Not to be a dick (which is to say I'm about to be a bit of a dick)... before I get started, I'm not asking about the attribute minimus/etc for a Player Character Free Spirit. I did a search on the board and found nearly all Free Spirit posts get in that argument, although I found this post very useful. I've figured out how I think that works, and I'm not really going to get into it here.

I also don't want to get into an argument about how effective or ineffective PC Free Spirits are compared to base characters or summoned spirits, nor am I after any discussions on Karma Generation vs Build Points.

I'd just like to get some answers to a few specific questions:

My Questions, which weren't so easy to track down are:

1. Does a PC Free Spirit in the Astral use Force for all it's Attributes?
2. Does a PC Free Spirit with the Natural Weapon power use Force for it's Value?
3. Can a PC Free Spirit with the Natural Weapon power use Unarmed Combat instead of Astral Combat while Astral?
4. If so on (3), is there any reason to take Astral Combat instead of Unarmed combat?
5. Is the Friendship Pact the only pact that allows a non-possession PC Free Spirit to collect Karma like any other PC?
6. Can I have more people in the Friendship Pact than I have Force? If so, do I lose Force when any of them die or just when my number of pact members drops below my Force? IE: Can I have a buffer?
7. Is there a way to end the Friendship Pact, short of death?

In case you are wondering, I'm working on a Pink Mowhawk Free Spirit of Fire with a black magic (devil/demon) tradition. He's a bit of a pyro, and not really a spellcaster. By no means an optimal build (he's not even possession based) but I think he'd be fun.

EDIT: Left out Questions on Pacts/Karma

Take the rules for normal spirits, piss on them, and then pretend like they never existed. That's what the people who came up with the PC version of Free Spirits did. That said, I'll answer the ones that I'm pretty sure about.

1. No. They use their Mentral Attributes which, inexplicably, are not equal to Force (even though the wording actually says they are since their minimum/maximum ratings are equal to Force, only to have that contradicted later in the text).
2. No. They left out the entry for what their Natural Weapon damage should be, so you pretty much have to make it up. I'd look at Beast Spirits for a starting point.
3. No. They use the Exotic Weapon skill instead of Unarmed Skill. Otherwise they are treated just like any other Dual Nature critter while materialized, and use Astral Combat while astral.

As a Fire Spirit, don't waste points on Natural Weapon. Get something cooler like Energy Aura or Engulf, or just the spells that mimic those powers at the very least.

The 'learn a metamagic from a mentor' optional rule mentions that if a spirit teaches a metamagic, then the karma cost is paid directly to a spirit. All spirits are able to perform rituals to transfer karma to the(1 hr/point).

So theoretically, its possible for a spirit to have useful services (knowledges, skills, contacts, power pacts, metamagics) to offer that they charge for in life force/karma.

As a GM, I would let a PC free spirit barter services like that for karma - perhaps to clients or talismongers that they have taken as a group contact using the RC rules. This karma just so coincidentally happens to be about what the other players get, instead of encouraging the free spirit PC to try to break the system (15 karma injections for a day's work, endowment to get access to karma drain, or other silly, silly shenanigans). In the end, its a much better solution to make a free spirit character stay even in progression with the party, instead of working around their limitation constantly, letting them either flag behind or exceed the party.
Remember: a friendship pact lets a spirit accrue karma normally. Nothing prevents them from ALSO trying to convince people to give them karma in exchange for things.

So I haven't seen the other debates but I assume it revolves around how PC Free Spirits use their Force as their attribute maximum where critter/summoned free spirits use their Force as their base attribute?

1. Your attribute is your attribute - same on astral as it is on physical (give or take that physical attributes don't apply)
2. Spirit of Beasts have Natural Weapon (DV = Force Physical damage, AP 0)... since it's not detailed elsewhere I'd go with that.
3. See next post
4. See next post
5. Only one I've seen - key being "like any other PC"...other pacts let the PC's trade you unspent Karma in exchange for "spirit love".
6. I don't see why not.. I think they intended the pact to be with the other players characters and not just random NPC's but they didn't specify it that way so I guess it's possible. Would be a good mission hook when you have to race to save a bus load of your NPC pact members Would also suck if one of your NPC pact members is in a fatal car accident while you're in the middle of a mission.
7. QUOTE
   Ending a spirit pact without the death of one or both of the participants is usually not possible and is the stuff of epic magic and plot devices.

