Shadowrun Martial Arts Systems Options

[Paul]

Do you use the Shadowrun martial Arts system?

I don't disallow it, but do find it to be way too annoying to bother with and way too fan boy/wannabe for my tastes. So far as I can tell my players could care less about the Martial Arts system, vaguely acknowledging it exists

But what about at your game? At your table?

[Chimera]

I have GM'ed and played in games in which players have chosen a martial art as a combat option for their characters. In all three instances, the players had first-hand experience with said martial art, so there is some real-world familiarity there.

Usually it wasn't a problem; I'm all for a player trying something different and it was made for some interesting moments when someone would use a judo throw on an opponent off a tall building. But for one player in particular, it was. He was playing an adept who specialized in martial arts, taekwondo in particular. And I just remember him constantly arguing with the GM when it would come into play, which was every chance he got: "Taekwondo allows me to do X, so he shouldn't be able to do Y while I have him by his Z" and so on.

Whenever it was this player's turn I went and got a snack because it took so long to resolve. It came down to the other players taking turns shooting the adept's foes in the face while they sparred, which just led to more arguments, etc. So while I think its alright (in moderation), it can definitely be a distraction.

[Kirk]

I have GM'ed and played in games in which players have chosen a martial art as a combat option for their characters. In all three instances, the players had first-hand experience with said martial art, so there is some real-world familiarity there.

Usually it wasn't a problem; I'm all for a player trying something different and it was made for some interesting moments when someone would use a judo throw on an opponent off a tall building. But for one player in particular, it was. He was playing an adept who specialized in martial arts, taekwondo in particular. And I just remember him constantly arguing with the GM when it would come into play, which was every chance he got: "Taekwondo allows me to do X, so he shouldn't be able to do Y while I have him by his Z" and so on.

Whenever it was this player's turn I went and got a snack because it took so long to resolve. It came down to the other players taking turns shooting the adept's foes in the face while they sparred, which just led to more arguments, etc. So while I think its alright (in moderation), it can definitely be a distraction.

heh. I've not yet used them in SR, but I had a player like that once upon a time in another system. After a bit, I got up, went into the back room, came back, and put one of my belts on the table.

"Still want to tell me what you can and can't do with this?"

[Yerameyahu]

… RL argumentation? Bleagh. Just do what the rules say and nothing else, and house rule those if they're still a problem. Martial Arts are a crunch tweaker option, that's all; you can call yourself a master of whatever you want with just Unarmed 6.

[DamienKnight]

Martial arts adds alot of flavor to an otherwise "Punch Hard, defend, use edge to punch harder" back and forth.

Sweeps are neat, throws too.

However:

Two Weapon Rules allow for inordinate amounts of dice for defending can be a problem, especially when paired with Counter-Strike and Reposite.

Damaging Disarm + Disarm breaks the concept of only hurting enemies when you take an action.

Raising DV on unarmed or Blades stacks with adept powers, adds to ridiculous damage values in unarmed.

Using martial arts WILL greatly amplify the damage output of your hand to hand characters. If your game needs this, then great! If not, then its probably not worth the unbalancing.

The runners in my group seem to really love hand to hand combat, so we play with Martial Arts rules. It just so happens that any NPC with a decent unarmed skill has a few martial arts styles and maneuvers. Anything the players can exploit the enemies can too!

Also, imagine if you are a thug with an SMG. Some opponents are standing back shooting at you with pistols, but another one is rushing you with a giant sword. Who are you going to shoot first? Personally I am going to full auto the guy with the sword. People who use melee exclusively and decimate their foes in a single strike are going to end up taking Aggro.

[Bigity]

… RL argumentation? Bleagh. Just do what the rules say and nothing else, and house rule those if they're still a problem. Martial Arts are a crunch tweaker option, that's all; you can call yourself a master of whatever you want with just Unarmed 6.

This. SR combat is abstract, and the martial arts rules are not. They mesh poorly at best, in all editions.

