Not sure if this was discussed before, but I searched and couldn't find the answer. Apologies if I missed it.

I know that Military Armor (Arsenal, pages 50-51) does not allow other armor to be worn (ie: Form-Fitting Body Armor), but was wondering if SecureTech PPP System can be used, since PPP System does not count for the purposes of encumbrance, but modifies the rating of worn armor (Arsenal, page 49).

PPP is additional pieces of armor you can wear on top of existing armor, not a modification to the armor itself. Form-Fitting Body Armor is specifically designed to be worn under other armor (values add).

That said, "No other armor can be worn with military-grade armor" seems pretty definitive. So I would say no, you can't stack PPP with your military armor.

move along, nothing to see here

aka Mis-post

I'd say SecureTech pretty definitively works. Under SecureTech it specifically says it works like Shields/Helmets, which DO work with military armor explicitly (see: Military Helmets and Military shields).


Form Fitting Body Suits are more ambiguous. Personally, I say yes, because the wording for Form Fitting is similar to that used for Shields, Helmets, and SecureTech, but not identical, mostly because it needs to clarify its special case of only counting as half for encumbrance. The RAW seems iffy, but the intention seems to be for form fitting to be able to be used under any armor easily.

Arsenal pg 50-51

FFBA and PPP can be assumed to change the specific body contours.

So, unlike the implication above, they're don't work with "helmets", they work with a specific helmet.

This is about as straightforward as a rule gets.

Which raises the question: If the milspec armor can be customized to fit the specific contours of a person, why couldn't it be customized to fit the specific contours of a person wearing FormFit or PPP?






-k

An assumption. I could reasonably assume that the reason they don't typically count as another armor worn is because they don't change much.



Intended to be worn with a specific helmet. But it doesn't specifically say it can't work with any other helmet. This also says nothing at all about shields, unless you want to argue that for some reason your military grade armor can't work with a regular old riot shield and you MUST use a military shield to get the advantage.





SecureTech obviously does NOT count as armor worn, and thus can be worn with military armor no problem.




Like I mentioned before this one is more sketchy, and I could see it go either way. On the one hand, this one doesn't have the explicit statement that "this does not count as armor worn", and instead has "ignore the normal rule that different armors don't stack" but it seems to me the main reason it doesn't is because it needs to go on and explain how its encumbrance is handled differently.

Also, given the form fitting suit is already tailored to you, and your main issue is the military armor is also tailored to you, why couldn't you have the military armor tailored to you while you are wearing the form fitting armor?

Are you asking 'do the rules fail in a way that specifically allows this kind of cheating?' or 'is the setting world such that this combination is reasonable and intended?'? The answer to the latter is, 'obviously not, you munchkin'.

Why would you define it as cheating? If the rules say it works (such as with SecureTech) it's not cheating. If the rule is fuzzy (such as with form-fitting) where you can argue either way, why not ask if it is plausible in setting?


Ultimately, what it really does, is let people take better advantage of a high Body. I mean with 6 body, you can get heavy military armor and a helmet, and that's pretty much it. That's your 18. If you have 7 or 8 body, you're instantly getting less from it than at 6 body, unless you allow securetech or form fitting. Some people might say that's good, devalue Body. But the player spent resources on that, and there is no reason why his investment should suddenly not benefit him as much as it used to, especially since he paid more for it.

The short answer is: Yes you can. PPP and shields are not actually considered additional pieces of armor. I just got off a 12 hour shift so I don't feel like quoting rules right now, but the important bits are actually under Armor in the Combat section of the core book.

If that's the case, Seerow, just give everyone Body*X armor in exchange for X*k nuyen.

That would be one way to do it (and I wouldn't mind seeing military armor handled that way. It's already custom fitted to you and heavy/obvious so if you have the body to handle more why not stack more on it?), but if you did that as a universal thing very few people would settle for that level of abstraction. So what's wrong with having a few odds and ends you can wear with military armor to let the higher body characters take full advantage of that Body?




(As an aside: It is worth noting I don't necessarily agree with the way Body/Armor/Encumbrance works as a whole. But my views on alternative solutions have been discussed pretty much in depth over in the 5e topic, and has no real bearing on a rules discussion)

With no malice, what's wrong with it is that Body isn't for wearing more armor in a *fluff* sense, and there are fluff limits on how much armor can exist on a person, and there are balance issues with excessive armor ratings. It's not as simple as 'everyone gets Body*X', was my point. There are also ceilings, weapon balance, and other factors in play. If they *could* make milspec better than 18/18, they already would have.

