The description of Realistic Form mentions an example of a Fire Elemental that "might appear as a column of angry flames, but might also be able to appear as a beautiful woman." (Street Magic p. 102). Now all Spirits of Fire have the Power of Energy Aura (SR4A p. 303. This Power is always on (SR4A p. 294).
Wouldn't being wrapped in flames without burning and dying, defeat the purpose of the disguise?

I was under the impression that any "always on" power could be turned off at will.

Edit: herp derp, disregard this.... just noticed he quoted a page that probably proves me wrong.

Edit 2: okay actually, after reading that, it doesn't specifically state that the powers cannot be turned off. Under the part where it's talking about power durations in general is says that powers with a duration of Always are "always in effect (have an Action of Automatic.)" The part about the action being automatic would suggest to me that the power does need to be activated (and thus can be deactivated) the only difference is that it doesn't even cost a Free Action, it just happens whenever you want it to.

When I wrote the first post I just assumed they were always on. Now I checked and the book proves me right:

While Energy Aura is always on, must said aura be visible? How exactly is the aura perceptible? Can the aura of flames not appear as a heat shimmer?

Read the description of the power and the one of the Spirit of Fire. In its case it is a fire aura. How is fire invisible?
Unless you use the aura exactly RAW (i.e without common sense) there is a whole other set of problems, a scorched floor for example.

But fire spirits usually don't get Realistic Form, do they?

Not normally, but you could create an ally spirit with Energy Aura [Fire] and an alternate realistic form. I guess that is what the text refers to. The text would have made a lot more sense if they used any other spirit without Energy Aura.

Burning Hydrogen is essentially invisible in the visible spectrum in spite of being able to melt your skin off. It can get dangerous if there is an ignited leak and no one notices.

I doubt they meant that by writing:

In laboratory conditions, maybe. But as soon as the spirit starts scorching the floor, it's going to attract notice.

Realistic Form is pretty problematic anyway. Let's go with, 'yes, the disguise is defeated'.

Sounds to me like an editing mistake.

Anyone summoning elementals of any form would have to think twice of even summoning one of them for fear of the following.

-Accidentally setting the location on fire by just...radiating...
-Flooding, water damages, short-circuiting, electrocution
-etc...

Sounds a bit wrong.

You may well be correct in the intepretation that the Energy Aura isn't invisible.

As for your other assertion,... given that your time on the forums, you should know my gaming style.

But Energy Aura may not necessarily defeat the purpose of the disguise. The Realistic Form could misdirect observers - perhaps the "woman" is a mage Endowed with Energy Aura or maybe the sighting may be misinterpreted as a female adept with Elemental Strike.

We handle it by saying that if the summoner wishes the Always On power to be turned off, it takes a service. In the case of an Ally spirit or a Free Spirit (PC or NPC) this is not much of a cost, but they are special and rare anyway.

The Lady in the Red Dress looks Really Hot!


As to the concerns of summoning a fire elemental and setting the hay barn on fire by its mere presence:


Mechanically, the only time the aura comes into effect is when the spirit makes an attack or when it is attacked. Unless you count walking as a melee attack, it wouldn't leave scorched footprints. This would also allow a materialized spirit to manipulate objects without them being consumed by flames.

Realistically/Thematically, I would say that realistic form supersedes energy aura in that it isn't noticeable or it also changes to something appropriate/realistic looking.

This however would severely limit the number of possible realistic forms.

@Dez384: Yes I agree, you should use only the RAW of the power, with the exception of the retaliation to ranged attacks. Having the power behave like the real element would create a whole lot of problems to the point where you cannot summon those spirits unless you want them to create havoc.

I don't see a problem with Elemental Aura and random spirit-summoning having their downsides, really. If you're concerned about not damaging the environment, get something civilized like a Spirit of Man; in a flammable environment, lay off the Fire Elementals.

It makes the choice of spirits for an occasion less of a no-brainer. It adds something to magical forensics besides assensing the astral signature. I like that.

If this was the intention of the rules, the authors should have mentioned it.

