, and 150 nuyen less than the HK. It's also 6R instead of 8R.

Unless I'm reading something wrong, I cannot see in any way how an HK227X bypasses Availability restrictions, unless having an SA function on your SMG is incredibly powerful, which in my experience, doesn't really break anything.

The Élan is equivalent nearly to the Scout hold-out-same damage, both SA, the Scout has 2 more bullet capacity. The Elan cannot fire fletchette rounds; it's big thing is the fact it's undetectable by MADs(like the fully legal Bone Density Augmentation and other legal bioware.) Now, I can understand why it's heavy-pistol counterpart the Infiltrator is tougher to get(it's basically a non-MAD detectable Ares Predator 4, complete with 15c and -1AP with heavy pistol ranges, AND the ability to break it down, where the Élan lacks this, and HPs are *considerably* more powerful than a little holdout.)

I'm not being snarky, by the way-I'm genuinely curious. I figure that the Availability limits are put on weapons for a reason. I mean, an Ingram White Knight LMG is only Availability 12, while the Remington 990 shotgun(and a rather excellent gun) is a mere 4.


The Ingran and the HK227 both have integral SOund Suppressors, which should change the availability to Forbidden, rather than Restricted.
The Elan is Ceramic Yes? That is also Forbidden Tech, except in the Elan's case, in which case it is Restricted.
Hida Tsuzua
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Jul 8 2011, 03:44 PM) *
Can I ask how these two guns bypass the Availability limit?


I assume suoq's talking about the fact they have restricted instead of illegal sound suppressors on the HK-227 and being "ceramic" but restricted on the Elan. However, I'm of the opinion that the legality rules of Shadowrun are messed up, and despite my general distaste on doing it, be given over to GM fiat. That way old women can get plastic lacing for their osteoporosis.

On a related note, I used to like the Smartgun more than the HK-227. Nowadays, I'm more iffy on the subject. Cheaper and 4 more rounds for a firing mode I'll never use? I'm fine with that trade. However since the Smartgun has Gas-Vent 2, you can't add Gas Vent 3 until you take out the old Gas Vent 2. I'm unsure if you can remove the gas vent mod (technically you can, but I could see GMs blocking it). If you can take it out, it isn't too bad, just have the armorer pool or a contact (in Missions it'll cost you 400Y). If you can't, the HK-227 wins since you can put a GV3 on it.
ElFenrir
Oh, I personally prefer(depending on character) to get more bare-bones weapons and then customizing them. I just like tinkering, I guess. On my sam, I even started him with a pretty high Armoring skill to show that part of things that he does. He helps the team's weapons out like this as well.

And I can see the thing with R vs. F. I was thinking more of the Availability number bypassing(in other words, you are allowed forbidden tech from a character by RAW-unless they changed something, but I do have most of the rulebooks and splats-it was the availability number that the book restricted.) That being said, again, I threw those out the window for chargen, and basically wing it in game(I use the number for the die rolls, sure, but I'll handwave something if I think they can get it or not.)

And yeah, I think some of the Availability bits are nonsensical as well(the perfectly, 100% LEGAL, easier on the system but more expensive Bone Density Augmentation vs. the Bone Lacing which is harder on the system, cheaper but otherwise does the same damn thing but it's forbidden? Eh? Does. Not. Compute.)
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Hida Tsuzua @ Jul 8 2011, 10:29 AM) *
I assume suoq's talking about the fact they have restricted instead of illegal sound suppressors on the HK-227 and being "ceramic" but restricted on the Elan. However, I'm of the opinion that the legality rules of Shadowrun are messed up, and despite my general distaste on doing it, be given over to GM fiat. That way old women can get plastic lacing for their osteoporosis.

On a related note, I used to like the Smartgun more than the HK-227. Nowadays, I'm more iffy on the subject. Cheaper and 4 more rounds for a firing mode I'll never use? I'm fine with that trade. However since the Smartgun has Gas-Vent 2, you can't add Gas Vent 3 until you take out the old Gas Vent 2. I'm unsure if you can remove the gas vent mod (technically you can, but I could see GMs blocking it). If you can take it out, it isn't too bad, just have the armorer pool or a contact (in Missions it'll cost you 400Y). If you can't, the HK-227 wins since you can put a GV3 on it.


