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Paul
Do you use the Shadowrun martial Arts system?

I don't disallow it, but do find it to be way too annoying to bother with and way too fan boy/wannabe for my tastes. So far as I can tell my players could care less about the Martial Arts system, vaguely acknowledging it exists

But what about at your game? At your table?
Chimera
I have GM'ed and played in games in which players have chosen a martial art as a combat option for their characters. In all three instances, the players had first-hand experience with said martial art, so there is some real-world familiarity there.

Usually it wasn't a problem; I'm all for a player trying something different and it was made for some interesting moments when someone would use a judo throw on an opponent off a tall building. But for one player in particular, it was. He was playing an adept who specialized in martial arts, taekwondo in particular. And I just remember him constantly arguing with the GM when it would come into play, which was every chance he got: "Taekwondo allows me to do X, so he shouldn't be able to do Y while I have him by his Z" and so on.

Whenever it was this player's turn I went and got a snack because it took so long to resolve. It came down to the other players taking turns shooting the adept's foes in the face while they sparred, which just led to more arguments, etc. So while I think its alright (in moderation), it can definitely be a distraction.
Kirk
QUOTE (Chimera @ Oct 24 2011, 10:13 AM) *
I have GM'ed and played in games in which players have chosen a martial art as a combat option for their characters. In all three instances, the players had first-hand experience with said martial art, so there is some real-world familiarity there.

Usually it wasn't a problem; I'm all for a player trying something different and it was made for some interesting moments when someone would use a judo throw on an opponent off a tall building. But for one player in particular, it was. He was playing an adept who specialized in martial arts, taekwondo in particular. And I just remember him constantly arguing with the GM when it would come into play, which was every chance he got: "Taekwondo allows me to do X, so he shouldn't be able to do Y while I have him by his Z" and so on.

Whenever it was this player's turn I went and got a snack because it took so long to resolve. It came down to the other players taking turns shooting the adept's foes in the face while they sparred, which just led to more arguments, etc. So while I think its alright (in moderation), it can definitely be a distraction.

heh. I've not yet used them in SR, but I had a player like that once upon a time in another system. After a bit, I got up, went into the back room, came back, and put one of my belts on the table.

"Still want to tell me what you can and can't do with this?"
Yerameyahu
… RL argumentation? Bleagh. Just do what the rules say and nothing else, and house rule those if they're still a problem. Martial Arts are a crunch tweaker option, that's all; you can call yourself a master of whatever you want with just Unarmed 6.
DamienKnight
Martial arts adds alot of flavor to an otherwise "Punch Hard, defend, use edge to punch harder" back and forth.

Sweeps are neat, throws too.

However:

Two Weapon Rules allow for inordinate amounts of dice for defending can be a problem, especially when paired with Counter-Strike and Reposite.

Damaging Disarm + Disarm breaks the concept of only hurting enemies when you take an action.

Raising DV on unarmed or Blades stacks with adept powers, adds to ridiculous damage values in unarmed.

Using martial arts WILL greatly amplify the damage output of your hand to hand characters. If your game needs this, then great! If not, then its probably not worth the unbalancing.

The runners in my group seem to really love hand to hand combat, so we play with Martial Arts rules. It just so happens that any NPC with a decent unarmed skill has a few martial arts styles and maneuvers. Anything the players can exploit the enemies can too!

Also, imagine if you are a thug with an SMG. Some opponents are standing back shooting at you with pistols, but another one is rushing you with a giant sword. Who are you going to shoot first? Personally I am going to full auto the guy with the sword. People who use melee exclusively and decimate their foes in a single strike are going to end up taking Aggro.
Bigity
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 24 2011, 09:35 AM) *
… RL argumentation? Bleagh. Just do what the rules say and nothing else, and house rule those if they're still a problem. Martial Arts are a crunch tweaker option, that's all; you can call yourself a master of whatever you want with just Unarmed 6.


This. SR combat is abstract, and the martial arts rules are not. They mesh poorly at best, in all editions.
ggodo
Ok, this was bothering me on the other martial arts thread, Can you use two manuvers that require net hits simultaneously? One of the tricks that was suggested was Disorient + Set Up + Finishing Move to simultaneously give them - Net Hits and you + Net Hits on the finisher. Can you do that or are they mutually exclusive?
Yerameyahu
AFAIK, the rules can't answer that. There's a blurb about allowing combined maneuvers, but that doesn't tell us much.
Paul
QUOTE (DamienKnight @ Oct 24 2011, 10:39 AM) *
Martial arts adds alot of flavor to an otherwise "Punch Hard, defend, use edge to punch harder" back and forth.