No - Exotic is only used for ranged natural weapons on the physical (poison loogie)... NW lets dual natured use unarmed (with that weapon) against astral opponents.
Though now that I read it again I believe that only refers to attacking an astral creature from the physical - not pure astral to astral fighting



Yea - really not worth it for a fire spirit...

I think the Dream Pact lets you earn Karma by possessing a sleeping person - I think this is available even to a non-possession PC Free Spirit...

"Dream Pact: The spirit gains control of the character’s body while the character is asleep, always possessing the character the moment he closes his eyes. The character’s body never sleeps, though he is rested when he awakes. The spirit gains Karma during the time it controls the character as if it were the character."

A free spirit can take any power that spirits of it's tradition can take, so if you are gaining access to natural weapon from beast spirits, you'd use the power as a beast spirit would use it. I'm fairly certain natural weapon wouldn't work in astral as it's a physical power.

I'm fairly certain that is you are attacking an astral form, or are astral yourself, you must use the astral combat skill, and if you are attacking a physical target, or are physical yourself, you must use unarmed combat(even with a natural weapon). If you are dual-natured, and attacking a dual-natured being you can use either skill, but in any other circumstance what skill you use it predetermined. I personally think mana/stunbolt is a better option for astral combat in most cases, but since you'll always have an astral presence I'd think you'd want a method of fighting astral forms that doesn't risk drain.

Most of this has been answered, but a lot of the answers about astral combat are flat-out wrong.

3. You cannot use Natural Weapon AT ALL while Astral. It is a Physical power. Physical powers cannot be used on the astral.

Also, there's some major confusion about how astral/dual natured combat works. There are 9 cases: you can be physical, dual-natured, or astral, and your opponent can be physical, dual-natured, or astral.

You use Astral Combat while you are Astral, always, no choice involved. You can't hurt single-natured physical opponents.

If you are Physical, you always use regular combat skills and can't hurt Astral people.

If you are dual-natured, and fighting a physical or dual-natured enemy, you use regular combat skills.

If you are dual-natured and fighting an astral enemy, by default you use Astral Combat. However, some abilities (all of which explicitly say so), such as Natural Weapon, let you use Unarmed Combat in this (and only this) instance instead.

Thank you UmaroVI, your Astral Combat/Unarmed/Dual Natured details help me out a lot.

I am still a little unclear on some things, and I will admit right now that I normally play hackers, riggers, and similar so the magic rules, and especially the Astral stuff, are things I'm only passingly familiar with. Sorry if I'm treading old arguments back up to the surface.

1) So here is what is confusing me about Astral Attributes:
Runner's Haven says "For materialized spirits, the Physical attributes apply to its materialized form." I think this line is just contrasting this fact with possession spirits, who apply their physical scores to those of their host. Now I also thought only Astrally Projected characters used mental instead of physical. SR4A page 193: "Astrally projecting characters use their Mental attributes in place of Physical ones." However, a Free Spirit is not Astrally projected (the reverse if anything) but actually has an Astral Form naturally. The Astral Form power on page 293 makes no mention of Astral Forms using different abilities. Conjured Spirits (p 302) says "On the astral plane, spirits use Force for all attributes" but have variant ability scores when Materialized... but of course PC Free Spirits don't play by the same rules, and "normal" spirits mental scores are all equal to force anyway.

