IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

5 Pages V   1 2 3 > »   
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Heavy Military Armor and SecureTech PPP System Question, Can milspec armor and PPP system be combined?
Major Doom
post Sep 21 2011, 11:25 PM
Post #1


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 66
Joined: 13-October 10
From: This Toilet Earth
Member No.: 19,111



Not sure if this was discussed before, but I searched and couldn't find the answer. Apologies if I missed it.

I know that Military Armor (Arsenal, pages 50-51) does not allow other armor to be worn (ie: Form-Fitting Body Armor), but was wondering if SecureTech PPP System can be used, since PPP System does not count for the purposes of encumbrance, but modifies the rating of worn armor (Arsenal, page 49).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Stalag
post Sep 22 2011, 01:13 AM
Post #2


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 268
Joined: 2-September 11
Member No.: 37,159



QUOTE (Major Doom @ Sep 21 2011, 06:25 PM) *
Not sure if this was discussed before, but I searched and couldn't find the answer. Apologies if I missed it.

I know that Military Armor (Arsenal, pages 50-51) does not allow other armor to be worn (ie: Form-Fitting Body Armor), but was wondering if SecureTech PPP System can be used, since PPP System does not count for the purposes of encumbrance, but modifies the rating of worn armor (Arsenal, page 49).


PPP is additional pieces of armor you can wear on top of existing armor, not a modification to the armor itself. Form-Fitting Body Armor is specifically designed to be worn under other armor (values add).

That said, "No other armor can be worn with military-grade armor" seems pretty definitive. So I would say no, you can't stack PPP with your military armor.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
fazzamar
post Sep 22 2011, 01:18 AM
Post #3


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 174
Joined: 28-February 08
Member No.: 15,719



move along, nothing to see here (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

aka Mis-post
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Seerow
post Sep 22 2011, 01:20 AM
Post #4


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 705
Joined: 3-April 11
Member No.: 26,658



I'd say SecureTech pretty definitively works. Under SecureTech it specifically says it works like Shields/Helmets, which DO work with military armor explicitly (see: Military Helmets and Military shields).


Form Fitting Body Suits are more ambiguous. Personally, I say yes, because the wording for Form Fitting is similar to that used for Shields, Helmets, and SecureTech, but not identical, mostly because it needs to clarify its special case of only counting as half for encumbrance. The RAW seems iffy, but the intention seems to be for form fitting to be able to be used under any armor easily.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
suoq
post Sep 22 2011, 02:36 AM
Post #5


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,272
Joined: 22-June 10
From: Omaha. NE
Member No.: 18,746



Arsenal pg 50-51
QUOTE
Each suit must be custom-fit to an individual, tailored to her specific body contours and range of motion

FFBA and PPP can be assumed to change the specific body contours.
QUOTE
All these armors are intended to be worn in conjunction with the appropriate helmet to offer optimal protection

So, unlike the implication above, they're don't work with "helmets", they work with a specific helmet.
QUOTE
No other armor can be worn with military-grade armor.

This is about as straightforward as a rule gets.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
KarmaInferno
post Sep 22 2011, 02:42 AM
Post #6


Old Man Jones
********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 4,415
Joined: 26-February 02
From: New York
Member No.: 1,699



Which raises the question: If the milspec armor can be customized to fit the specific contours of a person, why couldn't it be customized to fit the specific contours of a person wearing FormFit or PPP?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)




-k
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Seerow
post Sep 22 2011, 02:46 AM
Post #7


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 705
Joined: 3-April 11
Member No.: 26,658



QUOTE (suoq @ Sep 22 2011, 03:36 AM) *
Arsenal pg 50-51

FFBA and PPP can be assumed to change the specific body contours.


An assumption. I could reasonably assume that the reason they don't typically count as another armor worn is because they don't change much.

QUOTE
So, unlike the implication above, they're don't work with "helmets", they work with a specific helmet.


Intended to be worn with a specific helmet. But it doesn't specifically say it can't work with any other helmet. This also says nothing at all about shields, unless you want to argue that for some reason your military grade armor can't work with a regular old riot shield and you MUST use a military shield to get the advantage.



