And again, your ability to breathe is "always on," but you can hold your breath just fine. By ability to see is "always on," but I can close my eyes and bam, it's off. The word "always" is being used as shorthand for "automatically active." As in, it takes no action or even thought to activate the power, and there are no consequences in game terms (such as a concentration modifier) to keep it active. That's all


Powers are astrally active, just like spells. To get rid of FAB, you "turn everything off" and wait it out or otherwise need to have some means of destroying it.


The auras they create. Anyone just glancing in their general direction while using astral perception can tell they have something active, triggering an Assensing Test to find out more. With their powers off, that doesn't happen unless they're assensing everyone who wanders by.

The rulebook does not describe any of those things as "always on"


I never heard about such a thing. Care to give proof by quoting one of the rulebooks? I doubt you will find anything to that nature. Both planes are completely separate. So a physical power never has an astral presence. The rulebook does not even say whether active adept powers are "magical subjects".


What makes you think that the appearance of powers is more easily discernable than the required MAG Attribute? That needs a hit to be found.

There's this thing called the English language. It has many varied concepts associated with it. This is one of them. The description for what "always on" means is exactly what I described in the previous post. In this case, "always" is just a game term for that description; ie, no action required, no consequence for having it active, and no requirements to keep it active. Nowhere does it say that it can't be turned off if you really want to. Just that turning it on is assumed and free of charge.


Read up on astral barriers and wards. A quick glance has this sentence: "The character may also bring a number of friends, spirits, active foci, sustained spells, or other astral forms with her through the barrier equal to the net hits scored." Note the underscored text in particular. There are plenty of other bits of text scattered throughout various books.


I'm assuming by MAG you mean Magic. You don't need to make a test to spot something that's right in front of your face. Assensing is used to determine details about auras and astral forms, not that they exist. Just like you don't need to make a Perception Test to tell some guy is standing right in front of you. Spells, powers, foci, etc. all have auras all their own.

Wait, how does 'other astral forms' imply adept powers?

This is an important question, I can't imagine it's never been nailed down before.

Yes, there is the English language, but you are confusing two words. What you mean is automatic not always. If something is on at all times or invariably, there can be no time when it is off. That is simple logic.


This largely depends on what barrier we are talking about. There are dual-natured ones (wards, mana lodges) which impede those things on both planes and there are those that do in on only one plane. Astral ones will not impede the adept unless he is dual-natured i.e. astrally active.


As Yerameyahu already pointed out the book never says that adept powers have an astral form. There is however this:
So we do not know if those powers are separate from the adept.

Not helping.

I seem to recall that in Shadows of the Underworld there was an adventure called "Two Solitudes", where the runners are hired to find an exec's son, who'd gone missing. When they catch up with the son they discover he ran away, because he was A) gay, and B) his lover was a free fire kami. So given that the kami had Realistic Form (or specifically, Human Form) and Energy Aura, and fooled other people into thinking he was human, we can assume the energy aura can be turned off. Also, given that the student and the kami could have sex we can also assume the energy aura can be turned off.

Let's also not forget that the critter power rules are EXPLICITLY noted to not be hard and fast, and should be subject to alteration by the GM whenever they feel appropriate.

I don't see anything wrong with turning energy aura off, ergo.

It seems to me that some people on the board are simultaneously...

• clinging to a literal verbatim reading of some sentences in RAW (e.g. always on), and
• making assumptions about what one power does (e.g. smoking, charring the floor, etc), and
• dismissing what the other power can do (i.e. that it's negated by auras).

I see no reason why the powers have to be in conflict. By RAW, the aura only has effects when the spirit attacks or is attacked. If it's not attacking or being attacked, it can touch, be touched, hold hands, shag, pour gasoline on itself, whatever, and the aura has no effect. This may not make sense to you, but "Poof! - It's MAGIC". If you're insisting on a pendantic, literal interpretation of the rules, then you need to interpret ALL the rules literally. The realistic form power affects either what the spirit looks like (i.e. flames would be imperceptible/invisible/intangible) or affects how you percieve them (i.e. there are flames, but your eyes/mind refuse to notice them). Either way a third party doesn't notice.

The only remaining question in my mind is if you can later notice the aura when you do attack the spirit. So, you meet a guy (actually realistic form elemental), who looks perfectly normal, shake his hand, etc without noticing anything unusual. Later you get in an argument and punch him. Since the guy was actually a spirit with elemental aura your punch burns you - do you then notice the aura? Or do you suddenly look confusedly at your fist wondering why punching that mundane guy hurt you so much?

[EDIT] Thought of another question - Does the aura only effect the one the spirit attacks, or can bystanders be affected? If my fire spirit is carrying a wounded team member, and somebody punches the spirit (in turn getting burned by the aura) does the team member get burned also?

It's the list that implies it. Active foci, spirits, sustained spells, and other magical abilities have their own auras/astral forms. Adept powers are no different other than that some of them are considered "innate" and can past barriers unimpeded. But that doesn't mean they don't have an aura or astral form, only that they can bypass a barrier despite that.


And what you're doing is completely and utterly ignoring that "always" means "automatic" by the definition of that particular set of rules. It's right there, in black and white.


