The ONLY helmet you can use with military armor is the helmet it's intended to be used with. See above quote.

In SR4A a shield does not count as a "separate piece of armor", but I see nowhere that says PPP does not count as a separate piece of armor. PPP clearly says that the rating is modified just LIKE with helmets and shields, but it's also clear that it's not the same thing. (It doesn't have the "Helmets and shields do not count as separate pieces of armor" clause).

Exclamation Point.

It doesn't need that clause, because it explicitly says it is treated like a helmet or shield!


Also, nowhere does it say that a non-military helmet can't be used with a military armor. It says it is intended to be used with the military helmet, but intended is not a descriptor that automatically disallows anything else. I'd consider somebody with access to military quality armor pretty stupid if they went for a securetech helmet or a security helmet instead, but I see no reason at all why it wouldn't be possible.

PPP Stacks it effects, however (See the whole +notation); it is not an Amor in and of itself, though you could wear it as such if you so chose. It adds to other armor. FFBA IS a Seperate Armor, and has no place underneath Military Armor at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

On a more common-sense level, I would allow any helmet to be used with military armor, because the head isn't covered by the suit. I might not allow the milspec armor's chemseal to work with non-milspec helmets, though, as I can see them not sealing together properly - different connectors.

I might as a houserule allow PPP to be used on the outside of the milspec armor, but I'd probably require the user to obtain troll-sized versions at the higher troll-adapted prices. Milspec armor is damn bulky. But I cannot see it as anything but "worn armor" and thus forbidden by the rules text.




-k

Only for purposes of encumbrance. It's right there on pg 49 of Arsenal.


Getting mad does not change the written rules. I don't care what rules you play by. I'm just quoting the written rules in order to help the OP make up their own mind as to what rules and house rules they wish to use.

By that logic, Helmets and Shields only don't count as separate armor for purposes of encumbrance, and shouldn't work either.


They literally work the same way. Trying to void one and not the other by twisting the wording is just being intentionally obtuse.

SR4A 327


Notice that the sentences are not the same. PPP has added "for purposes of encumbrance". Helmets and shields say no such thing.

One of these things is not like the other.

You mean like paying .5 power points for a +2 enhancement on one thing, or .5 for a +1 enhancement on 4 things? Seems a little lopsided, especially when the +2 enhanceent needs another 4 already invested to even work.

There are lots of things in SR that are not equivalent values. In this Body example alone, a human buying max body is paying 25 more points for number 6 at character generation, which gets him potential 18 mil-spec, and one dice on DR and disease tests, and 2 to healing. From 4 to 5, he gets those increases as well as another box of damage. That is not exactly the same value, and costs more then twice as much.

suoq, you forget the basic rules about armor and encumbrance. Regardless of whether an item is considered a separate piece of armor for the purpose of encumbrance every single item adds to encumbrance, unless specified otherwise:

Exactly: errors in balance and costs don't create logical implications on the game world like that. There are bows that *can't* make use of increased strength… sorry, no matter how much you paid for that strength. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm pretty sure that since I didn't write the rules I'm quoting, I didn't forget the basic rules. Now the person who wrote Arsenal may have forgotten them (assuming he ever read them in the first place), but that's not something I have any control over.

This is a big reason why karmagen is much better. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm still not following why you believe PPP and FFBA count as different types of things. Both can be worn under and add their armor values to existing armor. The only difference is that PPP is sold in pieces.

All that aside, if your table wants to rule you can strap pieces of PPP to the outside of your milspec armor or have your armor designed to be form fitting to the form of you wearing FFBA with PPP then more power to you...[**Removed by Poster**]

Debate, disagree, even argue if you must, but keep it to the topic. Personal attacks simply escalate to flame wars, no matter how innocuous that attack may initially seem.

Based on my interpretation of the rules, PPP should stack with MilSpec armor, but FFBA should not. However, FCA + FFBA + PPP is perfectly legal. However, any GM who allows a player to even wear MilSpec armor in the first place must make sure that the opponents are strong enough to present a challenge, and should make the character have to deal with transporting MilSpec armor, because it's forbidden. Hot Sim modified commlinks are one thing, but MilSpec armor? If there are game balance issues, such as soaking all the damage from getting shot at point-blank with a hold out (arguably, it's not my fault I soaked the damage - why was that ninja using a hold out instead of a heavy pistol?), then FFBA, PPP, and/or MilSpec armor should be adjudicated such that everyone enjoys the game.
As an aside, the game I'm in right now doesn't allow PPP to stack like shields or helmets. It can only stack with other parts of PPP, meaning that you can use it to get up to 2/6 armor. And FFBA no longer stacks with other armor, and counts its full rating when determining encumbrance, instead of half. And no softweave.

Very true - rule interpretation aside, Milspec armor isn't exactly something you can go tooling around Seattle in. Unless you're regularly performing military incursions on 3rd world countries there aren't too many situations you could use it in that wouldn't result in an immediate escalation in the armed response. Really, especially since it has to be custom fit, it shouldn't be something you can get simply with a black market contact and a few die rolls.

AFAIK I haven't seen a showrun depction of heavy milspec armor. We usually assume it's something like either of these:

Heavy Milspec Armor A La Appleseed
NSFW - Appleseed Landmate

We definitively don't allow PPP to be worn with any milspec because for us it breaks the suspension of disbelief. Who in their right mind is going to put arm/shin guards on one of these? And wearing them under the suit is likewise logistically unreasonable. We do allow Form Fit because it seems to be more cinematically reasonable. In the second picture she's wearing a full body suit already, no reason it can't be bullet proof-ish.

Seriously, that's what you envision military armor as, and other armor breaks your suspension of disbelief? The chick in that armor is completely exposed and has tons of room to wear other armor.


But anyway, I typically imagine military grade armor as more like the armor suits out of Halo, without the crazy energy shields. The picture in Arsenal looks eerily similar.

She's exposed because the "armor's" hatch is open. To be honest, it looks more like a vehicle to me.

I agree. I envision heavy milspec as more of an "ironman" suit.

Ah yeah I can see it now. I was going to say it was like the Iron Will thing out of Attitude, but given the hatch closes and covers completely, it could easily be a car converted to an anthropomorphic drone thing.



Yeah, Iron Man is another suitable example (though more high tech, what with the built in lasers and flying and whatnot). Point is still pretty much man sized/proportioned.

And one model fits in a briefcase! Although that model has limited abilities.

That's nothing. Stark ended up making a model that resides in his bones while not in use.

Wonder what happens when that model falls in love with him and wants him all to itself.

AFAIK, mil-spec armors assume a FFBA layer as part of the armor, and already factored in. If not, … they do now. *poof* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

He, um, actually did that. Made a suit that more or less fell in love with him and tried to keep him for itself.

It was an accident, though. Silly artificial intelligences going out of control.




-k