Hmm. I guess we just don't have that problem. A lot of it is that my players and I never just describe it that way-unarmed combat skill is not just punch or kick, but representative of how skilled you are. We also don't spend a lot of time in unarmed combat scenarios-in part because they try to avoid fighting unarmed when there's so many great weapons out there.

But needless to say I don't have a problem with "flavor" in our fight scenes,
Cain
Martial arts in SR4.5 is about more than flavor. As Paul correctly points out, an imaginative player can do just that with our without the rules.

However, martial arts can spark the imagination. It encourages descriptive combat in a way that the base rules don't allow for. I'm allowing my least imaginative player, a guy with special needs and other issues, to take Krav Maga for his character. Hopefully, it's going to encourage him to describe his actions more, or at least break him out of the: "I hit it!" mentality.
Medicineman
QUOTE
Do you use the Shadowrun martial Arts system?

Sure I do.
For some of my Chars its very important. "Meteor" my Troll Pit fighter had some very interesting (and entertaining for the other Players)
fights using Combinations of Maneuvers.
My new Char "Skyblade", a Swordmage, is inventing his own Martial Arts for his Blade
and I also invented Sinanju ( Remo the Adventure begins wink.gif )for two other Chars
Martial Arts and its Maneuvers can add a Helluva Flavour

Hough !
Medicineman
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Oct 24 2011, 01:21 PM) *
... and I also invented Sinanju ( Remo the Adventure begins wink.gif ) for two other Chars. Martial Arts and its Maneuvers can add a Helluva Flavour

Hough !
Medicineman


So, Medicineman, how old are the characters? After all, it only takes 20 years to learn the Art of Shinanju (assuming that you are qualified to learn the art in the first place), 17 if you cut corners. smile.gif

And yes, Paul, We use them too (The Martial Arts rules)...
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Paul @ Oct 24 2011, 09:56 AM) *
Do you use the Shadowrun martial Arts system?

I don't disallow it, but do find it to be way too annoying to bother with and way too fan boy/wannabe for my tastes. So far as I can tell my players could care less about the Martial Arts system, vaguely acknowledging it exists

But what about at your game? At your table?

I do to an extent. I got rid of the martial arts qualities, changed some of their perks into maneuvers while getting rid of the majority of them, and then let the players buy maneuvers as "mini qualities" as they see fit at 2 BP a pop. We don't use limits on positive qualities either, so if you really want to buy a ton you can. No skin off my back if that's how you wanna spend your points.

Since that's all they really are -- cheaper positive qualities -- it's not really a big deal. Compare Off-Hand Training (2 BP) to Ambidexterity (5 BP). The latter basically does everything the former does, but applies to any suitable melee weapon or firearm while the former is limited to just one skill.
Crazy Ivan
I allow it, and it does make for some interesting moments, but it really does add a lot of flavor to "I hit, I miss" when it is described. Even without it, it adds background and story to a character (some styles anyways).

As far as the gripe about players remarking about what the styles let you do in real life, I laugh as well. Being trained in several styles and fought against my fair share of others, I know that there is no logical playing system on this planet (or any other) that really can showcase that intricacy of style (or combination of styles) against another style beyond the benefits of the martial arts "advantages" and associated maneuvers.

Dez384
Personally, I love getting creative with martial arts and maneuvers. I feel that they give melee a nice edge.

However, as Loch reminds me every time his troll fires that minigun, melee capability doesn't mean anything if the martial artist can't get close enough to fight.
Glyph
The pros:

Gives melee combat more options and flavor.

Adds more of a tactical element to melee combat.


The (potential) cons:

Be aware that it does raise the power level of melee. It also raises the cost of being good at melee, making what is usually a niche role even more expensive.

There are a few problematic maneuvers and combos. The GM might want to house rule a few things, and watch out for cheesy attempted rules exploits from players.

The styles and maneuvers don't always match that well. I would probably recommend that you let the players pick the martial arts and maneuvers that they want, then call it what they want. In other words, if someone gets two levels of Arnis de Mano and one level of Sangre y Acero to get +2 DV to edged weapons and the ability to do damage on a disarm, and wants to call it "Elven blade mastery", that would be fine with me.
Loch
QUOTE (Dez384 @ Oct 24 2011, 09:27 PM) *
Personally, I love getting creative with martial arts and maneuvers. I feel that they give melee a nice edge.

However, as Loch reminds me every time his troll fires that minigun, melee capability doesn't mean anything if the martial artist can't get close enough to fight.


