That's what I call it... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sorry, I had children so I ended up skipping from SR1 to SR4.5

Understandable, I have Child Now...

The thing is it really depends on how you define a stat. Sure if you define strength only as the lift crap stat it wont cover things. But strength can also be defined by muscle control to some degree. What you consider agility to control the blade I consider to be strength. (BROAD GENERALIZATION INCOMING)It doesn't matter how agile you are but if you don't know how to put your mass into a punch it wont do anything and that could be defined by strength. Some games broaden individual stats down so you only need a couple stats, some define each stat narrowly. It really is up to the designer to decide what strength, agility etc actually mean and cover for the game. Ideally given 4es system each stat would do something on its own separate from skills and cover roughly the same number of skills if you intend for each stat to cost the same.

No. Ideally, you want each attribute to influence a total package of things worth about the same.
Or would you say Body is the worst attribute? It covers just two skills, most likely the two most worthless ones you'll find next to Pilot Aerospace! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Nope, would not say that at all... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
And I have actually used those skills, more than many of the skills based upon other attributes. Parachuting and Diving are damn useful.

It isn't the worst attribute but it is far from the best and I think overall it is below average even if it is necessary to take to some degree. If you even out what stats do by giving each stat valuable roles in themselves and a similar number value of skills it is much easier to balance. Body is just the don't make it a dump stat, stat. It does nothing but soaks damage to some degree, if it weren't for the armor mechanic I might put it at the dump stat category since the difference between a 2 or a 5 is fairly minor in itself. While everything is always table dependent by putting all their eggs in the soak damage basket the valuation of body will vary more wildly than other attributes that effect a broader range of things.

Body need never worry about being the worst attribute as long as we still have Strength to kick around. The 10kg per point of Strength or face penalties can be troublesome if you truly dump it completely, but Muscle Augmentations are among the cheapest 'ware in the game and what few skills Strength is linked to can also be easily be compensated with 'ware.

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Honestly, Body is just one of those 'not for skills' stats, and I can't see how you could reasonably change that. It's useful elsewhere, and nothing really makes sense to use it. Let people have a 'dump stat', if they want it, and stop worrying.

In general when I design characters I tend to play to the metatype strengths (AGI and/or CHA for elves, orks and trolls for tanks, edge for humans), but am not above making an ork hacker so I can dumpstat BOD and/or STR. But at the end of the day, that +1 AGI for elves doesn't make them the default gunbunny (+1 to your DP, avg 1/3 hit, woo hoo!).

Saying that, a BOD 4 STR 3 ork is still looked down on (certainly by orks) as much as the BOD 1 STR 1 human would be ("Sheesh, that's the puniest wimpiest ork I ever saw!"), so playing the ork card for those free stat bonuses comes with a fluff disadvantage.

As an aside, perhaps as a hangover from my SR1 days, I still see stats of 1 as seriously weak. On my table I have a house rule to only allow characters one 1 and one 2 or three 2's as dumpstats with the rest being 3+, although I might allow two 1's if they made sense to the character in question (STR 1 BOD 1 plus paraplegic/infirm perhaps, although I will warn the player that such a character might be letting themselves in for a world of hurt).

I also limit increases to stats to 1.5x original (round up) with 2x original possible at 1.5x karma to try and encourage people not to min-max. Hence stat of 1 can only ever get to 2, 2 to 3 or 4 (at 1.5x karma for the 4th point), 3 to 5 or 6 (1.5x karma), 4+ to 6. This applies to the base stat before racial bonuses so not to give metas an (additional?) advantage over human.

For the record, most characters on my table have BOD at 3 or more, although BOD 2 with a high dodge pool does sometimes crop up. And, on the topic in question, I find human characters more than viable even if they are not edge monkeys (although most of them are).

Nine times out of ten I play a human, simply because it gives me MORE options.

1. Inconspicious
2. Blends in
3. More things to spend on other things

And lets not forget how we can tweak the human form with a little help of becoming

A: Adept
B: Mage
C: Changeling
D: Ghoul
E: A+C+D

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I'd hardly call becoming a ghoul a "tweak", more like "gross degeneration" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Frankly, the only real beef I have with humans is that they can de facto spend less BP on Attributes than other races. If you remedied that, then the other races would basically have a BP discount on some Attributes, at the price of being shoehorned a little bit in that direction; humans would be free-er, but slightly more expensive.

Since dumpstatting is a viable tactic in SR4.5, humans can have a bonus there. Dumpstatting strength is a common move, so if that's your plan, going ork isn't going o net you anything. Dumpstatting Body isn't wise; but you really don't need more than a Body of 3-4, and you can get away with a 2 if you're careful.

Weeelll now, that's a matter of taste.

Seriosly, you can quite easily create "clean" Ghouls as long as the teamplayer have no qualms about your eating habits - something they might not be even aware of if you keep it quiet.

