Yes. Martial Arts provides rules for doing interesting moves that would be unavailable without it.

A GM can always allow a player to do something that is not specifically allowed by the rules, but why not use the rules that are there for it?

In old SR2 prior to martial arts being available, our group just had the GM rule, 'Yeah, you have a skill of 5, sure you can try that.' and just free form special moves. You can still do that today, but Martial Arts provides a rule system to facilitate it.

The provide rules for doing *crunch* that would be unavailable without it. You can describe any crazy move you want, but you can't have any result besides damage and normal KD. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You could have used (and still can, actually) the special effects of the called shot rule for stuff like that before the Martial Arts rules came out... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That's true, problem solved. Vaguely. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But my position is just that you don't need the MA rules for 'description'.

Very True. Descriptively, they are unnecessary. They are pretty cool, though, at least in my opinion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Here's an oddity: we've always been told that close combat wasn't just one blow per dice roll, but a lot of footwork and feinting all put together into that one attack roll. But the MA system sort of breaks it all up into very non-generic components again...

Because it adds an extra layer of difficulty with out what we see as a reward. Our stand point is why make extra rules when the ones we have work just fine. At your table, obviously it's a little different.

Most of the maneuvers in the MA system can still be viewed as a composite of several individual movements without any trouble (e.g. Ground Fighting, Herding). Some maneuvers are more specific (e.g. Sweep, Throw), but you can still view them as the key element within a series of movements. So for instance, you can describe a Throw as coming at the conclusion of a series of jabs and blocks when the attacker overcommits on one of his punches. I think the SR MA system did a pretty good job of adding crunchy options while protecting the overall abstractness of the combat system.

That basically involves a lot of house rules and GM fiat, and didn't you say you had no house rules or fiat at all? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

That is one of my problems with the martial arts system. It turns what is frequently a pretty basic combat move into a special maneuver. A lot of the maneuvers that you could not do without the martial art system should be basic moves, the martial art system should provide benefits to doing those moves not the capability to do them.(that should be covered by the basic skill)

Hear, hear.

I wish they'd just put all the maneuvers in a bin, said "anyone can try this, at such-and-such difficulty", and more skilled (Unarmed) combatants have an easier time at it, and perhaps a Martial Arts specialization on Unarmed Combat adds dice.

Martial Arts should be a Skill you train, not a Quality. And anyone with Unarmed Combat/Blades/Clubs 6 is obviously a martial artist.

No House Rules. It is right in the book. Take a penalty, Get a Special Effect. Get Real Cain...
And GM Fiat is already a part of the game. Never said that did not exist. I said we have almost no House Rules (We do have a few, some of which we are just trying out)

So. Obviously we need to make a list of the maneuvers, give each of them a DP penalty (and/or other 'cost'), and declare victory.

Heh... That could work... Maybe. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

First of all, thank you for not overempohasizing my name.

Second, the rule says "special effect:, but doesn't go on to describe how to gauge the effectiveness of that "special effect". If you want to throw one guy into a crowd of others, and knock them all down, that doesn't seem nearly the same as trying a feint (disorient) or simply going for better positioning for your next shot (herding) or defense (evasion). If you leave it to a case-by-case basis, you're inviting a lot of GM fiat. If you codify them, then you've created house rules.

We leave it at GM Fiat... That is what he is there for, after all. As long as he is consistant and "fair" there is no problem.

Dice pool penalty is one way to approach it, another is with hit thresholds. I don't have my books handy, but I think that White Wolf used something like this in their Aeon/Aberrant/Adventure! line. If so, given the similarities in the system (attribute + skill rolling for a set TN and counting hits/successes), using different dice of course, it might be a place to look for ideas.

Regarding the actual qualities, I would leave them as is. Speaking from experience, some people put more of themselves into studying martial arts (reflected in BP/karma expenditure). Those people tend to have some advantages over others.

When mixing and matching to create custom styles I think I would still limit a character to 4 perks, and would be careful about what gets stacked. Again, speaking from personal experience, there is no 'unbeatable' style out there; it's usually a matter of preference and use. That being said, there shouldn't be the 'perfect' combo of techniques to make the 'unbeatable' style in game either in my opinion.

I don't think general training in martial arts should be represented by qualities, it's a perfect example of what Skills are for. Maneuvers should have a Threshold, or dice pool penalty, different action speed, or other "price tag" for what they're worth.

Those "perks" are a bit trickier. Some basically duplicate what dice pool/Attributes already do, and can be dropped if you like. Others ("Take Aim is a Free Action") are of course harder to convert. Although I wonder if they can't be neatly divided into things that are too powerful and things that are irrelevant.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of using Qualities as skill bonuses, did you notice? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Never would have guessed Ascalaphus... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Pretty much this sums up my feelings. But it's been an interesting read.

Kind of makes you wonder how your life had been changed if Harrison Ford hadn't been sick when they were filming that and instead was able to act out the large fight scene they had scripted. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

And that's why mundane's suck, folks! Next time, roll an adept!

I'm glad it worked out the way it did. However I can find a dozen or so cinematic examples that equally express how I feel.



Heh. Even the best adept is about 100 feet from deader than crap at any given moment in Shadowrun. Maybe 150.

As a buddy of mine says, "You can learn martial arts or you can learn how to fight." In my experience martial arts qualities are a poor return on your BP or karma investment.

I do really like them. As Glyph pointed out on the first page, it can raise the power level of melee, but I have not found it breakingly so. For sheer damage, you can get an extra +3 DV..for 15 BP/30 Karma...IF you don't take any of the other benefits. Then there are the maneuvers-so yeah, as a melee fan I do love em to customize my characters, but it's true that it is one of those ''If you play melee, you kinda have to do it if you want to maximize things.'' I do use it as written in game, though, since I have a blast with it.