First time poster here, my apologies if I'm putting this in the incorrect location.

I'm attempting to create a character that doesn't cast spells but would be able to protect the party fairly well from magic. The purpose is for use in an otherwise completely mundane party so the party doesn't get curb stomped the first time an NPC mage casts improved invisibility at force 5 with 5 successes or decides to overcast manaball at the party. I'm okay with the character concept being an adept, mystic adept, or magician as needed to accomplish this, they will just know 0 spells (including useful stuff like mana barrier). I'd generally like to stay away from things like the background count modification negative quality to accomplish this.

A few questions:

Is this concept even possible?

Has this concept already been covered somewhere that I could reference?

Can an adept use the counterspelling skill or do you at the least need to be a mystic adept with at least 1 point assigned to magic (non-PP stuff)? Or is it only available to full magicians?

From my understanding there is the magic resistance positive quality, the 2 metagenetic qualities, the adept magic resistance power, counterspelling, mentors that help with counterspelling, counterspelling foci, mana barrier, shielding initiate power, and wards that can help with not getting hurt by spells. Is there anything else that is mobile that could aid in that? (I'm not thinking of trying to combine all of these rather I want to know what all tools are available to go with the concept so I can choose a few from a list)

Are there any completely mundane means for protecting against magic like improved invisibility, spirit concealment, overcast combat spells, mind control, etc? A few ideas were motion sensors, ultrasound, and things along those lines.

Any advice would be appreciated.

There is, in fact, a Null-mage concept somewhere on these threads. But, since it's creation there have been updates.

In my opinion what you want to create this null-mage is to make a Mys. Ad, Magician's way. Since you won't be casting spells/summoning, you don't need to worry about how many dice those tests would recieve, so you can split it up nicely to add to your Adept powers. However, if you want to use counterspelling to dispell, you will still need those dice.

On to powers: Definitely want Magic Resistance at the highest level you can take it. Other choices include iron Will and Piercing Senses, which work against specific spell types, but do stack with Magic Resistance to prevent you from being fooled. You'll also want as many levels as you can of Sorcerous Parry, found in "Ways of the Adept". I'll explain that later. You may want to get Astral Perception, too, but that is up to you.

Skills: Counterspell is a given, as you'll want it to undo spells already cast, or to prevent spells from taking effect. This is where Sorcerous Parry comes in, as it is basically Improved Ability (Counterspell), and augments the counterspell skill. Since you aren't casting, I would recomend taking Banishing. This will allow you to do something against spirits, either as an Attack of Will, or as a straight Banishing test. You may want to pick up Assensing and one or two melee skills if you get Astral Perception, as those will help in other times, and allow you to do something offensive against any mages who might be on site to provide spirit assistance. They'll generally be out of your effect, but options can be nice.

@rlor
Well, you need to buy magician and get as much magic as you need to be able to use counterspelling in Areas with BC.
So about 2 or 3 should do.
So you end up with 15+10 (or 20)+ 24 (Skill 6)=49-59BP
You may add some aspect magician or a mentor spirit or some specs etc...

But honestly it will be a waste of BP...

Anything's possible! And don't let any one deter you from telling a good story! I'd sit down with your GM and discuss how you envision the character, and then it sounds like the "Null Mage" concept (I admit I haven't read any of those threads) mentioned by HH would be a good start.

Arcane Arrester + Astral Hazing with low Essence = a solid anti-magic character who doesn't need to be a magician himself. One of my favorite characters has this combo (reflected in a lost soul motif) and he's a lot of fun. In a group with nothing but mundane characters, you can even get away with a higher Essence which allows you to protect a few of them, too. Just be wary if you ever do gain an Awakened member or otherwise have to deal with them on a regular basis. They won't be happy with your presence.