Hey, it's not my fault all combats take place in massive rooms with vaulted ceilings and nary a chest-high wall to be found... cyber.gif
ggodo
QUOTE (Crazy Ivan @ Oct 24 2011, 03:33 PM) *
As far as the gripe about players remarking about what the styles let you do in real life, I laugh as well. Being trained in several styles and fought against my fair share of others, I know that there is no logical playing system on this planet (or any other) that really can showcase that intricacy of style (or combination of styles) against another style beyond the benefits of the martial arts "advantages" and associated maneuvers.

The best one I've seen was Tae Kwon Do's +1 to to knockdown. Every taken a full sidekick from someone trained and roughly your size? You fall over about as often as not. +1 to charging flavored as Jumpkicks. That I'll allow on rule of cool, but 13 years of training and I cannot explain to you why it makes you better at fighting two guys. Also, Hapkido is more similar to the grappling martial arts. It's about holds and limb breaking. It is very different from Tae Kwon Do.
Medicineman
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 24 2011, 04:55 PM) *
So, Medicineman, how old are the characters? After all, it only takes 20 years to learn the Art of Shinanju (assuming that you are qualified to learn the art in the first place), 17 if you cut corners. smile.gif

...


One is an Elf
the Other the son of a Sinanju Sensei (his Mother is Japanese and he works for the Japanese Secret Service and his Mission is to keep an Eye on the Megacons from a Runners Point of View, but psssst, thats his Dark Secret ). and He's (IIRC) only Level 1
wink.gif smile.gif

with an Offtopicdance
Medicineman

Looking down
Hey,You've got Mail smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Oct 25 2011, 12:38 AM) *
One is an Elf
the Other the son of a Sinanju Sensei (his Mother is Japanese and he works for the Japanese Secret Service and his Mission is to keep an Eye on the Megacons from a Runners Point of View, but psssst, thats his Dark Secret ). and He's (IIRC) only Level 1
wink.gif smile.gif

with an Offtopicdance
Medicineman


Heheheh.... Cool.

Just a note, though. Sinanju is a Korean Art, not Japanese. smile.gif
With a Cultural Dance?
Paul
It's interesting to see how many of you equate the Martial Arts system with "Descriptive".
DamienKnight
QUOTE (Paul @ Oct 25 2011, 09:17 AM) *
It's interesting to see how many of you equate the Martial Arts system with "Descriptive".

Its not like its impossible to imagine an interesting fight without them, but there are some neato moves that you just cant do without martial arts maneuvers. Its so much more fun to throw one guy into another and have rules for it, than just winging it and saying, 'Sure, you had a good roll, yeah I guess the guy could probably get knocked into the other'

Having an array of styles and maneuvers makes martial arts more interesting.
LurkerOutThere
Honestly the current SR implementation of close quarters combat still borns any martial arts system. I see what their going for but we've literally reached a point where martial arts are a non viable concept for anyone but a hyper specialist adept.
Paul
QUOTE (DamienKnight @ Oct 25 2011, 11:33 AM) *
..but there are some neato moves that you just cant do without martial arts maneuvers.


Hmmm. You mean from a mechanical stand point?
MK Ultra
I go pritty much the same was as glyph. I allow mixed martial arts and the player can pick the name. They can do what the rules say, not what they think a user of a specific art could do - if they didnīt pick the right qualities / maneuvers to reflect this, then the character is just not as advanced, or specialised in a different way. I donīt think it is too unbalancing (safe for some adept/cyber munchkin combos maybe - iīm not such a min-maxer, it never came up), as it has planty of restrictions (mostly guns wink.gif).
DamienKnight
QUOTE (Paul @ Oct 25 2011, 11:13 AM) *
Hmmm. You mean from a mechanical stand point?

Yes. Martial Arts provides rules for doing interesting moves that would be unavailable without it.

A GM can always allow a player to do something that is not specifically allowed by the rules, but why not use the rules that are there for it?

In old SR2 prior to martial arts being available, our group just had the GM rule, 'Yeah, you have a skill of 5, sure you can try that.' and just free form special moves. You can still do that today, but Martial Arts provides a rule system to facilitate it.
Yerameyahu
The provide rules for doing *crunch* that would be unavailable without it. You can describe any crazy move you want, but you can't have any result besides damage and normal KD. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 25 2011, 01:53 PM) *
The provide rules for doing *crunch* that would be unavailable without it. You can describe any crazy move you want, but you can't have any result besides damage and normal KD. smile.gif


You could have used (and still can, actually) the special effects of the called shot rule for stuff like that before the Martial Arts rules came out... smile.gif
Yerameyahu
That's true, problem solved. Vaguely. smile.gif But my position is just that you don't need the MA rules for 'description'.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 25 2011, 02:49 PM) *
That's true, problem solved. Vaguely. smile.gif But my position is just that you don't need the MA rules for 'description'.