I don't know... the Ingram Smartgun is a package of Awesome, right out of the box, and for less cost. Easy to get, and easily disposable. After all, it is the Street Samurai's best friend. smile.gif
suoq
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 8 2011, 11:12 AM) *
The Ingran and the HK227 both have integral SOund Suppressors, which should change the availability to Forbidden, rather than Restricted.
The Elan is Ceramic Yes? That is also Forbidden Tech, except in the Elan's case, in which case it is Restricted.

This
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 8 2011, 12:00 PM) *
I don't know... the Ingram Smartgun is a package of Awesome, right out of the box, and for less cost. Easy to get, and easily disposable. After all, it is the Street Samurai's best friend. smile.gif

Unmodifed, purchased during a run, I like the Ingram. Starting character for Missions where I can mod the heck out of it, I like the HK227. Put me behind the screen and make it non-Missions and there's a big F on both of them. That doesn't mean you can't buy them, own them, carry them, or face them in combat. Just don't get caught with the dang things.
ElFenrir
I do admit, I do chuckle a bit in general at Shadowrun vs. RL, where RL, to my knowledge(I guess depending where you live), being caught with an SMG in general, supressed or not, is a big no no. grinbig.gif

Shadowrun? As long as it's loud, you can get a permit(well, for the R rated stuff. Not F.) Hell, there's some pretty scary stuff that's available with a permit.

I STILL, to this way, want to know the logic behind making Bone Lacing forbidden. Is it the inate armor? Thinking about it that's the only difference(if I'm not mistaken, Rating 4 bone density gives 1 extra die to regular damage resistance above Titanium Bone Lacing, even.) Really the Inate armor is the only thing I can think of. I mean, I guess if I squint I'd be willing to say the inate armor rating might be enough to slap an R on it, but F? I can't see it. Now that it's pointed out I can see a Forbidden for silencers and sound suppressors and understand that, but this one really just goes over my head.
suoq
QUOTE (ElFenrir @ Jul 8 2011, 12:13 PM) *
I do admit, I do chuckle a bit in general at Shadowrun vs. RL, where RL, to my knowledge(I guess depending where you live), being caught with an SMG in general, supressed or not, is a big no no. grinbig.gif

I like to think of it as "Shadowrun is to the U.S. as the U.S. is to India".

It's just a different culture. My son, in his second year of summer camp with the boy scouts has shot a rifle (next year, shotgun) and completed his Firearm Hunter Education. My former co-workers from India, when told there's a shooting range in town where they can rent guns, were confused at the concept.
Ascalaphus
I don't get the BDA/BL difference in legality either. It's been explained as "legislation not catching up with Bioware yet", but that sounds rather thin.

I read somewhere there was supposed to be a device to detect bioware, either in Augmentation or Arsenal, but because publication dates of those two were switched it fell through the cracks, or something like that.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Jul 8 2011, 11:40 AM) *
I don't get the BDA/BL difference in legality either. It's been explained as "legislation not catching up with Bioware yet", but that sounds rather thin.

I read somewhere there was supposed to be a device to detect bioware, either in Augmentation or Arsenal, but because publication dates of those two were switched it fell through the cracks, or something like that.


Well, there is a device to detect Bioware. Unfortunately, it requires a Full Body, intensive scan, which takes time, and requires a fairly well stocked medical facility (and has a Threshold of 20, if I remember correctly). There is no handheld device to do that. smile.gif
redwulf25
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 8 2011, 02:22 PM) *
Well, there is a device to detect Bioware. Unfortunately, it requires a Full Body, intensive scan, which takes time, and requires a fairly well stocked medical facility (and has a Threshold of 20, if I remember correctly). There is no handheld device to do that. smile.gif


There's a hand held device to check for bioware. Admittedly it takes a lot of time, you have to strap the person be "scanned" to the table, and they probably won't survive. It's called a knife.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (redwulf25 @ Jul 8 2011, 03:37 PM) *
There's a hand held device to check for bioware. Admittedly it takes a lot of time, you have to strap the person be "scanned" to the table, and they probably won't survive. It's called a knife.


But you may still never see the Bioware that the victim may, or may not, have... Since they look like normal organs, for the most part, in a lot of cases. wobble.gif
ElFenrir
This might actually be good for another thread-or hell, this one it might not be that offtopic on.

But looking over the list, there are indeed items that make sense that are restricted with a permit-basic guns and knives, for example. Very believable. And in a world like Shadowrun, it makes sense maybe some of the bigger stuff you can't get so easy IRL has an R on it instead of an F.