What do you get to analyze? Burnt stuff? The spirit still does not leave any trace but its signature. And once the spirit is dismissed this signature is worthless.

Lol what? Spirit of Man is the no-brainer choice for almost every situation. Fire Elemental isn't even second choice for a hermetic if you're super optimizing, Air Elementals are strictly better. Don't even get started on the Street Magic spirits.

If you want to make varied spirit choices more viable you need to let the Fire Elemental be less limited, not more.

There's lots of rules without designer commentary. I think the designers expected people to use common sense ("a fire aura is visible and can set a place on fire; a fire elemental is basically a sentient, mobile bonfire") rather than waste precious pages spelling out the obvious. Page count is a valuable resource, and few people want to read through a rulebook that spells out everything in enough detail to win a lawsuit.



It might clue you on to the killer being a fire spirit, for example. And it's not unlikely that there'll be some chemical traces - or telltale lack of traces - that can be used to distinguish between damage cause by a flamethrower and a fire spirit.

You shouldn't want to use fire spirits to defend a wooden home.

I too think the elemental spirits are on the lame side, not sufficiently differentiated in what they're good for, and not as good as some of the new spirits. But rules-lawyering away the flavorful, common-sense disadvantages of elementals isn't the way to fix that.

Using common sense for magic or other things that have no real world equivalent can be very tricky. Sometimes the rules ecven say that magic behaves contrary to common sense (it is easier to ignite a rock with a spell than it is to ignite gasoline)

That is true. Whether that knowledge helps the LEOs is a different story.

I agree with this. It's RAW and works well. The sprit version of the energy aura is not the same as the spell. The spell is the "always bathed in <element>" where the spirit power is only bathed in <element> when attacked or attacking. -easy-

-D

Both only have an explicit mechanical effect in melee (atack and defense) and both are continually on. Except for the DV they are the same.

Thanks. I didn't look up the spell before posting. So both of them would be safe standing in a big loose pile of paper (using fire aura) as long as you were't attacked (by the paper) or attacking it. -RAW-

I like it. It's magic after all and doesn't HAVE to make sense.

-D

Note: Physical, so does not apply all the time. Just most of it. Spirits may also Materialize like mages do, which may be another way to avoid it.

Personally, I don't see anywhere in the rules where it says that it can't be turned off, only that it's always on by default. There is a difference. Your ability to breathe, for instance, is "always on," but you can choose to hold your breath if you really want to.

Since the rules do offer an example of where it being on against the spirit's will isn't practical, I'd say that's the safer assumption to make.

This^^^^

I'm not exactly sure why it is such a point of contention.

Just like the spirit leaving behind a trail of scorched earth, this is an assumption that simply is not based on the rules. The Power is always on. If the spirit can turn it off it cannot be always on.

@Udoshi: You are talking about Manifestation not Materialization. A manifested Spirit/mage is only present on the astral plane despite being visible on the physical and thus cannot affect anything in any way on the physical plane. In case of the spirit Energy Aura is still on it just can't affect anything on the astral plane as it is a physical power.

Well, except for the bit about the Realistic Power (which, incidentally, is another "always on" power) allowing a Fire Spirit to appear as an ordinary woman.


Most adept powers are "always on," too. But the adept can disable them whenever he wishes.

"Always on" is just an easy way to say that a power doesn't require an action to use, requires no conscience effort to maintain, and thus is always assumed to be active. Nowhere does it say it must be active or that under no circumstances can it be disabled.

Case in point, Energy Aura has the "Action: Auto" label. Looking on page 293 of SR4A, you find out what that means: "Actions: Powers require either a Complex Action or Simple Action to activate, or they Automatically ('Auto') function at all times with no attention from the critter. Auto actions require no action to activate, as they are always on."

Again, nowhere does it say that it has to be on. It's just assumed to always be on and active, just like most adept powers and other similar rules/effects.

That exactly was the initial problem. Why would the rules of one power disable those of another?