If you just want a counterspelling expert instead, that's easy enough to do. You'll want to initiate as soon as you can and pick up Shielding and Reflecting (though I tend to prefer Absorption myself). Going the Mystic Adept route just to get Spell Resistance is a waste. If you're going to spend points on Magic and being a magician, at least be a magician and just focus on spells that protect or counter the effects of other spells (Armor, Barrier, Aspected Mana Static, Spirit Barrier, etc.). Spirits with Magical Guard are better and more versatile than Spell Resistance anyway. And if you go with a possession tradition, they can buff your stats to boot. Aptitude: Counterspelling, a Counterspelling Focus (which is dirt cheap; with Restricted Gear you can get a force 5 one for 25,000 nuyen and 5 BPs), and a Mentor Spirit such as Adversary are good investments, too.

Going Gnome, Fomori, or Changeling is a given either way unless you have your heart set on a specific race. Arcane Arrester is virtually a must-have if you really want to make sure someone doesn't get a spell off on you, especially if you're going to focus on counterspelling to boot. Pixies aren't too bad of a choice either; that natural Concealment power they have, combined with things like Ruthenium Polymers and/or Improved Invisibility, means you can be a secret little ninja counterspeller with really high Mental Attributes.

Are there rules on hiring spirit services? That would be an easy way to protect a mundane group. Your team just hires a spirit with magical guard. You could hire one for a night or day mission, or could you get bound ones too..? so it will hang around longer if need be?

There are the calling rules. If your GM is nice, you may be able to find an Anima free spirit who likes to collect real money (I see no reason spirits shouldn't be able to at least use tech screens and manual keyboards to get nuyen) who may lend you it's services for a time. Or you can pay for a loaned service from a magician Talismonger. I doubt that would be cheap, though.

Yeah ... I'm sure in older editions there was a spirit hiring price guide... but damned if I can find it now, and I couldn't see anything in SR4a or Street Magic on it...

I was actually going to suggest being a Free Spirit, and just focusing more on Spirit Powers than spells. Granted, being a magician


Also, sadly, magical guard doesn't work like guard, in that a spirit can just sustain it indefinitely on a remote service. It works like normal counterspelling, so they have to be there in person.

That being said, there are a few ways to do this.

Be a Mystic Adept, take counterspelling. Kick it up to 9 with the the special power of The Magicians Way.
Be a Spell Knack using the Improved Spell Knack optional sidebar thing.
Another form of gaining counterspelling through being a Magician or Free Spirit.
Play a Dzoo-nu-qua or Fomoraig to gain access to magical guard.
Astral Hazing has already been put forth.
Get Arcane Arrester. Whether its by being a Gnome, Fomori, or Surging, it helps a lot, especailly when combined with other methods of spell defense
The Magic Resistance Quality.
Dareadrenaline and an activated Pain Editor raise your natural defense pool against mana spells: Resist with Willpower+bonuses(usually counterspelling)
Boost your Body up. Being an ork or troll is good, Physical spells are resisted with Body+bonuses.(as above). Sadly, ware that boost willpower and body are two that are incredibly hard to come by in the current rules.
Be a Cyborg at start, rely on object resistance, and use Redundant Process Manufacturing(War!) to raise it as high as you can. (this is actually possible, but will take ALL of your money, and you will have to scratch-convert a vehicle to be your body)
If you have Counterspelling, specialize it, but pick wisely, and keep in mind that you ALWAYS get your own counterspelling dice in defense, whether you're aware of a spell or not. Combat spec will save your bacon when the stunbolts come, Manipulation protects you from a whole wide range of effects - including Save or Lose's like Control Thoughts. Health is probably a bad choice, unless you plan on Counterspelling buffs off of other casters.(dispelling sustained spells). Arguably, the best specialty is Spell Defense(using the FAQ ruling that the core book list of specs are not the only specs), but you won't be able to dispel other casters effects as easily.
Supplementary: Find a way to astrally percieve, as it lets you spot magic MUCH more easily, and gives you a not insignificant bonus on the 'spot a spell being cast'(4a 179, Noticing Magic) test. Part of defending against spells is geeking the caster first, and that means spotting him.