[ggodo]

Ok, this was bothering me on the other martial arts thread, Can you use two manuvers that require net hits simultaneously? One of the tricks that was suggested was Disorient + Set Up + Finishing Move to simultaneously give them - Net Hits and you + Net Hits on the finisher. Can you do that or are they mutually exclusive?

[Yerameyahu]

AFAIK, the rules can't answer that. There's a blurb about allowing combined maneuvers, but that doesn't tell us much.

[Paul]

Martial arts adds alot of flavor to an otherwise "Punch Hard, defend, use edge to punch harder" back and forth.

Hmm. I guess we just don't have that problem. A lot of it is that my players and I never just describe it that way-unarmed combat skill is not just punch or kick, but representative of how skilled you are. We also don't spend a lot of time in unarmed combat scenarios-in part because they try to avoid fighting unarmed when there's so many great weapons out there.

But needless to say I don't have a problem with "flavor" in our fight scenes,

[Cain]

Martial arts in SR4.5 is about more than flavor. As Paul correctly points out, an imaginative player can do just that with our without the rules.

However, martial arts can spark the imagination. It encourages descriptive combat in a way that the base rules don't allow for. I'm allowing my least imaginative player, a guy with special needs and other issues, to take Krav Maga for his character. Hopefully, it's going to encourage him to describe his actions more, or at least break him out of the: "I hit it!" mentality.

[Medicineman]

Do you use the Shadowrun martial Arts system?

Sure I do.
For some of my Chars its very important. "Meteor" my Troll Pit fighter had some very interesting (and entertaining for the other Players)
fights using Combinations of Maneuvers.
My new Char "Skyblade", a Swordmage, is inventing his own Martial Arts for his Blade
and I also invented Sinanju ( Remo the Adventure begins (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )for two other Chars
Martial Arts and its Maneuvers can add a Helluva Flavour

Hough !
Medicineman

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

... and I also invented Sinanju ( Remo the Adventure begins (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ) for two other Chars. Martial Arts and its Maneuvers can add a Helluva Flavour

Hough !
Medicineman

So, Medicineman, how old are the characters? After all, it only takes 20 years to learn the Art of Shinanju (assuming that you are qualified to learn the art in the first place), 17 if you cut corners. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And yes, Paul, We use them too (The Martial Arts rules)...

[Ol' Scratch]

Do you use the Shadowrun martial Arts system?

I don't disallow it, but do find it to be way too annoying to bother with and way too fan boy/wannabe for my tastes. So far as I can tell my players could care less about the Martial Arts system, vaguely acknowledging it exists

But what about at your game? At your table?

I do to an extent. I got rid of the martial arts qualities, changed some of their perks into maneuvers while getting rid of the majority of them, and then let the players buy maneuvers as "mini qualities" as they see fit at 2 BP a pop. We don't use limits on positive qualities either, so if you really want to buy a ton you can. No skin off my back if that's how you wanna spend your points.

Since that's all they really are -- cheaper positive qualities -- it's not really a big deal. Compare Off-Hand Training (2 BP) to Ambidexterity (5 BP). The latter basically does everything the former does, but applies to any suitable melee weapon or firearm while the former is limited to just one skill.

[Crazy Ivan]

I allow it, and it does make for some interesting moments, but it really does add a lot of flavor to "I hit, I miss" when it is described. Even without it, it adds background and story to a character (some styles anyways).

As far as the gripe about players remarking about what the styles let you do in real life, I laugh as well. Being trained in several styles and fought against my fair share of others, I know that there is no logical playing system on this planet (or any other) that really can showcase that intricacy of style (or combination of styles) against another style beyond the benefits of the martial arts "advantages" and associated maneuvers.

[Dez384]

Personally, I love getting creative with martial arts and maneuvers. I feel that they give melee a nice edge.

However, as Loch reminds me every time his troll fires that minigun, melee capability doesn't mean anything if the martial artist can't get close enough to fight.

[Glyph]

The pros:

Gives melee combat more options and flavor.

Adds more of a tactical element to melee combat.