Which actually are? I just went through the Powers of the BBB. They either require a decision and possibly an action to activate (Astral Perception, Killing Hands etc.) or are indeed always on and have no mention of being able to be turned off (Combat Sense, Improved Reflexes etc.)

I don't see what's unclear here. If something is always on you cannot turn it off at any time since this would break the condition of always.

Of course such Powers do not require an action to activate because they are already on all the time. And even in the sentence you quoted they say that such powers are "on all the time". You cannot turn something off that is on all the time.

I just think that there exist powers, such as for example Realistic Form and Energy Aura, that just don't combine well or at all. And I think that this incompatibility isn't necessarily a bad thing, from a game design viewpoint.

I don't see what the confusion is. You have a apparently human woman that leaves a trail of scorched ground wherever she walks.



-k

That's not confusion, it's objection. They don't think that's a good situation, and the RAW is also crazy enough to preclude it.

Just going to jump in here:


Can not a woman be "smoking hot" without actually being on fire?

Figuratively yes, literally not so much.

"It is a magic flame, my friends! It does not burn!"




-k

Personally, I think it is a matter of one power over ruling the other. The Realistic form should suppress everything that gives away the spirit's identity to a physical-only observer. At least for materialization spirits, which have the option of appearing as normal, or the realistic form.

On another note, other then free, former fire spirits, is it even possible for Fire spirits to have realistic form?

So what's stopping the Realistic Form giving the impression of a "smoking hot babe" without her being literally on fire?

I'm not aware of any standard, conjurable spirits that have Realistic Form.

The fact that the Energy Aura cannot be turned off, no mater how realistic the form is. Even if you say that the Aura becomes invisble, it would still work i.e. anyone attacking the spirit would be burned.

Another option would be to create an ally spirit with both powers, to create a paradox. Unfortunately I cannot figure out how to use it to create perpetual motion with it, similar to the dropped cat with a buttered toast on the back.

Actually, a friend of mine back home was smoking hot when she was on fire. She still looks very good afterwards as well.

She freaked the hell out of her grade school when she mentioned to the class that she smoked once, as well.

And yet the books give an example of where it is turned off. Fancy that.

Isn't it tradition in SR to use examples that do not reflect the rules? I'm thinking about SR3's recoil accumulation.

Oh, so it only works if she's attacked.

Well.

That suits everyone just fine. It's not like she sets the drapes on fire by walking past.

That's just two wrongs making a right, possibly.

Some people think that it's wrong for such a power to unduly hamper a spirit, and/or be uncontrollable. Others think it's wrong for such a power to be 'illogically' (or 'metagame-ly'?) restricted to only attack/defense (see flaming spirit sword threads).

Personally, I can see how a thing could have an uncontrollable energy aura power, with negative and positive consequences; I can also see a controllable (on/off) version of that existing. I can even see such a power that visually wreathes the user in energy, but only *directs* that energy through attacks or defense (reflexively). The point is that these are all distinct options, and we should know what thing has which kind. We should also ideally have a good reason for it that choice, informed by game balance, the principle of TANSTAAFL, and—of course—coolness.

I still say the main problem is Realistic Form is insane.

Sure, if the example is clearly wrong. But again, the rules don't say that you can't turn such a power off, only that it's always considered on by default. An example shows where it's clearly not active, indicating that it can be deactivated. The rules don't contradict that.

As for adept powers being able to be turned off, if they're not then FAB-III (and various other things) must be crazy scary for them in your version of the setting. Then there's the whole being completely unable to hide that they're a magician without initiating bit? And people around here think cyberware scanners are a hindrance...

I thought we were talking about the spirit power, though. Totally different, right?

Fine.

It's Magic.

Moving on.

No the rules say the power is always on.
The example does indeed contradict the rules for Powers with the Duration: Always.

How does that differ from interpreting the powers differently? FAB III can attach itself to any awakened character and will only drain its MAG if and when the character is astrally active. As long as adepts are not astrally perceiving, they will only carry the bacteria around until they either find a more nourishing host or they starve.

What do active adept powers have to do with identifying uninitiated magicians?