Mix and match methods as necessary.
Guessing by what the Op wants, a Fomori Mystic Adept is probably the way to go. Namely, because it opens up a bunch of advanced counterspelling options involving foci and metamagics(shielding, reflection). This method has the bonus of not needing to devote -any- magic to the Casting side of being a mystic adept, because you hardly ever roll Magic+Counterspelling: You only add your Skill to various defense pools when using Spell Defense, your magic rating doesn't really matter. This in turn lets you put all your magic towards being an adept(just paying 5bp for the priviledge of being able to buy Counterspellling), and adepts are plenty good.

Where does this build stand on spirits? Is summoning kosher, does it need to defeat enemy spirits?

The defensive mage of our group would offer Counterspelling 5 (Combat +2) plus Shielding 5 to everyone on the team. What do you want to achieve by not casting yourself? The only way to make use of that decision is keeping magic low, but getting 1-3 spells and minimal spellcasting would still be worth it with magic 2.

This sounds like a cool character, and Udoshi's build sounds like the way to go. I would also second the Magician's Way. Astral Perception is nice because it allows you to create wards (not cast barrier spells, mind you) and stuff. If you don't want to spend PP on it, consider using Deepweed. It gives you +1 Willpower, as well.

A spirit even materialized use astral perception, which does not allow to read a screen - you just assense the shape of the screen, not what is displayed on it.

If you have a massive willpower, you may want to pick up a level of Banishing. Not because its good(stunbolt is better), but because you use it for Attacks of Will.
Then again, there's also killing hands. As a Fomori, you already have Reach and good Strength. It may be worth considering going Unarmed adept. Between Martial Arts(+3 max),Critical Strike, penetrating strike(not as good as critical strike for the same price) and and Troll strength you can actually hit people really hard. Since The Magicians Way lets you borrow another Way's list of discounted powers, you may want to strongly consider borrowing The Warrior's Way list. I would point out that Mystic Adept(10), an Adept Way(10), and 3 levels of martial arts fits perfectly in your quality allowance.(personally, I would lean towards picking up some other unique bonuses than flat damage, like kung fu's better charge) A Mentor Spirit may also be a good choice, though many of them are meant for casters and summoners. Of them, Cat gives a bonus to Gymdodge(or infiltratio) and Mountain helps Counterspelling, as does The Adversary. If you like Perception, and it IS nice, Owl is probably your best bet.

Though you haven't told us anything else about the character you want to play, besides being immune to magic. If you're trying to make this character a face, for example, this isn't going to be the way to make it. A little more detail on what you have in mind would be nice.



Pretty sure spirits have regular senses, like sight and hearing. Most spirits have access to some form of Improved Senses(thermo, low-light), and other text passages(synesthesia, I'm looking at you) refer to looking through the eyes and ears of spirits. The rules text in the free spirit description that prevents them from using AR at all is basically the devs writing the book having an arguement(NO SPIRITS ON THE MATRIX!!!), and carrying it over into the rules instead of resolving it before publishing. Stupidly, as written, the restriction means that a spirit just flat can't out percieve any Electronic projection. Meaning they can't even open their cell phone/commlink to look at the time.(lcds are electronic). Or check their account balance. Or read text messages. Or any host of things that spirits have demonstrated the capability to do in Shadowrun before. (even Buttercup has a commlink, right?)

However, its dumb, and we've decided at our table that there is a difference between Physical and Electronic projections - it started with the one free spirit in the group deciding to be and old-school flatscreen movie buff, because ancient reel-based movie projectors are something he can see and enjoy. That, and its just dumb that a spirit requires a metahuman interpreter to do anything on the future internet, ever, because they can never see it themselves.

How about this to protect a mundane: he pays a magician or gets his team mage to do a "long term binding" (p.94 Street Magic) on a spirit capable of Magical Guard and voila - the mundane has a spirit capable of counterspelling following him around for a year and a day. I guess it's easy enough to overcome - just kill the spirit? Also hmm I don't know if the spirit could go back and forth to the astral plane in order to avoid mana barriers and so forth?