1. Get the quality so that you are no longer contagious
2. hunt feral ghouls. Get a bounty AND keep your fridge filled (yes, they are metahumans so they are a legal foodsource)

situational.

You just need to roll stuff or be creative to be just as good as a human at blending in.
Humans are actually more expensive at any non-fragile build, as has been stated here to the point of frustration. Of course if you are min-maxing in BP builds then this might not save you anything, factually, because you want to put your first 20-30 karma into bod and/or Str. So you just have to survive two runs with Bod 1, and then the other 3 or so runs with Bod 2, and even then you still only have 10 boxes and can wear the most basic armour.

Meh. Orcs make cheaper mages and adepts just like they make cheaper sams. The only things they are worse at is being the face or hacker, but a combat hacker (yes, that lost old archetype) might again benefit.

Look at it this way: A bod 10 character is a tank. No doubt. The bod 5 character is just one who doesn't want to die so easily. Bod 5 is by no means especially resilient. It's what I consider the minimum for anyone who wants to get into a firefight.

Body 5 makes for fluffwise some of the toughest humans naturally possible.
If it's just extra damage boxes you're after, get some cyberlimbs. You get one each. A body 2 character with two cyberhands and two cyberfeet has the same ammount of damage boxes as a body 10 character. Plus likely have more dice to roll for shooting stuff as well, for far cheaper, given a lenient GM.

If we are here talking about dump stats.
Looking at meditation, it might be a really good idea to dump stat:
Strength (way to go I guess)
Charisma (not such a smart move and it does not help, if you already dumped strength to 1)
Reaction (Well, depends. With an Edge 6 human it is possible)
Intuition (Well, I would go with reaction, playing a mage)


So yes, thats one thing only a human can do.
An elve is kind of fucked with a charisma bonus, he quite can't use. (Needing 7 hits is not a nice thing)
The Orc is fucked with his starting strength, unable to dump charisma (Bound spirits)
The troll, ah well.
The dwarf could do it too.
I an other point is, if you have a very skill focused character (background). (Simply no points for Race or attributes)
Low physical attributes may be explained by someone of the nasty stuff in arsenal.
But well I guess such characters stoped beeing worth a thought after the new costs to raise attributes.

So with too dump attributes at 1 instead of 3 buys you one skill group at 4.
Comparing 40BP/50Karma (old 40BP/30Karma) to 40BP/55Karma.

It could be that I didn't express it well. I am not saying that an assailant hurts his hand by punchning someone. I'm saying that in a realistic melee without rules and referees, both people are landing punches on one another simultaneously. In a three second both guys (or girls) will probably throw a half-dozen blows, with many of them landing on their opponent. The actual damage done is a factor of both the strength of the blows and their precision, but both combatants and taking and dealing damage every round. If you throw a roundhouse kick at me I can mitigate the effects by moving out of the optimal target zone and interposing a less vulnerable body part like in a leg check, and even occasionally can move out of the way completely. But most of the blows end up hitting something. In real life the whole 'do the matrix' thing where you duck and dodge a dozen blows that touch nothing but air is a myth, unless you're talking about VAST differences in skill levels.

I would argue that there are plenty of combat styles that rely just as much on raw power as they do on speed and finess. Having ridiculously powerful blows makes it easier to land a significant punch. If we're fighting and you block my punch with your arm, you've avoided my punch. But if your fighting a guy with Strength 8 and you block his punch with your arm, you've got a broken arm...

So you, sort of, bring back the counterstrike abilities of Previous Editions?



Only if you do it wrong... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No. Just No.

Lets list what it does:

• Skills: a couple and I have never used them...
• Resists Physical Damage by soak
• Controls how many hps you have
• Allows you to wear more armour
• Resisting Physical Mage Spells
• Resists diseases
• Resists poisons
• Used by adepts in their soaking of drain
• Controls how fast you get get hitpoints back
• When you are down from loss of hitpoints, it controls how long you stay alive

I'm sure I have forgotten a few things...

Boxes are a neat side-effect, but what I'm really after is armour (in games that don't play with WAR! and softcheese armour).

If you are using WAR, then you can really get away with Bod 3/Str 2 or so, I guess.

Point is, however, that when you're facing someone capable of powerful blows a wider variety of techniques become "wrong," and in the chaos of a fight that can really limit your options. So, yeah, the notion of a fighter who is clumsy or whatever hits me as deeply weird. But, Shadowrun is quite abstract and already divides the old Quickness attribute stat ways that favors game mechanics rather than verisimilitude, so the notion that someone skilled can use their Strength as their primary attribute when swinging a claymore or punching their opponent doesn't bother me very much as far as houserules go, particularly if they have a high skill.

This post has been edited by Whipstitch: Jul 29 2011, 06:35 PM

Perhaps, but that uses much more granularity than Shadowrun truly cares about... It is not something that really needs to be worried about in the long run. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Which leads us pack to: And thats the reason strength is the dump attribute it is...