6) Ok, so there is no reason I can't include extra people in the Friendship Pact, but they aren't really a buffer because I take a hit to my Force each time any of them die. "Every time a pact member dies" is the wording used. Additionally, pacts can't be ended without my Free Spirit or the pacted mortal's death (which triggers the force loss, as noted.) So... by having my immortal Free Spirit enter into a Friendship Pact with mortals, I'm tying my life force to things that WILL DIE, if from old age if not sooner. When they die, I don't just get knocked back to the Astral, I loose Force till I fade away. I can collect Karma to raise my Force again when my pact-mates die, but when ever Force is increased, You have to add pact mates within 24 hours.
Wow, that's crappy. Once a Friendship pact is entered into, that spirit becomes completely and hopelessly tied to mortals, yet short of the Dream pact, there is no other way to collect karma "normally."

8) New Question: Materialization
My Free Spirit is an astral native. When he Materializes, he is forming a physical body which is effectively dual natured. He is never cut off from the Astral. He's dong the reverse of Astral Projecting... he's physically projecting, which the game calls Materializing.
Assuming he really does use Mental instead of Physical attributes on the Astral, do I still use Body to determine his Condition Monitor boxes? He's Astral, does that mean the Astral rules kick in and I'm using Willpower?

9) New Question: Immunity to Natural Weapons + Armor
What happens if my Materialized Realistic Form Free Spirit puts on armor? What happens with the armor values? Do I take penalties from doubling up on armor?

EDIT: Added question about armor.

You use his materialized body attribute.

Which, surprise surprise, is his normal body attribute (not willpower).

Your mistake started here:



Just because it has a similar effect in your mind doesn't mean it uses the same rules.

They're not 'reverse astral projecting.' They don't use the rules for astral projection in any way, shape, or form while materialized. They use the rules for physical dual-natured critters in every single way unless specifically stated otherwise.

No, he's metaplanar native, and in the gaiasphere he is an astral form with the materialization power.



Thats the nature of spirit pacts in general, the spirit trades safety and freedom for a resource they cannot get(typically karma), the friendship pact is a good deal, but don't keep more friends than you need.



You only get penalties for worn armor unless otherwise stated, but worn armor would not stack with your natural hardened armor, so there is little benefit to wearing armor unless it's milspec or a type that specifically stacks with all types of armor(though some GM's may call BS on PPP or FFBA).

I'm actually thinking about wearing armor for when some Adept tries to punch me or hit me with a magic weapon. The Hardened armor of Immunity to Natural Weapons is nice, but it vanishes vs some attackers.
Also, I can get a coat with some fire and chemical resistance. Fire so I don't burn it with my aura (and keep things in the pockets that aren't so fire proof), and chemical so I don't feel the stinging touch of rain often. (Water Allergy as I'm a Fire Spirit).

Why wouldn't your worn armor stack with your Immunity to Normal Weapons *power*? I hate spirits as much as the next guy, but I'd rather just admit I'm screwing them on purpose.

Element Aura does not harm anything that's not either attacking you, or attacked by you.
Unless you get in enough of a tangle with the coat (foreign object, you know. They're strange. Did you pick up Terran Clothes as a Street or Interest Knowledge? Didn't think so. ) to be considered grappling with it, it'll be fine.

After all, Ghost Rider's leather jacket never even singed either.

It should. Just like a Troll's Dermal Deposits do.

Stacking is the wrong word. That implies it boosts the immunity effect, which it doesn't. Only the armor effect "stacks."

I don't think it implies that, but certainly it doesn't boost the immunity effect. That's right: you have F*2 'hardened effect', and F*2 armor effect. If you stack 10/10 armor, the armor effects stack.

This is all subject to existing problems with armor interactions with the abstraction level (e.g., why is hardening first if it's a feature of the 'body', why do armor mods affect layers 'outside' of them, etc.). In this case, a water spirit wearing fireproofing would have his immunity (hardened effect part) bypassed by a fire attack, but would the 'next layer' of fireproofed armor protect the spirit's 'body' from the fire allergy/weakness? I think there's a RAW answer, but not a 'logical' answer.

Let me see if I have this right with a few scenarios...

My Free Spirit is materialized and wearing fancy armor.

1) Some security guard tries to shoot him. I use my Force*2 Hardened armor. My worn armor is less than my Force*2 so it isn't in play.