The (potential) cons:

Be aware that it does raise the power level of melee. It also raises the cost of being good at melee, making what is usually a niche role even more expensive.

There are a few problematic maneuvers and combos. The GM might want to house rule a few things, and watch out for cheesy attempted rules exploits from players.

The styles and maneuvers don't always match that well. I would probably recommend that you let the players pick the martial arts and maneuvers that they want, then call it what they want. In other words, if someone gets two levels of Arnis de Mano and one level of Sangre y Acero to get +2 DV to edged weapons and the ability to do damage on a disarm, and wants to call it "Elven blade mastery", that would be fine with me.

[Loch]

Personally, I love getting creative with martial arts and maneuvers. I feel that they give melee a nice edge.

However, as Loch reminds me every time his troll fires that minigun, melee capability doesn't mean anything if the martial artist can't get close enough to fight.

Hey, it's not my fault all combats take place in massive rooms with vaulted ceilings and nary a chest-high wall to be found... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[ggodo]

As far as the gripe about players remarking about what the styles let you do in real life, I laugh as well. Being trained in several styles and fought against my fair share of others, I know that there is no logical playing system on this planet (or any other) that really can showcase that intricacy of style (or combination of styles) against another style beyond the benefits of the martial arts "advantages" and associated maneuvers.

The best one I've seen was Tae Kwon Do's +1 to to knockdown. Every taken a full sidekick from someone trained and roughly your size? You fall over about as often as not. +1 to charging flavored as Jumpkicks. That I'll allow on rule of cool, but 13 years of training and I cannot explain to you why it makes you better at fighting two guys. Also, Hapkido is more similar to the grappling martial arts. It's about holds and limb breaking. It is very different from Tae Kwon Do.

[Medicineman]

So, Medicineman, how old are the characters? After all, it only takes 20 years to learn the Art of Shinanju (assuming that you are qualified to learn the art in the first place), 17 if you cut corners. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

...

One is an Elf
the Other the son of a Sinanju Sensei (his Mother is Japanese and he works for the Japanese Secret Service and his Mission is to keep an Eye on the Megacons from a Runners Point of View, but psssst, thats his Dark Secret ). and He's (IIRC) only Level 1
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

with an Offtopicdance
Medicineman

Looking down
Hey,You've got Mail (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

One is an Elf
the Other the son of a Sinanju Sensei (his Mother is Japanese and he works for the Japanese Secret Service and his Mission is to keep an Eye on the Megacons from a Runners Point of View, but psssst, thats his Dark Secret ). and He's (IIRC) only Level 1
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

with an Offtopicdance
Medicineman

Heheheh.... Cool.

Just a note, though. Sinanju is a Korean Art, not Japanese. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
With a Cultural Dance?

[Paul]

It's interesting to see how many of you equate the Martial Arts system with "Descriptive".

[DamienKnight]

It's interesting to see how many of you equate the Martial Arts system with "Descriptive".

Its not like its impossible to imagine an interesting fight without them, but there are some neato moves that you just cant do without martial arts maneuvers. Its so much more fun to throw one guy into another and have rules for it, than just winging it and saying, 'Sure, you had a good roll, yeah I guess the guy could probably get knocked into the other'

Having an array of styles and maneuvers makes martial arts more interesting.

[LurkerOutThere]

Honestly the current SR implementation of close quarters combat still borns any martial arts system. I see what their going for but we've literally reached a point where martial arts are a non viable concept for anyone but a hyper specialist adept.

[Paul]

..but there are some neato moves that you just cant do without martial arts maneuvers.

Hmmm. You mean from a mechanical stand point?

[MK Ultra]

I go pritty much the same was as glyph. I allow mixed martial arts and the player can pick the name. They can do what the rules say, not what they think a user of a specific art could do - if they didn´t pick the right qualities / maneuvers to reflect this, then the character is just not as advanced, or specialised in a different way. I don´t think it is too unbalancing (safe for some adept/cyber munchkin combos maybe - i´m not such a min-maxer, it never came up), as it has planty of restrictions (mostly guns (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ).