First time poster here, my apologies if I'm putting this in the incorrect location.

I'm attempting to create a character that doesn't cast spells but would be able to protect the party fairly well from magic. The purpose is for use in an otherwise completely mundane party so the party doesn't get curb stomped the first time an NPC mage casts improved invisibility at force 5 with 5 successes or decides to overcast manaball at the party. I'm okay with the character concept being an adept, mystic adept, or magician as needed to accomplish this, they will just know 0 spells (including useful stuff like mana barrier). I'd generally like to stay away from things like the background count modification negative quality to accomplish this.

A few questions:

Is this concept even possible?

Has this concept already been covered somewhere that I could reference?

Can an adept use the counterspelling skill or do you at the least need to be a mystic adept with at least 1 point assigned to magic (non-PP stuff)? Or is it only available to full magicians?

From my understanding there is the magic resistance positive quality, the 2 metagenetic qualities, the adept magic resistance power, counterspelling, mentors that help with counterspelling, counterspelling foci, mana barrier, shielding initiate power, and wards that can help with not getting hurt by spells. Is there anything else that is mobile that could aid in that? (I'm not thinking of trying to combine all of these rather I want to know what all tools are available to go with the concept so I can choose a few from a list)

Are there any completely mundane means for protecting against magic like improved invisibility, spirit concealment, overcast combat spells, mind control, etc? A few ideas were motion sensors, ultrasound, and things along those lines.

Any advice would be appreciated.

There is, in fact, a Null-mage concept somewhere on these threads. But, since it's creation there have been updates.

In my opinion what you want to create this null-mage is to make a Mys. Ad, Magician's way. Since you won't be casting spells/summoning, you don't need to worry about how many dice those tests would recieve, so you can split it up nicely to add to your Adept powers. However, if you want to use counterspelling to dispell, you will still need those dice.

On to powers: Definitely want Magic Resistance at the highest level you can take it. Other choices include iron Will and Piercing Senses, which work against specific spell types, but do stack with Magic Resistance to prevent you from being fooled. You'll also want as many levels as you can of Sorcerous Parry, found in "Ways of the Adept". I'll explain that later. You may want to get Astral Perception, too, but that is up to you.

Skills: Counterspell is a given, as you'll want it to undo spells already cast, or to prevent spells from taking effect. This is where Sorcerous Parry comes in, as it is basically Improved Ability (Counterspell), and augments the counterspell skill. Since you aren't casting, I would recomend taking Banishing. This will allow you to do something against spirits, either as an Attack of Will, or as a straight Banishing test. You may want to pick up Assensing and one or two melee skills if you get Astral Perception, as those will help in other times, and allow you to do something offensive against any mages who might be on site to provide spirit assistance. They'll generally be out of your effect, but options can be nice.

@rlor
Well, you need to buy magician and get as much magic as you need to be able to use counterspelling in Areas with BC.
So about 2 or 3 should do.
So you end up with 15+10 (or 20)+ 24 (Skill 6)=49-59BP
You may add some aspect magician or a mentor spirit or some specs etc...

But honestly it will be a waste of BP...

Anything's possible! And don't let any one deter you from telling a good story! I'd sit down with your GM and discuss how you envision the character, and then it sounds like the "Null Mage" concept (I admit I haven't read any of those threads) mentioned by HH would be a good start.

Arcane Arrester + Astral Hazing with low Essence = a solid anti-magic character who doesn't need to be a magician himself. One of my favorite characters has this combo (reflected in a lost soul motif) and he's a lot of fun. In a group with nothing but mundane characters, you can even get away with a higher Essence which allows you to protect a few of them, too. Just be wary if you ever do gain an Awakened member or otherwise have to deal with them on a regular basis. They won't be happy with your presence.