2) A crazy ganger attempts to use a flame thrower on my Free Spirit. The fire isn't magical, but it is half impact. If my Force (not times 2 because it's halved) is less than the fire resistance on my armor (which isn't halved because this is what it's intended to do), then I use my armor, otherwise the Immunity effect is more valid.

3) A justifiably angry Adept attempts to punch me with his magic fists. This bypass my Force*2, but still deals with my armor.


Do I have the right of it?

It depends on what he shoots; if it beats the hardened armor aspect of the Immunity to Normal Weapons power, then he resists the damage as normal using his full armor rating.

Again, you check the hardened protection first, subject to AP (-half, here), and if it fails, use the full normal armor rating (subject to AP).

Non-normal weapons ignore the ItNW power entirely, in either aspect. How convenient that your spirit materializes in the form of a metahuman.

No, your worn armor is in play. It's simply not "hardened." You still get the bonus dice and it still mitigates Physical damage to Stun damage as normal which "stacks" with the armor you get from Immunity. The attack just isn't completely ignored if it's above your Immunity rating and less than your total Ballistic Armor rating.


This is where I disagree with a lot of people. It doesn't have to be "magical" to be elemental. Fire works just fine at getting past Immunity to Normal Weapons, as does (in my opinion) tasers, rocksalt shells, and other similar "natural" elemental attacks. The complication is when the game calls Metal and Wood elements, but most people just ignore those anyway. Me, I have no problem. Spirits are too fucking powerful in the game, and if a player wants to (usually) go old school to take one out by taking a bat to it, I'm all for it.


Basically, yes. But don't call it "my Force*2" call it what it is: Immunity.

And lets not forget "why do multiple layers of armor only stack ratings for certain armors?" Yes, I realize it was initially done for balance (which FFBA really breaks IMO) but if you know people are going to want to wear a Lined Coat or Armored Jacket over just about everything why not drop their armor values and let it stack instead of making an arbitrary "highest value" rule?

How about a lead (metal) pipe? Or a lead (metal) bullet? Are those elemental, too?

Did you not read my last post at all? Hint: "The complication is when the game calls Metal and Wood elements, but most people just ignore those anyway."

But yes, for me, I'm okay with a metal pipe. Less so with standard bullets because they've been "too" manufactured. Sure, so has a pipe, but it's more "natural" in my eyes. It's magic. It doesn't have to make perfect sense.

Not quite. If the flamethrower does more damage than your Force, you actually take the damage, and you resist it with the Hardened Armor (halved) plus the armor (halved) plus the Fire Resistance (also halved).

Similarly, if you get shot for more than your ITNW threshold, your damage resistance roll counts both ITNW and Worn Armor.

At one in the morning I didn't make it clear I was sort of supporting this point, rather than contradicting it.


Hmmm... I'm not so sure a lead pipe has gone through less manufacturing than a lead bullet. Now, a hunk of unprocessed rock would be less so. Still, then are we to go back to the stone age to find the solution to ItNW? Make stone axes to hit them?

The power doesn't even say 'elements', it says: "(weapon foci, spells, adept or critter powers)". If it's not a weapon foci, a spell, or a paranormal power, then no.

Even if it did say 'elements', it's that kind of slippery slope that leads most people to conclude that *no* 'elements' are 'non-normal weapons'. What's more 'manufactured' than a industrial-chemical flamethrower, anyway? That entire area of logic is too messy… and, again, irrelevant.

Need I remind you of the huge difference between a common spruce tabletop and elemental wood telesma?

Need I remind you that Elemental Wood does not exist in Shadowrun?

In any campaign I run, I go with this. If the weapon has some sort of AP modifier, I apply that to the ItNW calculation, though. Hey, Yerameyahu. We agree. With hardly any qualifier. Holy shit.

Someone should tell that to the Wuxing Tradition, then. Ditto to the people who wrote the rules for refining and radicals. Oh, and of course, those pesky Plant Spirits.

Apparently people needed reminding.