Where does it say this? I'm not doubting it might say it, but if it doesn't, then I would rule otherwise, after all, the metaplanes use the physical plane rules, including cyberware, and astral forms (and as such astral space) don't exist there.

I wonder if you could get somewhere useful by focusing on the Mana Static spell? For one thing, it's an amazing way to blow up spirits, since there's no roll to resist it and they pop at 0 force.

So would this group seek out trouble with mages? If not what good would the anti-mage be when the party goes against threats with no casting component?

To answer a couple of questions posed:

The fluff behind the character is one that has a strong distaste for magic, would rather see it disappear from the world than exist in any form. The character is scared of the magical power he possesses and chooses to siphon it to anti-magical abilities. Their prejudice is not so strong that they hunt down any magical creature/metahuman that they meet (they're not going to shoot Mr. Johnson if he's a mage etc). The character doesn't want to learn spellcasting and wants to protect his team mates and himself from magic while taking out magical threats if possible. My general thought process was a character that would play like a street sam or adept with the ability to counteract spellcasting, so they can still fare well in a firefight or sneaking through a building, just not be the best at it in the group.

I realize that the concept is no where near optimal in general and in the anti-magic concept department as well. I tend to play with people that don't optimize much at all so I'm not concerned with the character's strength relative to the rest of the party.

As to getting NPC help... the GM is not one where that would be worthwhile.

I think that enough possibilities were listed out here that I can build a strong anti-magic style character (within the general "power-level" of the party and gameworld that the GM has created) and still stay true to the fluff I had planned. Thanks for all the help, I appreciate it.

So what will the character bring to the team when not stopping spells?

A gun... and enough dice to use said gun about as well as the street sam.

A great perception check (yay adept powers) to observe the situation whether it is noticing some object or seeing the concealment masked chameleon suit wearing assault team sneaking up behind us.

A decent infiltration check.

I'm not really worried as >50% of the runs have involved magic so far and if that percentage began to decrease I don't think any of the players at the table would be saddened.

And as fast? I've often noticed there are only the quick and the dead.

Decent enough infiltration to tag along, do it alone, or only one who can?

I'm a bit surprised those are the backup skills. I usually notice the face and magic go well together; and if the rest of your party is anything like what I usually see a face would be well needed and useful 90% of the time.

Same number of IPs as everyone else, 3.

Enough to tag along.

We already have a face and a few that can do it in a pinch.

We also have hacking and rigging covered, the only thing we didn't already have covered was a way to deal with magic.

@rlor
If you are attacked by mages go for a full mage. Any "anti-mage" will be less effective in dealing with them if they start using their brains.
An anti-mage character after the SR rules is only an option if your games sees few magic and critters. If you have to deal with such threads you probably need a mage.

I tend to be the one that gets saddled with playing the magical utility character that has a magical solution to everything in games. I'd personally find it more interesting to not play that concept in this case.

Currently I'm giving the GM the benefit of the doubt and hoping that he just wants to give a variety of opposition as opposed to using the foreknowledge of our characters' abilities to throw hard counters we have no way of defeating. If its the latter then the issue has nothing to do with character/party design and has a great deal more to do with GM/Player expectations. If I was playing in a group where the average player would need more than their fingers to count the number of Shadowrun sessions they've played in their life then I could see a point in trying to pick the optimal solution.

Why?

No, really, why? Serious question. Why do you need a mage to counter a mage?

Counterspelling shuts down spells. Perception shuts down stealth-casting so you can geek the mage first. High Ap weapons, any Ap-half attack, pretty much any elemental attack, and, oh yeah, killing hands shuts down spirits by bypassing itnw. If you have access to counterspelling you have access to banishing too.

The idea isn't to out-mage a mage, but to cockblock a one from doing anything shit-wrecking to you.