If that is the case, then they flat out shouldn't have allowed for Body above 6. Alternatively, they should have left military armor at bodyx2 for encumbrance rather than bodyx3 (then suddenly heavy armor + helmet covers all the way up to Body 9, so everyone except a hardcapped troll).

Consider, if SecureTech and Undersuit aren't allowed with military armor, there is literally no armor difference in LMA and an Armored Jacket with the other items. The armored Jacket can actually get higher armor! (Though it requires more body. 7 Body for Armored Jacket + securetech + full form fitting suit, 5 body for LMA+Military Helmet. 16 vs 14 armor)

I understand high armor values can cause balance issues, but honestly, adding securetech and form fitting is about the smallest portion of that. The far bigger issues are natural armor bonuses, bone density/lacing bonuses, dermal sheathing, and cyberlimb bonuses all being available without any impact whatsoever on encumbrance. Those things will total to 25-30 armor if stacked up. Form Fitting + securetech is at most a increase of 8.

From an actual RAW sense, SecureTech works. Period. You can argue the FFA, but there is no argument that SecureTech is not counted as armor and works fine.

As for fluff sense, why couldn't that much armor exist on a person? They have the capability of carrying it, so why not? It's far too heavy for an unaugmented human to deal with, but that doesn't mean it's not physically possible, just not for most people.

You are wrong there. PPP does count for encumbrance just as any other armor item. It only does not count as separate armor for the calculation of the protective value of the ensemble. As such its armor value is added instead of just using the greatest value of all items.
Example:
Armor Jacket [8/6] + all PPP stuff [2/6]
gives you [10/12] and encumbers like [10/12]

Armor Vest [6/4] + Lined Coat [6/4]
gives you [6/4] but encumbers like [12/8]

Also there is SoftWeave (War, pages 160-161) which can be applied to Military-grade armor, allowing someone with Body 6 to have Heavy Military Armor and PPP. So the encumbrance is nullified, but PPP still doesn't count as separate armor such as FFBA would. Regardless I'm sold and more enlightened, since PPP acts like helmets or shields do, and anyone can have military armor and carry a shield (regardless of encumbrance penalty or not).

Milspec armor specifically states that it doesn't stack with any other worn armor. Seems pretty clear-cut to me.

You can, of course, still stack it with cyberlimb armor.

Seerow, 18/18+8 *is* '25-30'. As if +8 weren't huge deal regardless of the context, anyway. I'm not really arguing the RAW (though 'incompatible with other armor' seems clear to me; PPP are not shields). The purpose of Body is not 'wear armor'. That's an effect. Body 8 with 18 armor is still better (and different) than Body 6 with 18 armor, for toxins, diseases, damage resistance, etc. To reduce these things to direct lines (Body yields armor, period) is just silly, and that was my point.

As I said, if you only care about the numbers and the RAW, go nuts. In the game world, though, it simply makes no sense. It's bad rules interacting with bad rules creating bad, unintended results. It's not a value judgement; do what you enjoy.

Yes, but PPP is not considered worn armor.



EDIT: Since it modifies the armor worn and is not itself armor then PPP and shields are now considered Bod * 3 for encumberance also.

And 18/18+25 is 43. Which is what you get when dealing with stacked cyberlimbs and other armors that don't count towards encumbrance, then wearing armor on top of it.



But at that point Body is worth so much less. You are suddenly losing more than half your return on your investment. If you want to say Body above 6 is now half the price, sure. But that runs counter to everything else in the game.

If you want to argue having that much armor isn't balanced, that's fine. But from a RAW perspective, it works. From a RAI perspective, it works. From a fluff perspective, there's no reason it doesn't work. The only argument you have is the mechanics aren't balanced, which is fine... but if you want to go into house rule territory there are more effective options than this.

Arsenal 49

#1: "worn beneath other clothing" is clearly worn armor.
#2: "as sports equipment" If you want to argue this one, have fun. Arguing combining mil spec and sports equipment is not worth my time.
#3: "as an obvious strapped addition to other visible armor". Sorry, again, but that's worn armor, not modding armor.

I don't see any of the three configurations that aren't:
a) worn
and
b) armor.

Note for the SR5 thread. Arsenal's making armor that stacks (FFBA, PPP, items of a suit) was a really bad idea. Making suits single items (like actioneer) and not doing BS like PPP/FFBA was a SR4A decision (note that armor vest didn't stack) and throwing that decision out the window in Arsenal has caused no end of hassles. That doesn;t mean I don't like the idea of PPP #1 & #3, I just dislike them stacking. I even like #2 if it was strapped on to clothing for jobs like construction.

And that's *fine*, Seerow. No one said each point of Body is worth the same amount. It's actually crazy to think it could be, because of opportunity costs, diminishing returns, expected threat levels, etc. etc.

Neraph, those two quotes don't match. One says 'worn armor', the other says 'stacked armor'. But again, if the rules accidentally allow a given bad thing, that just means the rule is in error.

I'd expect something I had to pay more for (I'm paying 35 karma now as opposed to 15 karma a few points back?) would be AT LEAST as valuable as the thing I paid less for. Diminishing returns is a factor of the cost, if you make something have a lesser effect AND higher cost as it gets higher, that's basically the definition of useless.



Yes, it's considered armor in the same way that a shield or helmet is considered armor. Given you can use a helmet or a shield with military armor, you can use securetech. Period.

No, PPP is not considered STACKED armor.

The rules don't actually say "PPP is not worn armor". That might be your interpretation, but it's not in the text.

Worn armor is generally considered anything armor you wear, as opposed to armor integral to your body or conferred by a spell/power/other.


You don't wear a shield, you hold it. The helmet for a milspec suit is PART of that specific suit. PPP and Formfit are separate worn armor. Period.



-k

A Helmet is worn as well, and yet you can use it with Military Armor. I have no issue with Obvious PPP on the outside of Milspec Armor, but I would not allow FFBA underneath.

The ONLY helmet you can use with military armor is the helmet it's intended to be used with. See above quote.

In SR4A a shield does not count as a "separate piece of armor", but I see nowhere that says PPP does not count as a separate piece of armor. PPP clearly says that the rating is modified just LIKE with helmets and shields, but it's also clear that it's not the same thing. (It doesn't have the "Helmets and shields do not count as separate pieces of armor" clause).

Exclamation Point.

It doesn't need that clause, because it explicitly says it is treated like a helmet or shield!


Also, nowhere does it say that a non-military helmet can't be used with a military armor. It says it is intended to be used with the military helmet, but intended is not a descriptor that automatically disallows anything else. I'd consider somebody with access to military quality armor pretty stupid if they went for a securetech helmet or a security helmet instead, but I see no reason at all why it wouldn't be possible.

PPP Stacks it effects, however (See the whole +notation); it is not an Amor in and of itself, though you could wear it as such if you so chose. It adds to other armor. FFBA IS a Seperate Armor, and has no place underneath Military Armor at all.

On a more common-sense level, I would allow any helmet to be used with military armor, because the head isn't covered by the suit. I might not allow the milspec armor's chemseal to work with non-milspec helmets, though, as I can see them not sealing together properly - different connectors.

I might as a houserule allow PPP to be used on the outside of the milspec armor, but I'd probably require the user to obtain troll-sized versions at the higher troll-adapted prices. Milspec armor is damn bulky. But I cannot see it as anything but "worn armor" and thus forbidden by the rules text.




-k

Only for purposes of encumbrance. It's right there on pg 49 of Arsenal.


Getting mad does not change the written rules. I don't care what rules you play by. I'm just quoting the written rules in order to help the OP make up their own mind as to what rules and house rules they wish to use.

By that logic, Helmets and Shields only don't count as separate armor for purposes of encumbrance, and shouldn't work either.


They literally work the same way. Trying to void one and not the other by twisting the wording is just being intentionally obtuse.

SR4A 327


Notice that the sentences are not the same. PPP has added "for purposes of encumbrance". Helmets and shields say no such thing.

One of these things is not like the other.

You mean like paying .5 power points for a +2 enhancement on one thing, or .5 for a +1 enhancement on 4 things? Seems a little lopsided, especially when the +2 enhanceent needs another 4 already invested to even work.