No where does the Wuxing Tradiution refer to either Elemental Elements or True Elements.
No where does the section on Enchanting talk about Elemental Elements or True Elements. (Though I admittedly only scanned quickly)
No where in the Tables does it ever refer to Elemental Elements or True Elements.
AS for teh Plant Spirit. Itr is no more an Elemental Element than a FIre SPirit is. Nor aretehy True Elements, or a piece thereof.

As for Reagents and Radicals; These are what are listed:
Radical REAGENTS
Refined REAGENTS
Raw REAGENTS
Natural Refined REAGENTS
and Natural Radical REAGENTS.

A Reagent does not equal either a True Element nor an Elemental Element. They are NOT the same thing.
Should you choose to equate them as the same thing, then that is on you, and is a House Rule.

So, what are you trying to actually say?

That you're wrong.


Street Magic, p. 43: "Qi has five states of being, represented by the five Chinese elements of Fire, Earth, Wood, Water, and Metal, and it is also influenced by the two poles of passivity and activity, yin and yang."


And you'd be wrong again. It's simply another name for them. (Street Magic, p. 40: "Spirits are seen as incorporeal forces and fae, spiritual embodiments of the true elements of nature.")

I have no idea what you're going on with "true elements," however, as the only reference to such a term is in the quote above, and "elemental element' is even more ridiculous a term. But that's not surprising since nothing else you're saying here makes any sense, either.

Element does not equate to ELEMENTAL or TRUE ELEMENT. AND YOU KNOW IT.

Please get off your high horse and actually participate in this conversation. Thew original Quote That I referenced, and you intruded upon, was a definition of Elemental Wood Telesma. THIS DOES NOT EXIST IN SHADOWRUN. Look it up, you won't find it anywhere in the Shadowrun books. If you choose to include the Earthdawn crap, then yes, you can [possibly] equate them. Fortunately, Earthdawn crap is no longer a part of Shadowrun, regardless of what may or may not be out there from previous editions.

Again. An Element does not equate to Elemental.

See:



And now compare to:



How, exactly are these the same thing now?

You really crack me up Doc... You really, really do.
But no worries...

Nevermind. It's pointless.

Wow. This thread went a bit off rails. I'm sorry inadvertently setup an argument. I had used the Flame Thrower example because I thought it would show a reasonably complicated case. I guess I was more right than I knew.

Back to Free Spirit rules....


So my understanding of the Immunity to Weapons power was wrong. I generally get to use both double my force (hardened) and my worn armor against attacks unless they bypass my Immunity, which just leaves me with the worn armor, which of course follows normal armor rules.

Ok, so I'm making progress here. My Free Spirit character will be reasonably tough to hurt, unless you're using mystical options, in which case he's about as protected as any spellcaster is, armor wise. He's got some nifty flight, and a flaming aura. He'll have decent if not fantastic Sorcery and Close Combat. I'll pickup a decent Astral Combat and some Assenssing. I suppose I should round him out with some Social skill group, dodge, and perception.

If I make sure he can Counterspell, that'll help some. If he's fighting adepts, well he's got troubles, but at least they'll have to reach him (he can fly or go astral) and deal with his flaming aura, which will be annoying.

So my big weakness is going to be Astral attackers. If I get in over my head, I guess I can always flee to my home Metal Mana Plane right? Just hope my team-mates remember to scoop up my jacket after I poof out of existence on the physical.

Also, for what ever reason (let's call it a side effect of being materialized instead of actually physical) I can't read digital screens. No TV, vision enhancing goggles, and no AR. I'm guessing this issue won't extend to Electronic Paper though... so I can still use a commlink, via buttons and voice interface, and use the digital paper as a display. Not exactly grounds for a hacker, but it makes checking an account balance or reading e-mail viable.

Any other tricks or concerns I should look into?

I'm still considering making him a non-spellcaster and focusing more on Close Combat, Assensing, astral combat, and counter spelling as his primary deals. I could also see him making a living as a guy that puts up wards. part of this is my general lack of comfort with the magic rules I must admit. I do have to admit, given the quasi-bruiser I'm sort of making I'm tempted by spells to boost Strength, Agility, and Body.