Being too specialized can promote such actions by the DM, but then one shouldn't try to be immune to anything a DM can throw, such is impossible. Have you considered being an adept instead of magician, buying full points in magic resistance, and counter-spelling with a Remington 700 (or other rifle with high damage)? This would cost less for the antimagic part, not require noticing the mage to be effective(or at least to not get slammed).

I like the high perception, that can be most useful.

The main thing you need a mage to cover is Astral Perception. If you don't have a way to detect and deal with astral people, you have a huge, huge problem because it means spirits (or projecting mages) can completely bypass your physical perception - meaning you're super easy to ambush and catch and whatnot. Spirits are handy for this because you can set them to keep watch, but anyone with Astral Perception can do this.

There's a big difference between being a specialist and being a one-trick pony. The proposed character specializes in dealing with hostile magics, but he can handle himself in a gunfight, he is fairly tough and can take a beating as well as the next guy (not to mention dishing one out), he pays attention to his surroundings, and he can sneak around fairly well. That makes him a valuable specialist, especially since his team needs someone who can deal with magical threats. If all he could do is counterspell, then he'd be a relatively worthless one-trick pony. But he isn't, and there's definitely nothing wrong with that.

Pixie adepts make good spotters. They get astral perception for free, and the enhanced perception power works for assensing as well as perception.

Playing a pixie would really lead to one-trick pony syndrome. Very good inflitration and spotting, but that's about it.

I guess you could make an assassin type pixie mystic adept....hmmm

Pixies can be good at covert intrusion and theft - a few tech skills added to the stealth is all they need. And I played in a game with such a pixie who also had a monofilament garrote, so the assassin angle is definitely doable as well.

I'm a little upset that it seems the only way to be anti-magic is to be an adept or mystic adept, have astral perception & buy a lot of magical protections. Seems the only way to counter magic is with more magic.

I know of the magic resistance quality for mundanes, but it doesn't help against spirits. I would love to see an anti-spirit quality of the same nature. Maybe Spirit Haze (5 BP per rating, max rating 4)... the quality gives the PC an extra die per rating to resist a spirit power, & a PC can never benefit/be a willing subject from allied spirit powers.

SR only gave us hammers and fingers. I do seem to remember some rule interpretations that made those with tons of cyberware resistant to many spells.

@Saint Hallow
It is even worse. The only way to counter a mage is to be a mage. It is as simpe as that. Even an adept is goint to get ******* in very nasty ways, dealing with a full mage (if the mage is thinking)

(Well, mystic adapt with astral perception is a mage...)

I don't buy that load of bs. Mages die just fine when they loose initiative and take 10 rounds of APDS from a LMG in the face. And if you want to start getting into circumstances, well circumstances can be made to favor the gun bunny if the gun bunny is smart.

@Daylen
Well, how do you shoot somebody who is only present on the astral Plane?
Have fun with that.
He still is able to send spirits to kick your ass...

And yes, that would be the most likely security response because going to a position on the astral space as fast compared to driving there.
Thats actually one of the main advantages of a magical response team. They have a reaction time of under 1 min for a 1000 mile radius.

With no worry of wards or magical threats the mage has to screw up so the street sam/drone can target him with a LMG, much less hit him.

With a decent selection of spells the mage should be able to determine when and where a fight will happen against pure mundanes with spells like extended range detect life. They have plenty of spells/abilities to avoid detection by mundane means and they can chain summon spirits till the cows come home with decent skills and drain resistance tests or just dump 4 bound spirits on the mundane party.

Not to mention if the mage wins initiative (or strikes from being magically hidden) and overcasts stunball/manaball (think those are the right spells) he can feasibly waste the entire party with his attacking dice pool being 2-5 times the size of the defender's die pool and probably only take 1 or 2 points of physical damage at worst from it. And yes, sustaining spells hurt his die pool but with some drugs and foci he can easily sustain 8+ spells before he even gets close to only having a 50/50 shot of "missing" with a direct damage spell. Not to mention all the other crazy spells that don't need to touch your damage track to cause you to lose.