Very True. Descriptively, they are unnecessary. They are pretty cool, though, at least in my opinion. smile.gif
Ascalaphus
Here's an oddity: we've always been told that close combat wasn't just one blow per dice roll, but a lot of footwork and feinting all put together into that one attack roll. But the MA system sort of breaks it all up into very non-generic components again...
Paul
QUOTE (DamienKnight @ Oct 25 2011, 03:51 PM) *
A GM can always allow a player to do something that is not specifically allowed by the rules, but why not use the rules that are there for it?


Because it adds an extra layer of difficulty with out what we see as a reward. Our stand point is why make extra rules when the ones we have work just fine. At your table, obviously it's a little different.
Daishi
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Oct 25 2011, 03:40 PM) *
Here's an oddity: we've always been told that close combat wasn't just one blow per dice roll, but a lot of footwork and feinting all put together into that one attack roll. But the MA system sort of breaks it all up into very non-generic components again...

Most of the maneuvers in the MA system can still be viewed as a composite of several individual movements without any trouble (e.g. Ground Fighting, Herding). Some maneuvers are more specific (e.g. Sweep, Throw), but you can still view them as the key element within a series of movements. So for instance, you can describe a Throw as coming at the conclusion of a series of jabs and blocks when the attacker overcommits on one of his punches. I think the SR MA system did a pretty good job of adding crunchy options while protecting the overall abstractness of the combat system.
Cain
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 25 2011, 01:37 PM) *
You could have used (and still can, actually) the special effects of the called shot rule for stuff like that before the Martial Arts rules came out... smile.gif

That basically involves a lot of house rules and GM fiat, and didn't you say you had no house rules or fiat at all? cool.gif
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (DamienKnight @ Oct 25 2011, 11:33 AM) *
Its not like its impossible to imagine an interesting fight without them, but there are some neato moves that you just cant do without martial arts maneuvers. Its so much more fun to throw one guy into another and have rules for it, than just winging it and saying, 'Sure, you had a good roll, yeah I guess the guy could probably get knocked into the other'

Having an array of styles and maneuvers makes martial arts more interesting.



That is one of my problems with the martial arts system. It turns what is frequently a pretty basic combat move into a special maneuver. A lot of the maneuvers that you could not do without the martial art system should be basic moves, the martial art system should provide benefits to doing those moves not the capability to do them.(that should be covered by the basic skill)
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Oct 26 2011, 08:18 AM) *
That is one of my problems with the martial arts system. It turns what is frequently a pretty basic combat move into a special maneuver. A lot of the maneuvers that you could not do without the martial art system should be basic moves, the martial art system should provide benefits to doing those moves not the capability to do them.(that should be covered by the basic skill)


Hear, hear.

I wish they'd just put all the maneuvers in a bin, said "anyone can try this, at such-and-such difficulty", and more skilled (Unarmed) combatants have an easier time at it, and perhaps a Martial Arts specialization on Unarmed Combat adds dice.

Martial Arts should be a Skill you train, not a Quality. And anyone with Unarmed Combat/Blades/Clubs 6 is obviously a martial artist.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Cain @ Oct 26 2011, 12:02 AM) *
That basically involves a lot of house rules and GM fiat, and didn't you say you had no house rules or fiat at all? cool.gif


No House Rules. It is right in the book. Take a penalty, Get a Special Effect. Get Real Cain...
And GM Fiat is already a part of the game. Never said that did not exist. I said we have almost no House Rules (We do have a few, some of which we are just trying out)
Yerameyahu
So. Obviously we need to make a list of the maneuvers, give each of them a DP penalty (and/or other 'cost'), and declare victory.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 26 2011, 06:31 AM) *
So. Obviously we need to make a list of the maneuvers, give each of them a DP penalty (and/or other 'cost'), and declare victory.


Heh... That could work... Maybe. smile.gif
Cain
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 26 2011, 05:53 AM) *
No House Rules. It is right in the book. Take a penalty, Get a Special Effect. Get Real Cain...
And GM Fiat is already a part of the game. Never said that did not exist. I said we have almost no House Rules (We do have a few, some of which we are just trying out)

First of all, thank you for not overempohasizing my name.

Second, the rule says "special effect:, but doesn't go on to describe how to gauge the effectiveness of that "special effect". If you want to throw one guy into a crowd of others, and knock them all down, that doesn't seem nearly the same as trying a feint (disorient) or simply going for better positioning for your next shot (herding) or defense (evasion). If you leave it to a case-by-case basis, you're inviting a lot of GM fiat. If you codify them, then you've created house rules.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Cain @ Oct 26 2011, 09:55 AM) *
First of all, thank you for not overempohasizing my name.