There are lots of things in SR that are not equivalent values. In this Body example alone, a human buying max body is paying 25 more points for number 6 at character generation, which gets him potential 18 mil-spec, and one dice on DR and disease tests, and 2 to healing. From 4 to 5, he gets those increases as well as another box of damage. That is not exactly the same value, and costs more then twice as much.

suoq, you forget the basic rules about armor and encumbrance. Regardless of whether an item is considered a separate piece of armor for the purpose of encumbrance every single item adds to encumbrance, unless specified otherwise:

Exactly: errors in balance and costs don't create logical implications on the game world like that. There are bows that *can't* make use of increased strength… sorry, no matter how much you paid for that strength.

I'm pretty sure that since I didn't write the rules I'm quoting, I didn't forget the basic rules. Now the person who wrote Arsenal may have forgotten them (assuming he ever read them in the first place), but that's not something I have any control over.

This is a big reason why karmagen is much better.

I'm still not following why you believe PPP and FFBA count as different types of things. Both can be worn under and add their armor values to existing armor. The only difference is that PPP is sold in pieces.

All that aside, if your table wants to rule you can strap pieces of PPP to the outside of your milspec armor or have your armor designed to be form fitting to the form of you wearing FFBA with PPP then more power to you...[**Removed by Poster**]

Debate, disagree, even argue if you must, but keep it to the topic. Personal attacks simply escalate to flame wars, no matter how innocuous that attack may initially seem.

Based on my interpretation of the rules, PPP should stack with MilSpec armor, but FFBA should not. However, FCA + FFBA + PPP is perfectly legal. However, any GM who allows a player to even wear MilSpec armor in the first place must make sure that the opponents are strong enough to present a challenge, and should make the character have to deal with transporting MilSpec armor, because it's forbidden. Hot Sim modified commlinks are one thing, but MilSpec armor? If there are game balance issues, such as soaking all the damage from getting shot at point-blank with a hold out (arguably, it's not my fault I soaked the damage - why was that ninja using a hold out instead of a heavy pistol?), then FFBA, PPP, and/or MilSpec armor should be adjudicated such that everyone enjoys the game.
As an aside, the game I'm in right now doesn't allow PPP to stack like shields or helmets. It can only stack with other parts of PPP, meaning that you can use it to get up to 2/6 armor. And FFBA no longer stacks with other armor, and counts its full rating when determining encumbrance, instead of half. And no softweave.

Very true - rule interpretation aside, Milspec armor isn't exactly something you can go tooling around Seattle in. Unless you're regularly performing military incursions on 3rd world countries there aren't too many situations you could use it in that wouldn't result in an immediate escalation in the armed response. Really, especially since it has to be custom fit, it shouldn't be something you can get simply with a black market contact and a few die rolls.

AFAIK I haven't seen a showrun depction of heavy milspec armor. We usually assume it's something like either of these:

Heavy Milspec Armor A La Appleseed
NSFW - Appleseed Landmate

We definitively don't allow PPP to be worn with any milspec because for us it breaks the suspension of disbelief. Who in their right mind is going to put arm/shin guards on one of these? And wearing them under the suit is likewise logistically unreasonable. We do allow Form Fit because it seems to be more cinematically reasonable. In the second picture she's wearing a full body suit already, no reason it can't be bullet proof-ish.

Seriously, that's what you envision military armor as, and other armor breaks your suspension of disbelief? The chick in that armor is completely exposed and has tons of room to wear other armor.


But anyway, I typically imagine military grade armor as more like the armor suits out of Halo, without the crazy energy shields. The picture in Arsenal looks eerily similar.

She's exposed because the "armor's" hatch is open. To be honest, it looks more like a vehicle to me.

I agree. I envision heavy milspec as more of an "ironman" suit.

Ah yeah I can see it now. I was going to say it was like the Iron Will thing out of Attitude, but given the hatch closes and covers completely, it could easily be a car converted to an anthropomorphic drone thing.



Yeah, Iron Man is another suitable example (though more high tech, what with the built in lasers and flying and whatnot). Point is still pretty much man sized/proportioned.

And one model fits in a briefcase! Although that model has limited abilities.

That's nothing. Stark ended up making a model that resides in his bones while not in use.

Wonder what happens when that model falls in love with him and wants him all to itself.

AFAIK, mil-spec armors assume a FFBA layer as part of the armor, and already factored in. If not, … they do now. *poof*

He, um, actually did that. Made a suit that more or less fell in love with him and tried to keep him for itself.

It was an accident, though. Silly artificial intelligences going out of control.




-k