If you just want a counterspelling expert instead, that's easy enough to do. You'll want to initiate as soon as you can and pick up Shielding and Reflecting (though I tend to prefer Absorption myself). Going the Mystic Adept route just to get Spell Resistance is a waste. If you're going to spend points on Magic and being a magician, at least be a magician and just focus on spells that protect or counter the effects of other spells (Armor, Barrier, Aspected Mana Static, Spirit Barrier, etc.). Spirits with Magical Guard are better and more versatile than Spell Resistance anyway. And if you go with a possession tradition, they can buff your stats to boot. Aptitude: Counterspelling, a Counterspelling Focus (which is dirt cheap; with Restricted Gear you can get a force 5 one for 25,000 nuyen and 5 BPs), and a Mentor Spirit such as Adversary are good investments, too.

Going Gnome, Fomori, or Changeling is a given either way unless you have your heart set on a specific race. Arcane Arrester is virtually a must-have if you really want to make sure someone doesn't get a spell off on you, especially if you're going to focus on counterspelling to boot. Pixies aren't too bad of a choice either; that natural Concealment power they have, combined with things like Ruthenium Polymers and/or Improved Invisibility, means you can be a secret little ninja counterspeller with really high Mental Attributes.

Are there rules on hiring spirit services? That would be an easy way to protect a mundane group. Your team just hires a spirit with magical guard. You could hire one for a night or day mission, or could you get bound ones too..? so it will hang around longer if need be?

There are the calling rules. If your GM is nice, you may be able to find an Anima free spirit who likes to collect real money (I see no reason spirits shouldn't be able to at least use tech screens and manual keyboards to get nuyen) who may lend you it's services for a time. Or you can pay for a loaned service from a magician Talismonger. I doubt that would be cheap, though.

Yeah ... I'm sure in older editions there was a spirit hiring price guide... but damned if I can find it now, and I couldn't see anything in SR4a or Street Magic on it... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

I was actually going to suggest being a Free Spirit, and just focusing more on Spirit Powers than spells. Granted, being a magician


Also, sadly, magical guard doesn't work like guard, in that a spirit can just sustain it indefinitely on a remote service. It works like normal counterspelling, so they have to be there in person.

That being said, there are a few ways to do this.

Be a Mystic Adept, take counterspelling. Kick it up to 9 with the the special power of The Magicians Way.
Be a Spell Knack using the Improved Spell Knack optional sidebar thing.
Another form of gaining counterspelling through being a Magician or Free Spirit.
Play a Dzoo-nu-qua or Fomoraig to gain access to magical guard.
Astral Hazing has already been put forth.
Get Arcane Arrester. Whether its by being a Gnome, Fomori, or Surging, it helps a lot, especailly when combined with other methods of spell defense
The Magic Resistance Quality.
Dareadrenaline and an activated Pain Editor raise your natural defense pool against mana spells: Resist with Willpower+bonuses(usually counterspelling)
Boost your Body up. Being an ork or troll is good, Physical spells are resisted with Body+bonuses.(as above). Sadly, ware that boost willpower and body are two that are incredibly hard to come by in the current rules.
Be a Cyborg at start, rely on object resistance, and use Redundant Process Manufacturing(War!) to raise it as high as you can. (this is actually possible, but will take ALL of your money, and you will have to scratch-convert a vehicle to be your body)
If you have Counterspelling, specialize it, but pick wisely, and keep in mind that you ALWAYS get your own counterspelling dice in defense, whether you're aware of a spell or not. Combat spec will save your bacon when the stunbolts come, Manipulation protects you from a whole wide range of effects - including Save or Lose's like Control Thoughts. Health is probably a bad choice, unless you plan on Counterspelling buffs off of other casters.(dispelling sustained spells). Arguably, the best specialty is Spell Defense(using the FAQ ruling that the core book list of specs are not the only specs), but you won't be able to dispel other casters effects as easily.
Supplementary: Find a way to astrally percieve, as it lets you spot magic MUCH more easily, and gives you a not insignificant bonus on the 'spot a spell being cast'(4a 179, Noticing Magic) test. Part of defending against spells is geeking the caster first, and that means spotting him.