QUOTE (SecureTech AR 49)
These armor pieces do not count as separate armor for purposes of encumbrance; instead, these items modify the rating of armor worn by their rating just as helmets and shields do (see Helmets and Shields, p. 317, SR4, and Armor and Encumbrance, p. 149, SR4).


SecureTech obviously does NOT count as armor worn, and thus can be worn with military armor no problem.

QUOTE (Form Fitting Body Armor AR48)
When worn in combination with other pieces of armor, the form-fit armor rating is added to the other armor’s rating (ignore the rule that only the highest value applies in the case of form-fitting armor). When determining encumbrance, however, add only half the rating (round down) of form-fitting body armor to the ratings of other armor when comparing them to the wearer’s Body x 2 (see Armor and Encumbrance, p. 149, SR4).



Like I mentioned before this one is more sketchy, and I could see it go either way. On the one hand, this one doesn't have the explicit statement that "this does not count as armor worn", and instead has "ignore the normal rule that different armors don't stack" but it seems to me the main reason it doesn't is because it needs to go on and explain how its encumbrance is handled differently.

Also, given the form fitting suit is already tailored to you, and your main issue is the military armor is also tailored to you, why couldn't you have the military armor tailored to you while you are wearing the form fitting armor?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Yerameyahu
post Sep 22 2011, 02:55 AM
Post #8


Advocatus Diaboli
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 13,994
Joined: 20-November 07
From: USA
Member No.: 14,282



Are you asking 'do the rules fail in a way that specifically allows this kind of cheating?' or 'is the setting world such that this combination is reasonable and intended?'? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) The answer to the latter is, 'obviously not, you munchkin'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Seerow
post Sep 22 2011, 03:01 AM
Post #9


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 705
Joined: 3-April 11
Member No.: 26,658



QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 22 2011, 03:55 AM) *
Are you asking 'do the rules fail in a way that specifically allows this kind of cheating?' or 'is the setting world such that this combination is reasonable and intended?'? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


Why would you define it as cheating? If the rules say it works (such as with SecureTech) it's not cheating. If the rule is fuzzy (such as with form-fitting) where you can argue either way, why not ask if it is plausible in setting?


Ultimately, what it really does, is let people take better advantage of a high Body. I mean with 6 body, you can get heavy military armor and a helmet, and that's pretty much it. That's your 18. If you have 7 or 8 body, you're instantly getting less from it than at 6 body, unless you allow securetech or form fitting. Some people might say that's good, devalue Body. But the player spent resources on that, and there is no reason why his investment should suddenly not benefit him as much as it used to, especially since he paid more for it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neraph
post Sep 22 2011, 04:12 AM
Post #10


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,542
Joined: 30-September 08
From: D/FW Megaplex
Member No.: 16,387



The short answer is: Yes you can. PPP and shields are not actually considered additional pieces of armor. I just got off a 12 hour shift so I don't feel like quoting rules right now, but the important bits are actually under Armor in the Combat section of the core book.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Yerameyahu
post Sep 22 2011, 04:17 AM
Post #11


Advocatus Diaboli
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 13,994
Joined: 20-November 07
From: USA
Member No.: 14,282



If that's the case, Seerow, just give everyone Body*X armor in exchange for X*k nuyen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Seerow
post Sep 22 2011, 04:20 AM
Post #12


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 705
Joined: 3-April 11
Member No.: 26,658



QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 22 2011, 05:17 AM) *
If that's the case, Seerow, just give everyone Body*X armor in exchange for X*k nuyen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


That would be one way to do it (and I wouldn't mind seeing military armor handled that way. It's already custom fitted to you and heavy/obvious so if you have the body to handle more why not stack more on it?), but if you did that as a universal thing very few people would settle for that level of abstraction. So what's wrong with having a few odds and ends you can wear with military armor to let the higher body characters take full advantage of that Body?




