We borrow heavily from Ghost in the Shell and the Togashi Kovacs novels. As we see it, all of the milspec armors are powered (basically strength assisted, aiding in the Body x3 encumbrance) and designed specifically for military applications, eg. noticeably not good for anything else.

It seems that everyone can agree that wearing heavy milspec in public is not a good idea, even for shadow runners. The Halo and Iron Mans style suits we use for Light milspec. They look like advanced SWAT suits. If a shadow runner ducked into a bar with an Iron Man/Halo suit on, it would be impressive, but wouldn't really invoke the shock 'n awe we typically reserve for the heavy Milspecs.

They look awesome, armor for a real pro. But they don't scream "i need to get out of here to avoid being paste, cause this guy's serious."

My thought is that Mil Armor isn't really discouraged in SR because it is that awe inspiring, but because it is forbidden to wear. It isn't exactly low key, if you're wearing it anyone who can see you will notice, and that can definitely attract attention from the wrong people. You better have real good quality fake SINs and Licenses if you want to just wear that shit around.

You cannot have a license for a Forbidden item.

Poof?

Yes. Via magic, I have made it so. Hehe.

Okay then... So let it be written, So let it be done...

I'd see Halo as Medium... I'd see this as heavy

Agreed. Arsenal describes it as preposterously heavy armor, and it is.

in Warhammer 40K, though, the armor's effectiveness seems directly linked to how badass the wearer is.

You see grunts getting one-shot all the time in the big gigantic battles, whereas hero units that ostensibly don't have armor THAT much better than the grunt sometimes take a battalion's worth of firepower to take down.

Emperor help you in WH40K if you don't actually have a name.



-k

Go out and die for your God-Emperor!

It always bugged me how Warhammer characters without helmets always seem more impervious to harm than their mooklink counterparts.

I guess the helmet keeps the Plot Shields bottled up inside the armor where it doesn't help as much.

They actually can't see a thing in those helmets and don't know when to dodge.

For balance reasons (and because it's the cleanest reading of the rules), I've always prohibited Milspec from being combined with any other armour at all. But SWAT doesn't have that restriction. SWAT + FFA + PPP becomes the heaviest armour in the game. So now the goons get a choice between the maximum armour of SWAT, or the cool customizations of MilSpec. I like those kind of trade-offs.

Show me a non-troll goon who can actually walk around with SWAT Armor + FFBA + PPP. The full Set encumbers like 19/17 for 22/18 Protection. You would need real BOD 10 to use it without penalty.
Heavy MilSpec Armor without Mobility Upgrade can be worn with BOD 6.

Yeah, I'm pretty okay with that. SWAT++ is a goofy, crazy pile of heavy stuff, and the rules reflect it. Fair.

SoftWeave from War helps.

That's like saying, 'cheating helps'. How much does it cost, anyway? It'd be fine if it were expensive.

It modifies the Availability of the armor by +3, and has a cost multiplier x1.1. SoftWeave is WIN.

See, I thought so. It should be cost x2 at least. Probably a lot more, given the factor by which it increases your total armor. Facrissake, that's why WAR is cheating.

If you're not cheating, you're not trying.

So by your logic wearing MilSpec makes you incapable of picking up a shield? Interesting.

It's not as bad as many people think it is. It's still power creep, don't get me wrong, but since BOTH ballistic and impact are checked to see if you are over-Body, and Softweave only reduces the impact of the higher rating, it's usually at best a couple extra points.



-k

Softweave PPP usually makes it weigh nothing for encumberance. All but Leg/Arm and Vitals, that is.

Hm. I suppose. On PPP it mostly only effects the Impact encumbrance, though.

Softweave really should only give it's effect once for an entire suit.



-k

And not be allowed at all on PPP? Yes, obviously.

Neraph, a shield is not a PPP piece. A passing similarity in their encumbrance calculation does not make them the same category of item. And, since you ask, no: no one wearing mil-spec should ever pick a shield. The gods should smite them for such foolishness.

Is it RAW that Softweave can be applied to PPP? That seems like putting cheese on your cheese, in the context of someone who is already using MilSpec.

I doubt it is the intention, but yes it is RAW as PPP is armor. "All armor types are available as SoftWeave armor" (WAR p. 161)"

And can you Softweave a helmet, and/or a shield? I'm just checking that people actually think that PPP is armor when it helps, and *not* armor when *that* helps.

