Not to be a dick (which is to say I'm about to be a bit of a dick)... before I get started, I'm not asking about the attribute minimus/etc for a Player Character Free Spirit. I did a search on the board and found nearly all Free Spirit posts get in that argument, although I found this post very useful. I've figured out how I think that works, and I'm not really going to get into it here.

I also don't want to get into an argument about how effective or ineffective PC Free Spirits are compared to base characters or summoned spirits, nor am I after any discussions on Karma Generation vs Build Points.

I'd just like to get some answers to a few specific questions:

My Questions, which weren't so easy to track down are:

1. Does a PC Free Spirit in the Astral use Force for all it's Attributes?
2. Does a PC Free Spirit with the Natural Weapon power use Force for it's Value?
3. Can a PC Free Spirit with the Natural Weapon power use Unarmed Combat instead of Astral Combat while Astral?
4. If so on (3), is there any reason to take Astral Combat instead of Unarmed combat?
5. Is the Friendship Pact the only pact that allows a non-possession PC Free Spirit to collect Karma like any other PC?
6. Can I have more people in the Friendship Pact than I have Force? If so, do I lose Force when any of them die or just when my number of pact members drops below my Force? IE: Can I have a buffer?
7. Is there a way to end the Friendship Pact, short of death?

In case you are wondering, I'm working on a Pink Mowhawk Free Spirit of Fire with a black magic (devil/demon) tradition. He's a bit of a pyro, and not really a spellcaster. By no means an optimal build (he's not even possession based) but I think he'd be fun.

EDIT: Left out Questions on Pacts/Karma

Take the rules for normal spirits, piss on them, and then pretend like they never existed. That's what the people who came up with the PC version of Free Spirits did. That said, I'll answer the ones that I'm pretty sure about.

1. No. They use their Mentral Attributes which, inexplicably, are not equal to Force (even though the wording actually says they are since their minimum/maximum ratings are equal to Force, only to have that contradicted later in the text).
2. No. They left out the entry for what their Natural Weapon damage should be, so you pretty much have to make it up. I'd look at Beast Spirits for a starting point.
3. No. They use the Exotic Weapon skill instead of Unarmed Skill. Otherwise they are treated just like any other Dual Nature critter while materialized, and use Astral Combat while astral.

As a Fire Spirit, don't waste points on Natural Weapon. Get something cooler like Energy Aura or Engulf, or just the spells that mimic those powers at the very least.

The 'learn a metamagic from a mentor' optional rule mentions that if a spirit teaches a metamagic, then the karma cost is paid directly to a spirit. All spirits are able to perform rituals to transfer karma to the(1 hr/point).

So theoretically, its possible for a spirit to have useful services (knowledges, skills, contacts, power pacts, metamagics) to offer that they charge for in life force/karma.

As a GM, I would let a PC free spirit barter services like that for karma - perhaps to clients or talismongers that they have taken as a group contact using the RC rules. This karma just so coincidentally happens to be about what the other players get, instead of encouraging the free spirit PC to try to break the system (15 karma injections for a day's work, endowment to get access to karma drain, or other silly, silly shenanigans). In the end, its a much better solution to make a free spirit character stay even in progression with the party, instead of working around their limitation constantly, letting them either flag behind or exceed the party.
Remember: a friendship pact lets a spirit accrue karma normally. Nothing prevents them from ALSO trying to convince people to give them karma in exchange for things.

So I haven't seen the other debates but I assume it revolves around how PC Free Spirits use their Force as their attribute maximum where critter/summoned free spirits use their Force as their base attribute?

1. Your attribute is your attribute - same on astral as it is on physical (give or take that physical attributes don't apply)
2. Spirit of Beasts have Natural Weapon (DV = Force Physical damage, AP 0)... since it's not detailed elsewhere I'd go with that.
3. See next post
4. See next post
5. Only one I've seen - key being "like any other PC"...other pacts let the PC's trade you unspent Karma in exchange for "spirit love".
6. I don't see why not.. I think they intended the pact to be with the other players characters and not just random NPC's but they didn't specify it that way so I guess it's possible. Would be a good mission hook when you have to race to save a bus load of your NPC pact members (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Would also suck if one of your NPC pact members is in a fatal car accident while you're in the middle of a mission.
7. QUOTE
   Ending a spirit pact without the death of one or both of the participants is usually not possible and is the stuff of epic magic and plot devices.

No - Exotic is only used for ranged natural weapons on the physical (poison loogie)... NW lets dual natured use unarmed (with that weapon) against astral opponents.
Though now that I read it again I believe that only refers to attacking an astral creature from the physical - not pure astral to astral fighting



Yea - really not worth it for a fire spirit...

I think the Dream Pact lets you earn Karma by possessing a sleeping person - I think this is available even to a non-possession PC Free Spirit...