(As an aside: It is worth noting I don't necessarily agree with the way Body/Armor/Encumbrance works as a whole. But my views on alternative solutions have been discussed pretty much in depth over in the 5e topic, and has no real bearing on a rules discussion)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Yerameyahu
post Sep 22 2011, 04:31 AM
Post #13


Advocatus Diaboli
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 13,994
Joined: 20-November 07
From: USA
Member No.: 14,282



With no malice, what's wrong with it is that Body isn't for wearing more armor in a *fluff* sense, and there are fluff limits on how much armor can exist on a person, and there are balance issues with excessive armor ratings. It's not as simple as 'everyone gets Body*X', was my point. There are also ceilings, weapon balance, and other factors in play. If they *could* make milspec better than 18/18, they already would have.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Seerow
post Sep 22 2011, 04:47 AM
Post #14


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 705
Joined: 3-April 11
Member No.: 26,658



QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 22 2011, 05:31 AM) *
With no malice, what's wrong with it is that Body isn't for wearing more armor in a *fluff* sense, and there are fluff limits on how much armor can exist on a person, and there are balance issues with excessive armor ratings. It's not as simple as 'everyone gets Body*X', was my point. There are also ceilings, weapon balance, and other factors in play. If they *could* make milspec better than 18/18, they already would have.


If that is the case, then they flat out shouldn't have allowed for Body above 6. Alternatively, they should have left military armor at bodyx2 for encumbrance rather than bodyx3 (then suddenly heavy armor + helmet covers all the way up to Body 9, so everyone except a hardcapped troll).

Consider, if SecureTech and Undersuit aren't allowed with military armor, there is literally no armor difference in LMA and an Armored Jacket with the other items. The armored Jacket can actually get higher armor! (Though it requires more body. 7 Body for Armored Jacket + securetech + full form fitting suit, 5 body for LMA+Military Helmet. 16 vs 14 armor)

I understand high armor values can cause balance issues, but honestly, adding securetech and form fitting is about the smallest portion of that. The far bigger issues are natural armor bonuses, bone density/lacing bonuses, dermal sheathing, and cyberlimb bonuses all being available without any impact whatsoever on encumbrance. Those things will total to 25-30 armor if stacked up. Form Fitting + securetech is at most a increase of 8.

From an actual RAW sense, SecureTech works. Period. You can argue the FFA, but there is no argument that SecureTech is not counted as armor and works fine.

As for fluff sense, why couldn't that much armor exist on a person? They have the capability of carrying it, so why not? It's far too heavy for an unaugmented human to deal with, but that doesn't mean it's not physically possible, just not for most people.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Dakka Dakka
post Sep 22 2011, 07:48 AM
Post #15


Prime Runner
*******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,507
Joined: 11-November 08
Member No.: 16,582



QUOTE (Major Doom @ Sep 22 2011, 01:25 AM) *
since PPP System does not count for the purposes of encumbrance, but modifies the rating of worn armor (Arsenal, page 49).
You are wrong there. PPP does count for encumbrance just as any other armor item. It only does not count as separate armor for the calculation of the protective value of the ensemble. As such its armor value is added instead of just using the greatest value of all items.
Example:
Armor Jacket [8/6] + all PPP stuff [2/6]
gives you [10/12] and encumbers like [10/12]

Armor Vest [6/4] + Lined Coat [6/4]
gives you [6/4] but encumbers like [12/8]
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Major Doom
post Sep 22 2011, 01:04 PM
Post #16


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 66
Joined: 13-October 10
From: This Toilet Earth
Member No.: 19,111



Also there is SoftWeave (War, pages 160-161) which can be applied to Military-grade armor, allowing someone with Body 6 to have Heavy Military Armor and PPP. So the encumbrance is nullified, but PPP still doesn't count as separate armor such as FFBA would. Regardless I'm sold and more enlightened, since PPP acts like helmets or shields do, and anyone can have military armor and carry a shield (regardless of encumbrance penalty or not).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Loch
post Sep 22 2011, 01:07 PM
Post #17


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 189
Joined: 21-February 11
Member No.: 22,370



Milspec armor specifically states that it doesn't stack with any other worn armor. Seems pretty clear-cut to me.