F seems to mostly be the realm of A. Military or high end law enforcement gear(and this is understandable), or B. Stuff that's *obviously* used for shady things(Voice secondary patterns).

That being said...I think it's the cyber that's harder for me to grasp why the ratings and the Legal/R/F tags are on them. There isn't really full RL counterparts(well, okay, there are some pretty awesome robotic hands out these days I've seen in videos.)There isn't a *whole* lot of forbidden ware. Some guns(which, IMO, match up with the ordinary guns anyway.) Besides that, the forbidden Cyber/Bio I've found(just using SR4A here for now):

Cortex Bombs(yeah, these need no explanation)
Voice Mod(Secondary Pattern is F, without this it's perfectly legal, and understandable why the secondary pattern is illegal)
Bone Lacing(The biggest question mark of them all)
Cyberarm Gyromount(I suppose they assume if you have one of these you have something that *needs* one of these, so yeah, understandable)
Blades. Here is another question mark-maybe. The only forbidden melee weapon in SR4A is the Monowhip(which I can see why for sure.) All other blades and swords and other stabby things you can get a permit for. I imagine this includes the ability to hide them on your person. The minute you INSTALL a blade, it's forbidden.

Besides the Grenade Launcher in a cyberarm(understandable), that's all the forbidden ware in SR4A, and I admit, the only ones I really agree with are the Cortex bombs, Voice mod copying, and the gyromount. IMO? If you get a damned combat axe, unless you're some kinda futuristic lumberjack, you're using that for a weapon. You can have a permit for this, but not a set of hand razors?

Next up, is the Bioware. I question a couple of these limitations as well.

Adrenaline Pump(I guess i can see why this is forbidden, someone sending this into overload might be a bit...jumpy? Not 100% sold though)
Suprathyroid(What? Why is this forbidden? All it does is make you a little stronger, faster and tougher while requiring you to eat twice as much. For around the same price-and not much essence difference, someone can get 1 level each of muscle aug/toner-low Avail, just need a permit-a reaction enhancer for the same, and a level of legal bone density and basically get the same result as this for some reason illegal thing. Oh, they wouldn't need to eat twice as much.)
Pheremones(I'm...a little weird on these. I think, given their social manipulation thing, I can understand why they'd want these to be illegal.)
Damage Compensators and the Pain Editor: I CAN understand why they might want to make these illegal. On one hand, you can see them used for something cool(a pro stunt guy might be pretty awesome with these), on the other, it could be bad in the wrong hands. I guess I sometimes think about things like-if you can get a permit for an assault rifle-which is likely not used to hunt rabbits, unless their Giant Australian Mutant Rabbits-that can be used for good or ill as well. I'm a little torn. Definite restriction at least, I'm not saying 'make em legal.'

(For the record, I have very little problems with R ratings; I can certainly see why most of this stuff should need a permit at least.) I'd even consider in my games turning most of these to R unless I can really see a reason why they should stay fully illegal. (Not all of course-I'd definitely leave the cortex bombs, secondary pattern, milspec cyberweapons and pheremones as an F-with an 'undecided' on a couple other things.)
Shinobi Killfist
Going back to sensitive system for a bit, I never had a problem with it. It is a hit to your effectiveness no matter what you are playing, mages almost need eyes at the least so even they are hit by it. Also it does something I like, it reinforces the thematic concept of mages and ware not mixing. Heck I almost think it should be given to all awakened and have in include bioware as part of buying the awakened perks. Honestly I'm not that worried about the "balance or fairness" of those 35 points. I think they are mostly there to add flavor, not to gimp the players in some gotcha trap.
Yerameyahu
If we're talking about nailing magicrun, yes: make them all Sensitive/bioware innately. smile.gif
pbangarth
I've never ascribed to the 'magicrun' view that Shadowrun has gone too far in empowering Magic. Nevertheless, I would have no trouble with a future edition making Magic incompatible with any and all implants.
Sengir
If you want to get truly weird things with availability, try building a guy with a lot of counter-biometric implants.
A cyber Voice Modulator with Secondary Pattern has avail. R*3 F and costs R*5000 nuyen.gif, or you can get the nanoware Voice Mimic for a flat 16F at R*3000 nuyen.gif. Fingerprints can be removed with a minor cosmetic modification (see p. 61 Augmentation), avail. 4 and 100-2000 nuyen.gif, or with Print Removal genetech, avail. 8F and 25,000¥. Retinal Duplication (cyber) and Retinal Adjusters (nano) both have an availability of 16F, however the cutting-edge nanoware costs 5000 nuyen.gif per Rating and the cheap old cyber goes for three times the price (admittedly these two are not completely identical, Retinal Duplication is compatible with other eyeware).