Mix and match methods as necessary.
Guessing by what the Op wants, a Fomori Mystic Adept is probably the way to go. Namely, because it opens up a bunch of advanced counterspelling options involving foci and metamagics(shielding, reflection). This method has the bonus of not needing to devote -any- magic to the Casting side of being a mystic adept, because you hardly ever roll Magic+Counterspelling: You only add your Skill to various defense pools when using Spell Defense, your magic rating doesn't really matter. This in turn lets you put all your magic towards being an adept(just paying 5bp for the priviledge of being able to buy Counterspellling), and adepts are plenty good.

Where does this build stand on spirits? Is summoning kosher, does it need to defeat enemy spirits?

The defensive mage of our group would offer Counterspelling 5 (Combat +2) plus Shielding 5 to everyone on the team. What do you want to achieve by not casting yourself? The only way to make use of that decision is keeping magic low, but getting 1-3 spells and minimal spellcasting would still be worth it with magic 2.

This sounds like a cool character, and Udoshi's build sounds like the way to go. I would also second the Magician's Way. Astral Perception is nice because it allows you to create wards (not cast barrier spells, mind you) and stuff. If you don't want to spend PP on it, consider using Deepweed. It gives you +1 Willpower, as well.

A spirit even materialized use astral perception, which does not allow to read a screen - you just assense the shape of the screen, not what is displayed on it.

If you have a massive willpower, you may want to pick up a level of Banishing. Not because its good(stunbolt is better), but because you use it for Attacks of Will.
Then again, there's also killing hands. As a Fomori, you already have Reach and good Strength. It may be worth considering going Unarmed adept. Between Martial Arts(+3 max),Critical Strike, penetrating strike(not as good as critical strike for the same price) and and Troll strength you can actually hit people really hard. Since The Magicians Way lets you borrow another Way's list of discounted powers, you may want to strongly consider borrowing The Warrior's Way list. I would point out that Mystic Adept(10), an Adept Way(10), and 3 levels of martial arts fits perfectly in your quality allowance.(personally, I would lean towards picking up some other unique bonuses than flat damage, like kung fu's better charge) A Mentor Spirit may also be a good choice, though many of them are meant for casters and summoners. Of them, Cat gives a bonus to Gymdodge(or infiltratio) and Mountain helps Counterspelling, as does The Adversary. If you like Perception, and it IS nice, Owl is probably your best bet.

Though you haven't told us anything else about the character you want to play, besides being immune to magic. If you're trying to make this character a face, for example, this isn't going to be the way to make it. A little more detail on what you have in mind would be nice.



Pretty sure spirits have regular senses, like sight and hearing. Most spirits have access to some form of Improved Senses(thermo, low-light), and other text passages(synesthesia, I'm looking at you) refer to looking through the eyes and ears of spirits. The rules text in the free spirit description that prevents them from using AR at all is basically the devs writing the book having an arguement(NO SPIRITS ON THE MATRIX!!!), and carrying it over into the rules instead of resolving it before publishing. Stupidly, as written, the restriction means that a spirit just flat can't out percieve any Electronic projection. Meaning they can't even open their cell phone/commlink to look at the time.(lcds are electronic). Or check their account balance. Or read text messages. Or any host of things that spirits have demonstrated the capability to do in Shadowrun before. (even Buttercup has a commlink, right?)

However, its dumb, and we've decided at our table that there is a difference between Physical and Electronic projections - it started with the one free spirit in the group deciding to be and old-school flatscreen movie buff, because ancient reel-based movie projectors are something he can see and enjoy. That, and its just dumb that a spirit requires a metahuman interpreter to do anything on the future internet, ever, because they can never see it themselves.

How about this to protect a mundane: he pays a magician or gets his team mage to do a "long term binding" (p.94 Street Magic) on a spirit capable of Magical Guard and voila - the mundane has a spirit capable of counterspelling following him around for a year and a day. I guess it's easy enough to overcome - just kill the spirit? Also hmm I don't know if the spirit could go back and forth to the astral plane in order to avoid mana barriers and so forth?