The best part from the mage's perspective is he doesn't have to even be present for the fight and there is no reasonable way to track him back to his body mid-combat with mundane means.

Finally its not going to be the mundane party versus just a mage, its going to be the mundane party versus a bunch of other mundanes and a mage (who if he's smart won't make his presence known until the first set of actions are completely finished and the battle line is drawn unless he's in a position to just 1 shot the entire party).

You'd have the same issue if a rigger was fighting the party with a horde of drones and no one in the party even owned a commlink or way to scan for wireless signals. You need some electronic tools to be able to do more than fight the rigger to a draw and you need some magical tools to be able to defeat a half-way intelligent mage.

Well, how do you send spirits who is 500 yards away that you don't know about?
Have fun with that.
He still is able to send big bullets to blow your brains out...

How's the mage to protect himself

Again you're using bs circumstances, which can be flipped the other way very easily.

Again you are simply giving the circumstantial bonus to the mage. In most cities detect life is about as useless as it gets. "I detect life" "its everywhere". If the parties are equal then there is an extra person on the team without the mage, they should also have someone sitting in the shadows with something potent, Preferably something he can use and not give away his position such as a suppressed rifle. I'm not sure what parties you are familiar with, but I have never seen a mage than can 1shot a party. That implies the opposing party sucks balls, or the mage is worth far more BP.

The post was started with the idea of dealing with an NPC mage + their party getting the drop on the party and generally controlling the fight. It is not a question of PC mage + mundanes versus PC mundanes in which there is a level playing field. The simple matter is that mage can multiply the effectiveness of the rest of the NPCs greatly when the other team has no magical support or anti-magic of their own.

Assume the party members have 4 willpower each. That gives them a 10 damage track. The mage with a magic of 6 overcasts stunball at force 11. He rolls 15 dice (with a max of 11 successes), each party member rolls 4 dice (or 8 if they have maxed magic resistance). We'll say the party gets very lucky and the mage only gets 1 net success on each of them. The stunball has what, an 11 meter radius? It does 12 damage (there are no further resistance checks). The party falls unconscious. The mage then has to resist around 5-6 physical drain. Even if he rolls 0 successes he's still conscious and can calmly walk around with a pistol and put a bullet in the brain of each party member. If he's worried about pain editors he can just take 1 more physical damage to make his attack physical.

A starting mage can easily get that many dice (and many more). In fact he can probably split his dice pool and drop 2 force 11 stunballs if he needs to target different areas and still have a 50/50 shot of taking out a party.

Most of that is dependent on the magician knowing he's going to be fighting a mundane in some kind of duel. Magicians don't walk around "fully buffed" 24/7, and if they do the GM isn't doing his job by demonstrating just why that's a stupid thing to do. Surprise, in particular, is the biggest tool in a mundane's arsenal when dealing with a magician. And if it is some kind of silly dueling scenario, you can't assume the mundane character is just going to stroll right up to the magician and say "hi, please kill me." He's going to play smart. Sniper rifles, drones, and stealth can easily turn the tide against a magician. Especially if the mundane knows how to stay out of range of any detection spells, which really only matter in such a nonsensical scenario anyway.

Regardless, awakened characters aren't the super end-all be-all group of archetypes in the game. I've played plenty of sleepers who could and have taken them out with minimal problem. Heck, the one I mentioned in my first post in the thread (who technically isn't mundane I guess, but he's definitely no magician or adept and lacks any type of Magical Active Skill) specializes in magical threats.

I never said they were the super end all be all. Rather that as the OP we were having major issues dealing with teams that had mages where we were not when they were composed of mundanes. We don't have the mission to "kill x mage" we have a mission to steal an item or pacify an outbreak etc in which unknown to us there may be a magician character lurking about. Generally if that magician character has a few seconds to prepare then he can make the run much harder for us than the average street sam will because we don't have enough dice to resist his spells or perceive through decent infiltration+concealment.