And without looking into Spy Games, I bet that the availability and cost of the new "face morphing" cyberware is totally inconsistent with the False Front from Agumentation biggrin.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 10 2011, 07:54 AM) *
If you want to get truly weird things with availability, try building a guy with a lot of counter-biometric implants.
A cyber Voice Modulator with Secondary Pattern has avail. R*3 F and costs R*5000 nuyen.gif, or you can get the nanoware Voice Mimic for a flat 16F at R*3000 nuyen.gif. Fingerprints can be removed with a minor cosmetic modification (see p. 61 Augmentation), avail. 4 and 100-2000 nuyen.gif, or with Print Removal genetech, avail. 8F and 25,000¥. Retinal Duplication (cyber) and Retinal Adjusters (nano) both have an availability of 16F, however the cutting-edge nanoware costs 5000 nuyen.gif per Rating and the cheap old cyber goes for three times the price (admittedly these two are not completely identical, Retinal Duplication is compatible with other eyeware).

And without looking into Spy Games, I bet that the availability and cost of the new "face morphing" cyberware is totally inconsistent with the False Front from Agumentation biggrin.gif


So you have different approaches to doing the same thing... And what, exactly is the problem with that? Yes, some are suboptimal, but again I say so what. That is how many things in real life are developed. Eventually, the suboptimal ones will fall away, or become niche for some reason that is not obvious, while the other will take off and dominate the market until something better comes along.

Any one remember Betamax?
Or how about Audio Tapes?

You can still get both if you look hard enough...
suoq
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 10 2011, 10:15 AM) *
Any one remember Betamax?
Or how about Audio Tapes?

For Christmas I got a collection of Tom Waits on heavyweight vinyl. Then again, I don't consider that "suboptimal", the sound is incredible.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (suoq @ Jul 10 2011, 09:59 AM) *
For Christmas I got a collection of Tom Waits on heavyweight vinyl. Then again, I don't consider that "suboptimal", the sound is incredible.


I hear that a lot. smile.gif
My parents still have a lot of Vinyl, and they do sound incredible.
Yerameyahu
Though digital can always sound better. You can even imitate the vinyl imperfections that people seem to like so much.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 10 2011, 10:50 AM) *
Though digital can always sound better. You can even imitate the vinyl imperfections that people seem to like so much.


This is true... And digital is how it is now done. But you still have die hards who stick to the old stuff. Which is why having 5 different ways to do something with various types of ware is a good thing in my opinion. Even if some of those methods are not optimal. smile.gif
suoq
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 10 2011, 10:50 AM) *
Though digital can always sound better. You can even imitate the vinyl imperfections that people seem to like so much.
No digital lady will ever replace the feel of my wife's skin. No CD will ever replace vinyl to my ears. I love the analog life.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 9 2011, 12:49 AM) *
If we're talking about nailing magicrun, yes: make them all Sensitive/bioware innately. smile.gif



For me it is not so much the nailing of magicrun, but I just liked the thematic element from the 1e era that magic and ware don't mix. I liked that mages were at a penalty when on the matrix, I liked that ware of any amount was seen as a big hamper to your magic even if after various supplements mechanically it wasn't as bad. While there are a lot of things I prefer as the system evolved, the thematic elements of 1e era shadowrun to me have never been beat.
Yerameyahu
I agree, just being a little slangy. smile.gif Obviously, Essence Loss/Magic Loss is already part of it, but clearly many people work around that to be very powerful.
Sengir
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 10 2011, 04:15 PM) *
So you have different approaches to doing the same thing... And what, exactly is the problem with that?

The problem is that the new high tech nanomagic is cheaper and easier to get than cyber which has been around for 20 years. And from a design standpoint, two items in the same book, one of which is made obsolete by the other, is not the most elegant work
LurkerOutThere
QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 10 2011, 08:54 AM) *
And without looking into Spy Games, I bet that the availability and cost of the new "face morphing" cyberware is totally inconsistent with the False Front from Agumentation biggrin.gif



Well lets be honest they've all had that problem, Augmentation has Encephelon I which costs oodles of essence for what it does and a substantial amount of money. For the same cost and a fraction of the essence you can get Pushed which does the job better. I doubt i'm the first to discover this but it did annoy me last night while I stumbled over it.
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