Where does it say this? I'm not doubting it might say it, but if it doesn't, then I would rule otherwise, after all, the metaplanes use the physical plane rules, including cyberware, and astral forms (and as such astral space) don't exist there.

I wonder if you could get somewhere useful by focusing on the Mana Static spell? For one thing, it's an amazing way to blow up spirits, since there's no roll to resist it and they pop at 0 force.

So would this group seek out trouble with mages? If not what good would the anti-mage be when the party goes against threats with no casting component?

To answer a couple of questions posed:

The fluff behind the character is one that has a strong distaste for magic, would rather see it disappear from the world than exist in any form. The character is scared of the magical power he possesses and chooses to siphon it to anti-magical abilities. Their prejudice is not so strong that they hunt down any magical creature/metahuman that they meet (they're not going to shoot Mr. Johnson if he's a mage etc). The character doesn't want to learn spellcasting and wants to protect his team mates and himself from magic while taking out magical threats if possible. My general thought process was a character that would play like a street sam or adept with the ability to counteract spellcasting, so they can still fare well in a firefight or sneaking through a building, just not be the best at it in the group.

I realize that the concept is no where near optimal in general and in the anti-magic concept department as well. I tend to play with people that don't optimize much at all so I'm not concerned with the character's strength relative to the rest of the party.

As to getting NPC help... the GM is not one where that would be worthwhile.

I think that enough possibilities were listed out here that I can build a strong anti-magic style character (within the general "power-level" of the party and gameworld that the GM has created) and still stay true to the fluff I had planned. Thanks for all the help, I appreciate it.

So what will the character bring to the team when not stopping spells?

A gun... and enough dice to use said gun about as well as the street sam.

A great perception check (yay adept powers) to observe the situation whether it is noticing some object or seeing the concealment masked chameleon suit wearing assault team sneaking up behind us.

A decent infiltration check.

I'm not really worried as >50% of the runs have involved magic so far and if that percentage began to decrease I don't think any of the players at the table would be saddened.

And as fast? I've often noticed there are only the quick and the dead.

Decent enough infiltration to tag along, do it alone, or only one who can?

I'm a bit surprised those are the backup skills. I usually notice the face and magic go well together; and if the rest of your party is anything like what I usually see a face would be well needed and useful 90% of the time.

Same number of IPs as everyone else, 3.

Enough to tag along.

We already have a face and a few that can do it in a pinch.

We also have hacking and rigging covered, the only thing we didn't already have covered was a way to deal with magic.

@rlor
If you are attacked by mages go for a full mage. Any "anti-mage" will be less effective in dealing with them if they start using their brains.
An anti-mage character after the SR rules is only an option if your games sees few magic and critters. If you have to deal with such threads you probably need a mage.

I tend to be the one that gets saddled with playing the magical utility character that has a magical solution to everything in games. I'd personally find it more interesting to not play that concept in this case.

Currently I'm giving the GM the benefit of the doubt and hoping that he just wants to give a variety of opposition as opposed to using the foreknowledge of our characters' abilities to throw hard counters we have no way of defeating. If its the latter then the issue has nothing to do with character/party design and has a great deal more to do with GM/Player expectations. If I was playing in a group where the average player would need more than their fingers to count the number of Shadowrun sessions they've played in their life then I could see a point in trying to pick the optimal solution.

Why?

No, really, why? Serious question. Why do you need a mage to counter a mage?

Counterspelling shuts down spells. Perception shuts down stealth-casting so you can geek the mage first. High Ap weapons, any Ap-half attack, pretty much any elemental attack, and, oh yeah, killing hands shuts down spirits by bypassing itnw. If you have access to counterspelling you have access to banishing too.

The idea isn't to out-mage a mage, but to cockblock a one from doing anything shit-wrecking to you.