Edit - The character thanks to the people offering advice (yours included) will now accomplish this. Given our game, the new character design will make an ambush by a decent mage of equal danger to an ambush by a decent street sam. I disagree with Daylen who seemed to propose that we were not at any disadvantage at all in our games taken A) I was there playing in them and B) Mundane + Magic is better than just Mundane.

1 mundane character created via regular chargen vs a mage created via regular chargen. Both are 400 BP. The fighting arena is a 3 story warehouse. Neither person can leave the building without killing the other. 1st floor has 15 foot high ceiling, with tons of plasteel crates filled with sand, garbage & a mix of organic/inorganic matter, creating a maze. 2nd floor has offices with scattered furniture, some overgrown indoor plants, scattered supplies of ammo, water bottles, medkits, electronics gear & even an office drone or 3 that travel on wheels carrying food or other heavy items. 3rd floor is a totally open space. Both are dropped/enter the building at the same time at different entrances.

If you were to lock a mundane runner vs a mage in that place, it looks like the mage is going to win 8 out of 10 times from what I've seen & heard so far.

I do not know what you are getting at. An astral mage is able to see the auras of living beeings and he is able to tell his spirits to kick their asses.
While the mundane would need to finde the physical body of the mage. That sucks....

Or if you do not like it, take spells like shapechange and the squirrel of death.


Yes, as soon as the mage as no chance to prepare is going to have problems. Some of those might just be solved by summoning a big, bad spirit to get concealment or something like that...


Unfortunatly this is not true. With some net hits you know a lot of every single living beeing in the radius. That sucks hard, I know. But RAW this spell means "I go to through the cities and know what you are doing"...

It sounds like you don't want to have to make a magical character just to deal with one problem and it also sounds like your GM is going "I need to challenge them, but thinking up a new challenge would be hard. Here face another mage! You should have made magical characters!"

The dual natured plant life in Street Magic might be useful to you.

Have you considered using Glowmoss? It senses astral disturbances and spellcasting then glows. It works like the magic sense adept power and would be a fast easy way for mundanes to get some magic detection.

You might be able to carry around a cloud of FAB III in a jar to unleash on spirits or mages that give you trouble. Or just see if you can get your characters to be carriers somehow.

Haven Lily could be used to weaken other spellcasters (though not by much) or spirits in the area to make them easier to deal with. Maybe you carry a self contained planter case for them with your team.

You might also be able to argue to a biofiber layer in your armor to offer magical protection. Though that's something you'd have to work out with your GM. (there might be something like that in Arsenal for all I know).

The problem is that a lot of the dual natured plant stuff is vague in terms of area and actual effect, so you'd have to discuss it with your GM.

thorya:
Good points on those, thanks. Up until about the time I made this thread none of the players had access to any of the books past SR4A which really had no materials for mundanes to use (had considered the biofiber armor idea but hadn't brought it up to the GM yet). I'm going to make an effort of looking through the books for those and see if the party can get some or all of them.

In actuality I didn't get the anti-magic character ready in time for the game so I just rolled a generic magician. I tend to be pretty good with playing mages in games (speaking in relative terms with the people I play with, not trying to say I know what I'm doing in comparison to all Shadowrun players) and as expected our party's capabilities about doubled in the runs we've done since then. This is even having to deal with some magical defenses on the other side. Even something as simple as the concealment and movement powers have greatly altered the party's dynamics not to mention now being able to roll 2 dice pools to resist NPC spellcasting. I'm on the fence about switching characters now but death isn't too uncommon so probably with a few months I could bring the anti-magic character into play.

There are a bunch of different responses that mystic adepts can use here.
1) Turn on astral perception. Stunball.
2) Turn on astral perception. Declare counterspelling.
3) Call up your own bound spirits, and send them back at him. bound spirits are nice because he'll only be able to deal with one.
4) I've seen this trick used. Passenger spell + Watcher spirit lets someone see the astral without needing anything.
5) Mana static.