"Dream Pact: The spirit gains control of the character’s body while the character is asleep, always possessing the character the moment he closes his eyes. The character’s body never sleeps, though he is rested when he awakes. The spirit gains Karma during the time it controls the character as if it were the character."

A free spirit can take any power that spirits of it's tradition can take, so if you are gaining access to natural weapon from beast spirits, you'd use the power as a beast spirit would use it. I'm fairly certain natural weapon wouldn't work in astral as it's a physical power.

I'm fairly certain that is you are attacking an astral form, or are astral yourself, you must use the astral combat skill, and if you are attacking a physical target, or are physical yourself, you must use unarmed combat(even with a natural weapon). If you are dual-natured, and attacking a dual-natured being you can use either skill, but in any other circumstance what skill you use it predetermined. I personally think mana/stunbolt is a better option for astral combat in most cases, but since you'll always have an astral presence I'd think you'd want a method of fighting astral forms that doesn't risk drain.

Most of this has been answered, but a lot of the answers about astral combat are flat-out wrong.

3. You cannot use Natural Weapon AT ALL while Astral. It is a Physical power. Physical powers cannot be used on the astral.

Also, there's some major confusion about how astral/dual natured combat works. There are 9 cases: you can be physical, dual-natured, or astral, and your opponent can be physical, dual-natured, or astral.

You use Astral Combat while you are Astral, always, no choice involved. You can't hurt single-natured physical opponents.

If you are Physical, you always use regular combat skills and can't hurt Astral people.

If you are dual-natured, and fighting a physical or dual-natured enemy, you use regular combat skills.

If you are dual-natured and fighting an astral enemy, by default you use Astral Combat. However, some abilities (all of which explicitly say so), such as Natural Weapon, let you use Unarmed Combat in this (and only this) instance instead.

Thank you UmaroVI, your Astral Combat/Unarmed/Dual Natured details help me out a lot.

I am still a little unclear on some things, and I will admit right now that I normally play hackers, riggers, and similar so the magic rules, and especially the Astral stuff, are things I'm only passingly familiar with. Sorry if I'm treading old arguments back up to the surface.

1) So here is what is confusing me about Astral Attributes:
Runner's Haven says "For materialized spirits, the Physical attributes apply to its materialized form." I think this line is just contrasting this fact with possession spirits, who apply their physical scores to those of their host. Now I also thought only Astrally Projected characters used mental instead of physical. SR4A page 193: "Astrally projecting characters use their Mental attributes in place of Physical ones." However, a Free Spirit is not Astrally projected (the reverse if anything) but actually has an Astral Form naturally. The Astral Form power on page 293 makes no mention of Astral Forms using different abilities. Conjured Spirits (p 302) says "On the astral plane, spirits use Force for all attributes" but have variant ability scores when Materialized... but of course PC Free Spirits don't play by the same rules, and "normal" spirits mental scores are all equal to force anyway.

6) Ok, so there is no reason I can't include extra people in the Friendship Pact, but they aren't really a buffer because I take a hit to my Force each time any of them die. "Every time a pact member dies" is the wording used. Additionally, pacts can't be ended without my Free Spirit or the pacted mortal's death (which triggers the force loss, as noted.) So... by having my immortal Free Spirit enter into a Friendship Pact with mortals, I'm tying my life force to things that WILL DIE, if from old age if not sooner. When they die, I don't just get knocked back to the Astral, I loose Force till I fade away. I can collect Karma to raise my Force again when my pact-mates die, but when ever Force is increased, You have to add pact mates within 24 hours.
Wow, that's crappy. Once a Friendship pact is entered into, that spirit becomes completely and hopelessly tied to mortals, yet short of the Dream pact, there is no other way to collect karma "normally."

8) New Question: Materialization
My Free Spirit is an astral native. When he Materializes, he is forming a physical body which is effectively dual natured. He is never cut off from the Astral. He's dong the reverse of Astral Projecting... he's physically projecting, which the game calls Materializing.
Assuming he really does use Mental instead of Physical attributes on the Astral, do I still use Body to determine his Condition Monitor boxes? He's Astral, does that mean the Astral rules kick in and I'm using Willpower?

9) New Question: Immunity to Natural Weapons + Armor
What happens if my Materialized Realistic Form Free Spirit puts on armor? What happens with the armor values? Do I take penalties from doubling up on armor?

EDIT: Added question about armor.

You use his materialized body attribute.

Which, surprise surprise, is his normal body attribute (not willpower).

Your mistake started here:



Just because it has a similar effect in your mind doesn't mean it uses the same rules.

They're not 'reverse astral projecting.' They don't use the rules for astral projection in any way, shape, or form while materialized. They use the rules for physical dual-natured critters in every single way unless specifically stated otherwise.

No, he's metaplanar native, and in the gaiasphere he is an astral form with the materialization power.



Thats the nature of spirit pacts in general, the spirit trades safety and freedom for a resource they cannot get(typically karma), the friendship pact is a good deal, but don't keep more friends than you need.