You can, of course, still stack it with cyberlimb armor. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Yerameyahu
post Sep 22 2011, 01:09 PM
Post #18


Advocatus Diaboli
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 13,994
Joined: 20-November 07
From: USA
Member No.: 14,282



Seerow, 18/18+8 *is* '25-30'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) As if +8 weren't huge deal regardless of the context, anyway. I'm not really arguing the RAW (though 'incompatible with other armor' seems clear to me; PPP are not shields). The purpose of Body is not 'wear armor'. That's an effect. Body 8 with 18 armor is still better (and different) than Body 6 with 18 armor, for toxins, diseases, damage resistance, etc. To reduce these things to direct lines (Body yields armor, period) is just silly, and that was my point.

As I said, if you only care about the numbers and the RAW, go nuts. In the game world, though, it simply makes no sense. It's bad rules interacting with bad rules creating bad, unintended results. It's not a value judgement; do what you enjoy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neraph
post Sep 22 2011, 03:32 PM
Post #19


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,542
Joined: 30-September 08
From: D/FW Megaplex
Member No.: 16,387



QUOTE (Loch @ Sep 22 2011, 08:07 AM) *
Milspec armor specifically states that it doesn't stack with any other worn armor. Seems pretty clear-cut to me.

Yes, but PPP is not considered worn armor.

QUOTE (SR4A, page 161, Armor And Encumberance, first paragraph, second sentence)
Note that some armor items, like helmets and shields, provide a modifier to the worn armor rating and so do not count as stacked armor.


EDIT: Since it modifies the armor worn and is not itself armor then PPP and shields are now considered Bod * 3 for encumberance also.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Seerow
post Sep 22 2011, 03:39 PM
Post #20


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 705
Joined: 3-April 11
Member No.: 26,658



QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 22 2011, 02:09 PM) *
Seerow, 18/18+8 *is* '25-30'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


And 18/18+25 is 43. Which is what you get when dealing with stacked cyberlimbs and other armors that don't count towards encumbrance, then wearing armor on top of it.

QUOTE
I'm not really arguing the RAW (though 'incompatible with other armor' seems clear to me; PPP are not shields). The purpose of Body is not 'wear armor'. That's an effect. Body 8 with 18 armor is still better (and different) than Body 6 with 18 armor, for toxins, diseases, damage resistance, etc. To reduce these things to direct lines (Body yields armor, period) is just silly, and that was my point.


But at that point Body is worth so much less. You are suddenly losing more than half your return on your investment. If you want to say Body above 6 is now half the price, sure. But that runs counter to everything else in the game.

If you want to argue having that much armor isn't balanced, that's fine. But from a RAW perspective, it works. From a RAI perspective, it works. From a fluff perspective, there's no reason it doesn't work. The only argument you have is the mechanics aren't balanced, which is fine... but if you want to go into house rule territory there are more effective options than this.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
suoq
post Sep 22 2011, 03:59 PM
Post #21


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,272
Joined: 22-June 10
From: Omaha. NE
Member No.: 18,746



QUOTE (Neraph @ Sep 22 2011, 10:32 AM) *
Yes, but PPP is not considered worn armor.

Arsenal 49
QUOTE
Each piece of armor is available in at least three styles: as discreet protection designed to be worn beneath other clothing, as an obvious strapped addition to other visible armor, and as sports equipment.

#1: "worn beneath other clothing" is clearly worn armor.
#2: "as sports equipment" If you want to argue this one, have fun. Arguing combining mil spec and sports equipment is not worth my time.
#3: "as an obvious strapped addition to other visible armor". Sorry, again, but that's worn armor, not modding armor.

I don't see any of the three configurations that aren't:
a) worn
and
b) armor.

Note for the SR5 thread. Arsenal's making armor that stacks (FFBA, PPP, items of a suit) was a really bad idea. Making suits single items (like actioneer) and not doing BS like PPP/FFBA was a SR4A decision (note that armor vest didn't stack) and throwing that decision out the window in Arsenal has caused no end of hassles. That doesn;t mean I don't like the idea of PPP #1 & #3, I just dislike them stacking. I even like #2 if it was strapped on to clothing for jobs like construction.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Yerameyahu
post Sep 22 2011, 04:00 PM
Post #22


Advocatus Diaboli
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 13,994
Joined: 20-November 07
From: USA
Member No.: 14,282



And that's *fine*, Seerow. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) No one said each point of Body is worth the same amount. It's actually crazy to think it could be, because of opportunity costs, diminishing returns, expected threat levels, etc. etc.