Oh man, he's from the Plane of Metal? Rock on!

It's because your 'physical' vision is astral vision; you're a dual-natured astral native, like all materialized spirits. There's no reason you should be able to read digital paper, or even *real* paper, actually.

If you're not comfortable with magic, Free Spirit PC is just about the worst possible choice. :o Being a Magician is what they *are*, more or less, but you can choose to be a crappy one.

I know I'm really playing against type and rules here, but I'm really interested in trying to make Fire Spirit that's rather nasty in melee combat, and that otherwise provides Astral Overwatch, Counterspelling, and of course the Teleporting trick.

Tell me if I'm missing something here:

Unarmed combat boosts for Spirits:

• Natrual Weapons isn't well defined, but let's call it Force value bonus on damage.
• Elemental Aura (Fire) gives me another +4 damage, and makes all the damage fire damage which is resisted by half impact. As an extra bonus, enemies attacking me take Force in fire damage as well.
• Engulf (fire) lets me trap a foe struck in melee and wrap him in flames.

So in theory, with a max Force value of 6 and base strength 2, I can be hitting targets for something like 11 Fire (half impact), then wrap them in fire so they are trapped taking that damage over and over until they escape, die, or I stop sustaining the power... and I can just walk fly away while it happens?

I'm starting to think a Free Fire Spirit PC could make an Bruiser.

I still say Engulf is *properly* a power that involves the spirit wrapping the target in itself and 'holding' it. No walking away, etc. I guess it depends on what fluff you want, and how interested you are in 'using' the rules.

Street magic p100 makes it explicitly, unambiguously, and painstakingly clear that you are wrong about that.

Actually I just noticed the post explaining that Elemental Aura is always active, so if you're on the physical, your on fire. It kind of throws off my whole Fire Spirit concept, as I wanted him to pass for a SURGE'd or augmented ork on the street... and not burn places down by just being there.

I'm now re-adjusting my thoughts in a new direction. I picked over the PC Free Spirit power list a bit and decided an Aura Masking, Realistic Form, Accident, & Influence build could make for a fun trickster concept.

Put a real big focus on counterspelling, & assensing. Keep Astral Combat decent. Make him completely uninterested in physical goods. He works for Karma. Might try and swing having him not under the friendship pact but instead takes karma bids to go on missions in lue of cash (or collecting standard karma from the GM.) Get him some other pact instead of friendship as well. It's a character type that could make the best use of that manaplanes short cut and similar whacky abilities.

Do Free Spirits use half their Force in Astral Combat or do they use half Charisma?

Umaro, I'm saying Street Magic is wrong. I thought that was clear (if not "explicitly, unambiguously, and painstakingly" so). Hehe.

Element Aura will not burn the place down unles you're attacking the place, or the place is attacking you.

Also, just because you were a fire spirit, that doesn't mean you are a fire spirit after you go free. You likely retain some of your old abilities, but you're not obligated to have them all if you don't want them as a Free Spirit player character.

actually, not sure if people have realized this, but a free spirit pc's power selection is based on their tradition. The specific natural weapon any given spirit has access to is based on those spirit types within that tradition.

I am unsure if beast spirits have a better built in natural weapon than, say, guardian types, or if any other types have it, but yeah. That's how it works.


Regarding Always On Powers: I tend to assume, and I think my game table would agree, spirits and critters generally have control over their own powers and can choose to use them or not.
The biggest mechanical implication of Always On powers, that I'm surprised people haven't picked up on, is that they do NOT need to be Sustained. Critter power sustaining is special, in that it there is an upper limit to how many may be 'on' at any given time. Always on powers have no such limitation.


This is also pretty much completely shot down by Invoking. Great Form spirits (if they rolled high enough) can just kind of look at people and make various elemental effects spring out of nowhere and hold someone down. Engulf explicity becomes LOS:Area, or at least the option to use it as such, which makes it really, really, really good. Especially with the no friendly fire clause.

I know. I'm talking about my opinion of what it should be, which is why I said "*properly*". And Great Forms are Great Forms, their powers should be expected to be different (better).