Realistic Form and Powers that are always on, Dead giveaway? Options

[Dakka Dakka]

The description of Realistic Form mentions an example of a Fire Elemental that "might appear as a column of angry flames, but might also be able to appear as a beautiful woman." (Street Magic p. 102). Now all Spirits of Fire have the Power of Energy Aura (SR4A p. 303. This Power is always on (SR4A p. 294).
Wouldn't being wrapped in flames without burning and dying, defeat the purpose of the disguise?

[Hound]

I was under the impression that any "always on" power could be turned off at will.

Edit: herp derp, disregard this.... just noticed he quoted a page that probably proves me wrong.

Edit 2: okay actually, after reading that, it doesn't specifically state that the powers cannot be turned off. Under the part where it's talking about power durations in general is says that powers with a duration of Always are "always in effect (have an Action of Automatic.)" The part about the action being automatic would suggest to me that the power does need to be activated (and thus can be deactivated) the only difference is that it doesn't even cost a Free Action, it just happens whenever you want it to.

[Dakka Dakka]

When I wrote the first post I just assumed they were always on. Now I checked and the book proves me right:

Powers that are always in effect (have an Action of Automatic) have a duration of Always, as they are constantly “on.”

[toturi]

The description of Realistic Form mentions an example of a Fire Elemental that "might appear as a column of angry flames, but might also be able to appear as a beautiful woman." (Street Magic p. 102). Now all Spirits of Fire have the Power of Energy Aura (SR4A p. 303. This Power is always on (SR4A p. 294).
Wouldn't being wrapped in flames without burning and dying, defeat the purpose of the disguise?

While Energy Aura is always on, must said aura be visible? How exactly is the aura perceptible? Can the aura of flames not appear as a heat shimmer?

[Dakka Dakka]

While Energy Aura is always on, must said aura be visible? How exactly is the aura perceptible?

Read the description of the power and the one of the Spirit of Fire. In its case it is a fire aura. How is fire invisible?
Unless you use the aura exactly RAW (i.e without common sense) there is a whole other set of problems, a scorched floor for example.

[Ascalaphus]

But fire spirits usually don't get Realistic Form, do they?

[Dakka Dakka]

Not normally, but you could create an ally spirit with Energy Aura [Fire] and an alternate realistic form. I guess that is what the text refers to. The text would have made a lot more sense if they used any other spirit without Energy Aura.

[Halflife]

In its case it is a fire aura. How is fire invisible?

Burning Hydrogen is essentially invisible in the visible spectrum in spite of being able to melt your skin off. It can get dangerous if there is an ignited leak and no one notices.

[Dakka Dakka]

I doubt they meant that by writing:

A critter with Energy Aura continuously radiates an aura of damaging or negative energy, be it flame, intense cold, electricity, or something similar.

[Ascalaphus]

Burning Hydrogen is essentially invisible in the visible spectrum in spite of being able to melt your skin off. It can get dangerous if there is an ignited leak and no one notices.

In laboratory conditions, maybe. But as soon as the spirit starts scorching the floor, it's going to attract notice.

[Yerameyahu]

Realistic Form is pretty problematic anyway. Let's go with, 'yes, the disguise is defeated'.

[The Jopp]

Sounds to me like an editing mistake.

Anyone summoning elementals of any form would have to think twice of even summoning one of them for fear of the following.

-Accidentally setting the location on fire by just...radiating...
-Flooding, water damages, short-circuiting, electrocution
-etc...

Sounds a bit wrong.

[toturi]

Read the description of the power and the one of the Spirit of Fire. In its case it is a fire aura. How is fire invisible?
Unless you use the aura exactly RAW (i.e without common sense) there is a whole other set of problems, a scorched floor for example.

You may well be correct in the intepretation that the Energy Aura isn't invisible.

As for your other assertion,... given that your time on the forums, you should know my gaming style.

But Energy Aura may not necessarily defeat the purpose of the disguise. The Realistic Form could misdirect observers - perhaps the "woman" is a mage Endowed with Energy Aura or maybe the sighting may be misinterpreted as a female adept with Elemental Strike.

[pbangarth]

We handle it by saying that if the summoner wishes the Always On power to be turned off, it takes a service. In the case of an Ally spirit or a Free Spirit (PC or NPC) this is not much of a cost, but they are special and rare anyway.

[Dez384]

The Lady in the Red Dress looks Really Hot!


As to the concerns of summoning a fire elemental and setting the hay barn on fire by its mere presence:

Energy Aura
Type: P • Action: Auto • Range: Self • Duration: Always
A critter with Energy Aura continuously radiates an aura of damaging
or negative energy, be it flame, intense cold, electricity, or something
similar. Melee attacks made by the critter gain an additional +4
modifier to the Damage Value. Additionally, treat the damage as Cold,
Electricity, or Fire damage (see p. 164), as appropriate to the aura. Such
attacks are resisted with half Impact armor.
Any successful attack against a critter with Energy Aura means the
attacker also takes damage from the attack. The attacker must make a
Damage Resistance Test against a Damage Value equal to the critter’s
Magic. Impact armor protects with half its value.

Mechanically, the only time the aura comes into effect is when the spirit makes an attack or when it is attacked. Unless you count walking as a melee attack, it wouldn't leave scorched footprints. This would also allow a materialized spirit to manipulate objects without them being consumed by flames.

Realistically/Thematically, I would say that realistic form supersedes energy aura in that it isn't noticeable or it also changes to something appropriate/realistic looking.