I'll let you in on a little secret involving the astral-super speed.
It doesn't mean shit.
You know how you deal with someone who can move a thousand times faster than you at the speed of thought, and TRIES to reason that it will let him dragonball Z his way out of anything you do? How do you deal with that?
Delayed actions, natch.
What?
Delayed actions. Due to how they work, you can hear what other people are going to do (must be declared during step 3a, in which the acting character for the current Action Phase says what he's doing. The character who has the delayed action gets to decide if he wants to go before, after, or simultaneously with the action phase he's interrupting.
The thing about the astral jetfighter is that it doesn't really change anything rules-wise. You don't gain any bonus to initiative or extra actions for moving at astral speeds, or the ability to dodge anything because you're so fast. They still follow all the usual rules for the system, including the golden rule of Line of Sight for magic.(spirits get around this slightly, but if an astral mage wants to cast at a dual natured defender when they turn astral perception on..?)
So yeah. Delayed actions let you deal with an astrally harassing mage either as they cast at you or before they move away. The mana barrier spell, by the way, is fantastic for this.

A good friend of mine came up with a fantastic use of Glomoss. You see, it comes in Ratings. The range of the glomoss goes up with the Ratings.
So you basically make your own custom Glowand, mixing ratings from 1 up to as high as you can go(6 at start, though there is no listed cap, and it is -cheap-).

Arranging the highest -rated mosses at the tip of the want, and marking your device down with range-markers, you can make a detector that lights up the CLOSER magic phenomena get to you. The end will light up as far away things pass by, and if there is a spirit -right next- to you in astral, the very base will be lit up. Its an absolutely fantastic way of getting a bit of an astral warning system without sticking your head it in.

No one really has a chance without a chance to prepair.

Everyone seems to assume only the two parties involved would be within some large expanse of nothing. This is not universal. Most runs I've been on have bystanders and plenty of humans around to make finding the specific problem ones a bit more difficult if they don't want to be found. I don't know of any spell called, "detect someone who might want to kill me if he knew me"

The scenarios that are getting put forth seem to be SHTF type, I don't really see how a party is any better or worse off with or without a mage and with or without magic opposition. Having opposition riggers send in armored and well armed drones would have the party just as fubar. If the party is hit with a stunball, why not hit them with a rocket? Salvo of grenades? Heck a good sniper can destroy a party darn well. Having someone to be able to counter a mage is nice, but like anything else, its not required. If the party screwed the pooch then puppies are on the way whether there is a magical counter or not.

And yes it is true that detect life is useless in many cases. It doesn't tell you who you want to look for, just what is there. In fact it even says in the rules "In a crowded area, the spell is virtually useless, picking up only a blurred mass." Its not the "I know everything spell".

If they have a counterspeller then they can have a more reasonable chance to resist a spell sort of like how if they wear armor they have a more likely chance not to die when shot by a gun. Having armor is obviously superior to not having armor when faced by an guy using an Ares Predator. It might not help you enough or in certain cases be useless to what you're facing. You might survive the Ares Predator shot with 0 armor but why not actually spend the nuyen to buy some decent armor if you tend to get shot at often.

I think it makes sense at a party level to devote 5-10% of their resources (a decent % of BPs of 1 character) to double or triple their resistance to magic if it is proving to be an issue just like I think that the party should devote some of their resources to armor, chemical protection, firewalls, ECM, ECCM, etc if they are worried about bullets, chemicals, hackers, and drones.

The simple fact of the matter is that the NPCs are using magic to circumvent our ability to detect threats and are thus getting the drop on us. With the ability to counteract that then they can no longer do so with impunity as we now have better than a 0% chance to detect them. This may not be a problem in the games you play in, I have not been discussing your game, merely stating the issues with the game I am in an effort to seek some aid. I'm not making assumptions rather I'm just pulling from the encounters we've been faced with so far as a party.




That is an awesome idea.