Second, the rule says "special effect:, but doesn't go on to describe how to gauge the effectiveness of that "special effect". If you want to throw one guy into a crowd of others, and knock them all down, that doesn't seem nearly the same as trying a feint (disorient) or simply going for better positioning for your next shot (herding) or defense (evasion). If you leave it to a case-by-case basis, you're inviting a lot of GM fiat. If you codify them, then you've created house rules.


We leave it at GM Fiat... That is what he is there for, after all. As long as he is consistant and "fair" there is no problem.
Caadium
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Oct 26 2011, 12:26 AM) *
Hear, hear.

I wish they'd just put all the maneuvers in a bin, said "anyone can try this, at such-and-such difficulty", and more skilled (Unarmed) combatants have an easier time at it, and perhaps a Martial Arts specialization on Unarmed Combat adds dice.

Martial Arts should be a Skill you train, not a Quality. And anyone with Unarmed Combat/Blades/Clubs 6 is obviously a martial artist.



QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 26 2011, 05:31 AM) *
So. Obviously we need to make a list of the maneuvers, give each of them a DP penalty (and/or other 'cost'), and declare victory.


Dice pool penalty is one way to approach it, another is with hit thresholds. I don't have my books handy, but I think that White Wolf used something like this in their Aeon/Aberrant/Adventure! line. If so, given the similarities in the system (attribute + skill rolling for a set TN and counting hits/successes), using different dice of course, it might be a place to look for ideas.

Regarding the actual qualities, I would leave them as is. Speaking from experience, some people put more of themselves into studying martial arts (reflected in BP/karma expenditure). Those people tend to have some advantages over others.

When mixing and matching to create custom styles I think I would still limit a character to 4 perks, and would be careful about what gets stacked. Again, speaking from personal experience, there is no 'unbeatable' style out there; it's usually a matter of preference and use. That being said, there shouldn't be the 'perfect' combo of techniques to make the 'unbeatable' style in game either in my opinion.
Ascalaphus
I don't think general training in martial arts should be represented by qualities, it's a perfect example of what Skills are for. Maneuvers should have a Threshold, or dice pool penalty, different action speed, or other "price tag" for what they're worth.

Those "perks" are a bit trickier. Some basically duplicate what dice pool/Attributes already do, and can be dropped if you like. Others ("Take Aim is a Free Action") are of course harder to convert. Although I wonder if they can't be neatly divided into things that are too powerful and things that are irrelevant.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of using Qualities as skill bonuses, did you notice? smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Never would have guessed Ascalaphus... smile.gif
Paul
Pretty much this sums up my feelings. But it's been an interesting read.
Caadium
QUOTE (Paul @ Oct 27 2011, 10:59 AM) *
Pretty much this sums up my feelings. But it's been an interesting read.


Kind of makes you wonder how your life had been changed if Harrison Ford hadn't been sick when they were filming that and instead was able to act out the large fight scene they had scripted. spin.gif
Udoshi
QUOTE (Paul @ Oct 27 2011, 11:59 AM) *
Pretty much this sums up my feelings. But it's been an interesting read.


And that's why mundane's suck, folks! Next time, roll an adept!
Paul
QUOTE (Caadium @ Oct 27 2011, 05:11 PM) *
Kind of makes you wonder how your life had been changed if Harrison Ford hadn't been sick when they were filming that and instead was able to act out the large fight scene they had scripted. spin.gif


I'm glad it worked out the way it did. However I can find a dozen or so cinematic examples that equally express how I feel.

QUOTE (Udoshi @ Oct 27 2011, 07:55 PM) *
And that's why mundane's suck, folks! Next time, roll an adept!


Heh. Even the best adept is about 100 feet from deader than crap at any given moment in Shadowrun. Maybe 150.
last_of_the_great_mikeys
As a buddy of mine says, "You can learn martial arts or you can learn how to fight." In my experience martial arts qualities are a poor return on your BP or karma investment.
ElFenrir
I do really like them. As Glyph pointed out on the first page, it can raise the power level of melee, but I have not found it breakingly so. For sheer damage, you can get an extra +3 DV..for 15 BP/30 Karma...IF you don't take any of the other benefits. Then there are the maneuvers-so yeah, as a melee fan I do love em to customize my characters, but it's true that it is one of those ''If you play melee, you kinda have to do it if you want to maximize things.'' I do use it as written in game, though, since I have a blast with it.
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