Using that logic, they wouldn't need to use the word "automatic" in the description. "Automatic" implies that it's not a completely persistent ability, just one that requires no effort whatsoever to use and maintain. That's all "always" means by the rules. The definition of the word in the English language doesn't mean a damn thing in this case, because the game redefined what it means in that particular case.


Right, they won't impede him. But it can impede some of his powers. Just like it won't impede a magician with sustained spells or active foci, but it sure as hell will impede those spells and foci.


Why? Just because they (painfully obviously) use magic differently from magicians, it doesn't mean they're not magical. Innate powers are "part" of the adept, but at no time do they stop being magical themselves. Just like how a cyberlimb doesn't stop being technological just because you have one implanted.

It doesn't mention adept powers. You're begging the question.

It doesn't mention a lot of things. That's what "and other astral forms" encompasses, as opposed to listing each and every instance throughout the entirity of the game.

The rules are so damn scattered that, being busy in the real world, I have neither the time nor the heart to go searching for everything. The one I can recall off hand was easy enough to find. Street Magic, p. 112, Astral Topography: "Magic auras are equally complex; spells, physical mana barriers, and active adept and critter powers are alive with color."

And for what it's worth, I couldn't find a reference to spells having distinct astral forms, either, even though I know they do.

That's my point. It could mean anything… that is an astral form. The *question* is 'are adept powers astral forms?', so this can't be relevant. If you view that question as settled, then it must be based on some other evidence, because this piece of evidence cannot possibly support it. You're assuming that the proposition to be proved is already true, in the argument.

There, see? That makes sense. Now, is an aura an astral form? I thought astrals forms were 'physically' astral 'objects', while auras are just colors (possibly 'intangible' on the astral).

I never said the spirit should scorch the floor or affect the world in any way other than when attacking or being attacked. An Aura of Flame, not heat, however implies visibility. Strangely the other mentioned elements needn't be visible. So we are back at the paradox.

As above the question remains whether the aura is visible. You could maybe recognize what happens by examining your wounds. Burns look different than bruises. There is no crunch on that however ans you never know how you are affected. If you are punched by a flaming fist, are you really burned or was the contact too short and only the kinetic impulse is relevant for the injuries?

Nope, by RAW.

Prove it. The description in the rules of "always" as duration in no way implies that those powers can be turned off:
"constantly on" cannot mean "can be turned off at will"

Sorry for being ambiguous. I meant the foci and spells will only be impeded if they are present on the right plane. Wards will impede them on both planes, the mana barrier spell however only those affecting the same plane that barrier spell is cast on.

Ol'Scratch did you by chance start playing SR at 2nd Edition or earlier? At that time there was no hard barrier between the two planes. Since SR3 though it has been established that anything that is on one plane cannot affect anything on the other. The exception are dual-natured entities. Just so that you don't start, spells are not dual-natured.

I never said they were not magical. I just said they don't have astral forms. Whether they are supposed to have them never has been mentioned. And to the cyberlimb, yes it remains technological, but it is treated differently once it is implanted by spells. You can no longer target it alone nor is the spell resisted by OR but by the recipient's Attributes.

I think my interpretation of Realistic Form isn't the same as some other peoples' here. The way I read it, normally spirits looking like physical things (people, objects) don't look realistic. Kinda like an obvious CGI character among the live action crowd. RF remedies that. Without RF, a spirit will always look supernatural.

However, it doesn't say that it hides the effects of any powers the spirit uses. So a spirit using RF and Energy Aura would look like a person (mage, adept) using EA.

Does EA look like anything, and does it do anything besides when you're attacked? I think it does; the first line of the description (SR4A, p. 294) is:


The combat-related consequences are then detailed, but that first sentence is general, saying that it does damage to its environment all the time. And that's probably obvious.


As for the on/off debate: it doesn't say it can be turned off, and it says it's always active. To me, that means that it can't be turned off.

Yes, it does, because all its saying is that it requires no effort, thought, or concentration to activate and maintain the power. It's automatically activated. In no way whatsoever does that mean it has to be on, that it can't be deactivated, only that activating it -- which in and of itself means that there is a state where it's not active -- is an automatic action. One that doesn't require a Free, Simple, or Complex Action to activate. One that doesn't carry a sustaining dice pool penalty. One that even if you're knocked unconscious will continue to operate. That's all "always" means in this case.

Just like the description says.


I know what you meant, and in this case you're incorrect. Yes, spells and other magicial abilities only affect targets on the same plane. This isn't about affecting targets. Active foci, sustained spells (Physical or Mana), and other magical goodness with their own aura/astral form are affected by things like astral wards. Just like the aforementioned quote said.


I've been playing since the original game and have been posting here since long before the Bulldrek fiasco.


I'm aware of the difference. I'm also aware of what is and isn't dual-natured. It doesn't matter. An astral barrier will ruin the day of a Physical spell just as easily as a Mana spell.


Just like some innate adept powers. That doesn't mean they stop being adept powers. That doesn't mean they stop having an aura/astral form. They're just "part of" the adept as far as targeting and similar things are concerned. Again, as previously mentioned.

If an adept walks by an astrally perceiving character, that perceiver doesn't need to make any test to notice he has multiple auras. If wants to learn what kind of auras they are, then he needs to make an Assensing Tests.