You only get penalties for worn armor unless otherwise stated, but worn armor would not stack with your natural hardened armor, so there is little benefit to wearing armor unless it's milspec or a type that specifically stacks with all types of armor(though some GM's may call BS on PPP or FFBA).

I'm actually thinking about wearing armor for when some Adept tries to punch me or hit me with a magic weapon. The Hardened armor of Immunity to Natural Weapons is nice, but it vanishes vs some attackers.
Also, I can get a coat with some fire and chemical resistance. Fire so I don't burn it with my aura (and keep things in the pockets that aren't so fire proof), and chemical so I don't feel the stinging touch of rain often. (Water Allergy as I'm a Fire Spirit).

Why wouldn't your worn armor stack with your Immunity to Normal Weapons *power*? I hate spirits as much as the next guy, but I'd rather just admit I'm screwing them on purpose.

Element Aura does not harm anything that's not either attacking you, or attacked by you.
Unless you get in enough of a tangle with the coat (foreign object, you know. They're strange. Did you pick up Terran Clothes as a Street or Interest Knowledge? Didn't think so. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) ) to be considered grappling with it, it'll be fine.

After all, Ghost Rider's leather jacket never even singed either.

It should. Just like a Troll's Dermal Deposits do.

Stacking is the wrong word. That implies it boosts the immunity effect, which it doesn't. Only the armor effect "stacks."

I don't think it implies that, but certainly it doesn't boost the immunity effect. That's right: you have F*2 'hardened effect', and F*2 armor effect. If you stack 10/10 armor, the armor effects stack.

This is all subject to existing problems with armor interactions with the abstraction level (e.g., why is hardening first if it's a feature of the 'body', why do armor mods affect layers 'outside' of them, etc.). In this case, a water spirit wearing fireproofing would have his immunity (hardened effect part) bypassed by a fire attack, but would the 'next layer' of fireproofed armor protect the spirit's 'body' from the fire allergy/weakness? I think there's a RAW answer, but not a 'logical' answer.

Let me see if I have this right with a few scenarios...

My Free Spirit is materialized and wearing fancy armor.

1) Some security guard tries to shoot him. I use my Force*2 Hardened armor. My worn armor is less than my Force*2 so it isn't in play.

2) A crazy ganger attempts to use a flame thrower on my Free Spirit. The fire isn't magical, but it is half impact. If my Force (not times 2 because it's halved) is less than the fire resistance on my armor (which isn't halved because this is what it's intended to do), then I use my armor, otherwise the Immunity effect is more valid.

3) A justifiably angry Adept attempts to punch me with his magic fists. This bypass my Force*2, but still deals with my armor.


Do I have the right of it?

It depends on what he shoots; if it beats the hardened armor aspect of the Immunity to Normal Weapons power, then he resists the damage as normal using his full armor rating.

Again, you check the hardened protection first, subject to AP (-half, here), and if it fails, use the full normal armor rating (subject to AP).

Non-normal weapons ignore the ItNW power entirely, in either aspect. How convenient that your spirit materializes in the form of a metahuman. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No, your worn armor is in play. It's simply not "hardened." You still get the bonus dice and it still mitigates Physical damage to Stun damage as normal which "stacks" with the armor you get from Immunity. The attack just isn't completely ignored if it's above your Immunity rating and less than your total Ballistic Armor rating.


This is where I disagree with a lot of people. It doesn't have to be "magical" to be elemental. Fire works just fine at getting past Immunity to Normal Weapons, as does (in my opinion) tasers, rocksalt shells, and other similar "natural" elemental attacks. The complication is when the game calls Metal and Wood elements, but most people just ignore those anyway. Me, I have no problem. Spirits are too fucking powerful in the game, and if a player wants to (usually) go old school to take one out by taking a bat to it, I'm all for it.


Basically, yes. But don't call it "my Force*2" call it what it is: Immunity.

And lets not forget "why do multiple layers of armor only stack ratings for certain armors?" Yes, I realize it was initially done for balance (which FFBA really breaks IMO) but if you know people are going to want to wear a Lined Coat or Armored Jacket over just about everything why not drop their armor values and let it stack instead of making an arbitrary "highest value" rule?

How about a lead (metal) pipe? Or a lead (metal) bullet? Are those elemental, too?

Did you not read my last post at all? Hint: "The complication is when the game calls Metal and Wood elements, but most people just ignore those anyway."

But yes, for me, I'm okay with a metal pipe. Less so with standard bullets because they've been "too" manufactured. Sure, so has a pipe, but it's more "natural" in my eyes. It's magic. It doesn't have to make perfect sense.

Not quite. If the flamethrower does more damage than your Force, you actually take the damage, and you resist it with the Hardened Armor (halved) plus the armor (halved) plus the Fire Resistance (also halved).

Similarly, if you get shot for more than your ITNW threshold, your damage resistance roll counts both ITNW and Worn Armor.