[Dakka Dakka]

But Energy Aura may not necessarily defeat the purpose of the disguise. The Realistic Form could misdirect observers - perhaps the "woman" is a mage Endowed with Energy Aura or maybe the sighting may be misinterpreted as a female adept with Elemental Strike.

This however would severely limit the number of possible realistic forms.

@Dez384: Yes I agree, you should use only the RAW of the power, with the exception of the retaliation to ranged attacks. Having the power behave like the real element would create a whole lot of problems to the point where you cannot summon those spirits unless you want them to create havoc.

[Ascalaphus]

I don't see a problem with Elemental Aura and random spirit-summoning having their downsides, really. If you're concerned about not damaging the environment, get something civilized like a Spirit of Man; in a flammable environment, lay off the Fire Elementals.

It makes the choice of spirits for an occasion less of a no-brainer. It adds something to magical forensics besides assensing the astral signature. I like that.

[Dakka Dakka]

I don't see a problem with Elemental Aura and random spirit-summoning having their downsides, really. If you're concerned about not damaging the environment, get something civilized like a Spirit of Man; in a flammable environment, lay off the Fire Elementals.

If this was the intention of the rules, the authors should have mentioned it.

It makes the choice of spirits for an occasion less of a no-brainer. It adds something to magical forensics besides assensing the astral signature. I like that.

What do you get to analyze? Burnt stuff? The spirit still does not leave any trace but its signature. And once the spirit is dismissed this signature is worthless.

[Lanlaorn]

I don't see a problem with Elemental Aura and random spirit-summoning having their downsides, really. If you're concerned about not damaging the environment, get something civilized like a Spirit of Man; in a flammable environment, lay off the Fire Elementals.

It makes the choice of spirits for an occasion less of a no-brainer. It adds something to magical forensics besides assensing the astral signature. I like that.

Lol what? Spirit of Man is the no-brainer choice for almost every situation. Fire Elemental isn't even second choice for a hermetic if you're super optimizing, Air Elementals are strictly better. Don't even get started on the Street Magic spirits.

If you want to make varied spirit choices more viable you need to let the Fire Elemental be less limited, not more.

[Ascalaphus]

If this was the intention of the rules, the authors should have mentioned it.

There's lots of rules without designer commentary. I think the designers expected people to use common sense ("a fire aura is visible and can set a place on fire; a fire elemental is basically a sentient, mobile bonfire") rather than waste precious pages spelling out the obvious. Page count is a valuable resource, and few people want to read through a rulebook that spells out everything in enough detail to win a lawsuit.

What do you get to analyze? Burnt stuff? The spirit still does not leave any trace but its signature. And once the spirit is dismissed this signature is worthless.

It might clue you on to the killer being a fire spirit, for example. And it's not unlikely that there'll be some chemical traces - or telltale lack of traces - that can be used to distinguish between damage cause by a flamethrower and a fire spirit.

[Ascalaphus]

Lol what? Spirit of Man is the no-brainer choice for almost every situation. Fire Elemental isn't even second choice for a hermetic if you're super optimizing, Air Elementals are strictly better. Don't even get started on the Street Magic spirits.

If you want to make varied spirit choices more viable you need to let the Fire Elemental be less limited, not more.

You shouldn't want to use fire spirits to defend a wooden home.

I too think the elemental spirits are on the lame side, not sufficiently differentiated in what they're good for, and not as good as some of the new spirits. But rules-lawyering away the flavorful, common-sense disadvantages of elementals isn't the way to fix that.

[Dakka Dakka]

There's lots of rules without designer commentary. I think the designers expected people to use common sense ("a fire aura is visible and can set a place on fire; a fire elemental is basically a sentient, mobile bonfire") rather than waste precious pages spelling out the obvious.

Using common sense for magic or other things that have no real world equivalent can be very tricky. Sometimes the rules ecven say that magic behaves contrary to common sense (it is easier to ignite a rock with a spell than it is to ignite gasoline)

It might clue you on to the killer being a fire spirit, for example. And it's not unlikely that there'll be some chemical traces - or telltale lack of traces - that can be used to distinguish between damage cause by a flamethrower and a fire spirit.

That is true. Whether that knowledge helps the LEOs is a different story.

[DMiller]

The Lady in the Red Dress looks Really Hot!


As to the concerns of summoning a fire elemental and setting the hay barn on fire by its mere presence:


Mechanically, the only time the aura comes into effect is when the spirit makes an attack or when it is attacked. Unless you count walking as a melee attack, it wouldn't leave scorched footprints. This would also allow a materialized spirit to manipulate objects without them being consumed by flames.

Realistically/Thematically, I would say that realistic form supersedes energy aura in that it isn't noticeable or it also changes to something appropriate/realistic looking.

I agree with this. It's RAW and works well. The sprit version of the energy aura is not the same as the spell. The spell is the "always bathed in <element>" where the spirit power is only bathed in <element> when attacked or attacking. -easy-

-D

[Dakka Dakka]

I agree with this. It's RAW and works well. The sprit version of the energy aura is not the same as the spell. The spell is the "always bathed in <element>" where the spirit power is only bathed in <element> when attacked or attacking. -easy-

Both only have an explicit mechanical effect in melee (atack and defense) and both are continually on. Except for the DV they are the same.

[DMiller]

Both only have an explicit mechanical effect in melee (atack and defense) and both are continually on. Except for the DV they are the same.

Thanks. I didn't look up the spell before posting. So both of them would be safe standing in a big loose pile of paper (using fire aura) as long as you were't attacked (by the paper) or attacking it. -RAW-

I like it. It's magic after all and doesn't HAVE to make sense.

-D