You noticed that too, huh? I've found things get a LOT more consistent when you declare that armor mods can only be applied to something considered a "primary" suit of armor. Anything you add onto your base armor is just that, an add-on, and can't have its own add-ons. I like to think of it in crunch terms as they spent their modification slots on the "stacks with other armor" gimmick.

Dakka - you're wrong with regards to PPP, and I quote -



It's RIGHT ON PAGE 49.

I will, however, agree with the majority's interpretation that it would not stack with milspec armor. IMHO, it's just common sense. Any player or GM that would try/allow it is trying to looking for a gray area where there really is none.

Pg 51, Arsenal


Pg 49, Arsenal
PPP Securetech defines itself as


There is no debate. Again, IMO, milspec armor (which is custom made) contains all of the pieces and parts available, piecemeal, via PPP SecureTech items.

Greegan, that's not what Dakka Dakka said. He said that *while* they don't count as *separate* items, they still *count*. If your armor is 18/16 with PPP, you're encumbered at 18/16. Just as helmets do. I think we all agree.

Yes, Thank You... I was trying to come up with a reply, but yours was much better. And you completed yours first, so, I go with that.

Which leads back to:

A) By this logic Helmets Shields can't be used with military armor. Despite there being military helmets and shields. Would it make you feel better if we made availability 20 military securetech?

B) Normal street level armor you can wear anywhere actually offering the same or more protection than military armor. Military armor may have access to some fancier upgrades and be less encumbering, but joe schmoe on the street who is stacking other armors is more resistant to being shot up. Light Military armor is only 14 armor with the helmet. Medium is 16, Heavy is 18. Guy with a Armored Jacket, Securetech, and full undersuit, has 16-18 (depending on helmet). And that's before even considering SWAT armor, which is a full 4 armor beyond that, and explicitly works with securetech and the like.



I mean, the restrictions on when you can get away with wearing military armor are already harsh enough, what's the point of that if it's not actually any better? A higher body character is better off layering armor that he can wear anywhere than he is wearing military armor. What you do by restricting anything from working with military armor is make military armor the exclusive province of lower body characters, because their main benefit is reduced encumbrance, which is stupid. (for example, a Body 2 character gives 6 max encumbrance with mil armor. light military armor with mobility 3 lets the body 2 character get away with wearing it with only a -1 penalty. The body 3 character can wear it with only mobility 2, and body 4 doesn't need mobility at all.)

Oops, I see...my mistake!!! Apologies

While you may be right in general, your math is off.
BOD 2 can wear 6 points of military armor without penalty. Every 2 points above that (of each armor type) accumulates a -1. Light military armor has a value of 12/10 even without a helmet. So you are 6 and 4 points above the limit which nets you a -5. Even the best mobility Upgrade can only reduce that penalty to -2. Since you usually wear a helmet with MilSpec Armor, the penalty is 2 higher.

Mil-spec armor already includes its *specific* helmet.

Seerow, *shrug*. If that's the case, the solution is to increase the rating of mil-spec armor, not to allow stupid PPP with it.

It tracks impact above and ballistic above separately? I was under the impression it only tracked the highest, in which case it would be:

14/12 with a helmet. You have 6 for free, giving you a -4 penalty. So you get mobility 3 and take only a -1.

I'll have to double check the encumbrance rules to verify that, but assuming you're right then that makes normal light mil armor have a -2 as you noted for a 2 bod character. A 3 bod character wears light mil with a helmet for 14/12 and 9 max encumbrance, totaling 8 above, so -1, or -0 with the helmet.

4 body character wears 12 with no penalty, helmet takes mobility 1 (14/12). Medium takes mobility 1 (14/12), and Medium with helmet takes 3 (16/14). 5 body character can wear 15 with no penalty, thus getting light with helmet or medium with no penalty, medium with helmet needs mobility 1, and heavy with helmet (18/16) is a total of 4 over needing mobility 2. 6 body just doesn't take mobility.


On the other end of things, a full body suit + securetech = 8/6 armor, and counts as 5/5 for encumbrance. Adding on an Armored Jacket is 16/14, and 13/13 for encumbrance, so a -1 penalty for a 6 body character, but can be worn pretty much anywhere without raising too many eyebrows. Basically anyone 6 body or higher is going to want to stack up other armors because it is more versatile for the same or better protection. (The theoretical best is tossing on a swat helmet for +2/2, and swat armor for 12/10, for 22/20 armor, but that's hard even for a troll to wear, but at least it's only R, and it is a full 4/2 better than the absolute best military grade armor).