Neraph, those two quotes don't match. One says 'worn armor', the other says 'stacked armor'. But again, if the rules accidentally allow a given bad thing, that just means the rule is in error. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Seerow
post Sep 22 2011, 04:03 PM
Post #23


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 705
Joined: 3-April 11
Member No.: 26,658



QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 22 2011, 05:00 PM) *
And that's *fine*, Seerow. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) No one said each point of Body is worth the same amount. It's actually crazy to think it could be, because of opportunity costs, diminishing returns, expected threat levels, etc. etc.


I'd expect something I had to pay more for (I'm paying 35 karma now as opposed to 15 karma a few points back?) would be AT LEAST as valuable as the thing I paid less for. Diminishing returns is a factor of the cost, if you make something have a lesser effect AND higher cost as it gets higher, that's basically the definition of useless.

QUOTE
#1: "worn beneath other clothing" is clearly worn armor.
#2: "as sports equipment" If you want to argue this one, have fun. Arguing combining mil spec and sports equipment is not worth my time.
#3: "as an obvious strapped addition to other visible armor". Sorry, again, but that's worn armor, not modding armor.

I don't see any of the three configurations that aren't:
a) worn
and
b) armor.


Yes, it's considered armor in the same way that a shield or helmet is considered armor. Given you can use a helmet or a shield with military armor, you can use securetech. Period.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
KarmaInferno
post Sep 22 2011, 04:10 PM
Post #24


Old Man Jones
********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 4,415
Joined: 26-February 02
From: New York
Member No.: 1,699



QUOTE (Neraph @ Sep 22 2011, 10:32 AM) *
Yes, but PPP is not considered worn armor.

QUOTE
Note that some armor items, like helmets and shields, provide a modifier to the worn armor rating and so do not count as stacked armor.

EDIT: Since it modifies the armor worn and is not itself armor then PPP and shields are now considered Bod * 3 for encumberance also.


No, PPP is not considered STACKED armor.

The rules don't actually say "PPP is not worn armor". That might be your interpretation, but it's not in the text.

Worn armor is generally considered anything armor you wear, as opposed to armor integral to your body or conferred by a spell/power/other.

QUOTE ( @ Sep 22 2011, 11:03 AM) *
Yes, it's considered armor in the same way that a shield or helmet is considered armor. Given you can use a helmet or a shield with military armor, you can use securetech. Period.

You don't wear a shield, you hold it. The helmet for a milspec suit is PART of that specific suit. PPP and Formfit are separate worn armor. Period.



-k
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Sep 22 2011, 04:14 PM
Post #25


Prime Runner Ascendant
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 17,568
Joined: 26-March 09
From: Aurora, Colorado
Member No.: 17,022



QUOTE (suoq @ Sep 22 2011, 09:59 AM) *
Arsenal 49

#1: "worn beneath other clothing" is clearly worn armor.
#2: "as sports equipment" If you want to argue this one, have fun. Arguing combining mil spec and sports equipment is not worth my time.
#3: "as an obvious strapped addition to other visible armor". Sorry, again, but that's worn armor, not modding armor.

I don't see any of the three configurations that aren't:
a) worn
and
b) armor.

Note for the SR5 thread. Arsenal's making armor that stacks (FFBA, PPP, items of a suit) was a really bad idea. Making suits single items (like actioneer) and not doing BS like PPP/FFBA was a SR4A decision (note that armor vest didn't stack) and throwing that decision out the window in Arsenal has caused no end of hassles.


A Helmet is worn as well, and yet you can use it with Military Armor. I have no issue with Obvious PPP on the outside of Milspec Armor, but I would not allow FFBA underneath.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

5 Pages V   1 2 3 > » 
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 29th March 2024 - 02:52 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.