Wait, so now you're trying to argue that the values for military armor already include the armor bonus from wearing a military helmet? So the absolute best armor someone wearing milspec armor in your games could get is 16/14?

Because I'm going to point out once again you can get that much wearing a completely legal armored jacket, without even wearing a helmet, with 6 body.



Doesn't that have the same net effect, except removing the option for a lower body character to wear it? Why not just leave the option there so people can tailor the armor to fit themselves?

Because it is ridiculously incompatible with the fluff. Numerically, it might be the same (I don't know).

I'm pretty fine with 'the point' of mil-spec meaning that normal people can wear significantly more armor, but the fluff is also that wearing it *alone* makes someone 'a one-man battle group'. If that means simply raising the rating, that's the right solution.

So your special ops marine guys don't actually wear milspec armor, because despite all the neat gadgets you can get for it, they're more likely to die in it. That is what you view as the option that is compatible with fluff.

If this was directed at me, I know, I only did the calculation without the MilSpec helmet. As I wrote a light MilSpec Armor with appropriate helmet would give the BOD 2 wearer a -7 to AGI and REA, which could be reduced to -4 by a Rating 3 Mobility Upgrade.
BOD 3 can wear a helmetless Light MilSpec Armor without penalty if the Mobility Upgrade (3) is installed. With the helmet he is facing at least -2
BOD 4 can wear the armor without helmet and penalty. For the added helmet he would need Mobility Upgrade (1)

@Seerow: Yes it does track each type of armor separately:

No, Dakka Dakka, not you. It was in response to the question, 'are you saying you can't wear a helmet with mil-spec?'.

And your answer still makes no sense. A Military Helmet has its own capacity, and costs nearly as much as light military grade armor itself does. If you roll it in, you're both denying the player 5 extra capacity he should have, and saving him 10,000 nuyen. Or explained why a shield wouldn't work with military armor but does with non-military armor.


I mean you're coming up with a lot of really weird justifications to make something not work.

No. PPP is not a shield. PPP helmet is not the *specific* mil-spec helmet. There's no contradiction. There's no 'rolling in'.

Seerow, I don't understand your special ops comment at all. Are you saying they'd wear heavy SWAT armor with PPP strapped on, and a shield? As I said repeatedly, if mil-spec isn't *safe* enough, increase the rating.

I think one of the bigger advantages of MilSpec armor has already been addressed - x3 BOD vs. x2. Sure the overall protection might be equal or (perhaps) lesser than a bunch of layered fluff, but I can MOVE it in easier and suffer less of a penalty for wearing it. Trying to make the rating higher than street armor + fluff....well, as MAJ Horton put it, "oh, that dog just ain't gonna hunt!".

Don't forget the other goodies unavailable to SWAT Armor:

• +3 dice to running Tests
• uncapped +3 STR
• recoil compensation (Foot Anchor, Gyromount)
• Integrated weaponry

So even if Milspec Armor nets you 1 or 2 fewer hits, the possible upgrades will probably mean that you are less often in situations where you need to roll.

No doubt!

I forgot one: Removal of the attacker running modifier while shooting (through the gyromount)

I made my statement assuming the general concensus of "PPP = Armor," in which case you can Softweave it. Under my assumption that it's an additive that follows the rules of shields and helmets (which I think I will convert from a RAW argument to a house rule - there's enough of a legitimate argument that it is armor to make me cede this point), however, it would not be able to benefit from Softweave. In fact I don't actually like Softweave at all and it is not allowed in my games.

You are correct, only the highest is tracked for encumbrance. HERE is the clarification, second to the last question on the combat section.

Even if we used the FAQ, that answer doesn't say what you're saying is says. That particular response is saying that an Armor Jacket (8/6) doesn't stack with Armor Shirt (1/0) to become (9/6 armor); only the 8 counts, because it's higher. For encumbrance, *everything* counts (9/8 encumbrance). It specifically notes this: "Any worn armor counts for purposes of the armor encumbrance rules (p.161, SR4A)"

This comes back to a relevant point, because that section of the rules is the one about helmets/shields. It specifically says two things: 1) some armor is excepted from the general 'no stack' rule (helmets, shields, PPP); 2) *no* armor is excepted from encumbrance (helmet, shield, PPP). Neither of these are saying what's 'really armor', etc. with respect to our OP, and there's no special category in the game for these things.