For materializing, that 'could' work - it certainly makes some sense for some spirit-types. Personally, I find it hard to believe that there'd be no displacement of air when a Force 8 Earth Spirit dematerializes, though - maybe that's just me.

Logically, anything that isn't specifically described as not abiding by the rules of physics would probably abide by them, so since there is no mention of spirits not displacing air (or other substances), I'd say that they likely do - both when moving and when materializing and dematerializing

Will a spirit materializing in a filled bathtub displace the water in it?

If no, that implies that the spirit and other matter can coexist in the same spot, or that all matter present where a spirit materializes somehow becomes part of that spirit (or transmuted into it, maybe?). If so, what would happen when said spirit leaves the tub and dematerializes elsewhere? Will the water re-appear there, or in the tub, or will it stay in the tub when the spirit moves?

If yes, then it would be quite a leap of faith to not assume that the spirit displaces the gas in air.

I'm happy to go with either one. Even assuming spirits displace their environment when they materialize (can they materialize underground? Or while you're scuba diving?), they don't have to do it fast enough to cause a noise or shockwave. Or, they could. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think - and wow is this not supported by anything in the rules - that a spirit will displace the matter that's there, and will refuse or be unable to materialize into something it can't displace. But there's no more support for this than that they integrate the matter they materialize into, although...I hope they don't materialize inside me.

But again, I don't think it has to make noise, because they'd have some seconds to materialize, and you can move a decent amount of air in that time. [Whether they can materialize in water is another question entirely. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ]

All passion could be defined as unnecessary. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) In all seriousness, I did try to preface my post by saying I wasn't trying to be offensive in my disagreement.

I am sorry if I misread the tone of your post, and his (Hers? I just realized I have no idea if you're even a dude or a chick.) one of the things the internet loses is the various subtle nonverbal cues we'd get in a normal conversation. It was not my intent to cloud the discussion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No, seriously. Why is everyone doing this wrong today? Act wounded, and then Yerameyahu can call you on it, and then everyone can gang up on him. If there's no meta-discussion, we have to talk about Shadowrun. Get with it, people. I can't want this for you!

Hehe, quite. I meant that, by my lights, your zeal for going beyond the RAW *led* you to misread our comments. Not that you need to be Spock. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Pish tosh, 3278; how could people gang up on me? I'm the soul of reasoned discussion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Unless someone can pull up a rules quotation, I think we can all agree with Yerameyahu that there is no RAW on how noticable spirits manifesting or materializing are. This is a gap in the rules here, so basically it will all come down to GM discretion.

The way I would play it is as follows. For both Manifestation and Materialization I would require a Perception check with a threshold of 6-F (as per spells), with modifiers as I would deem appropriate. Manifestation would be purely visual, while Materialization would be multi-sensory as appropriate to the spirit type. From a game balance perspective I would not allow a spirit to use concealment while materializing (although it could turn on that power the action after materializing), as I think it only fair that PCs and NPCs alike get a chance to react in whatever way they choose before getting clobbered.

Since materialization takes a complex action, it's pretty fast - appearing isn't likely to cause much noise because of displacing matter though; disappearing is more likely to be audible.

There is a rule in Cyberpirates (pg.161) that states that: "some spirits may not be able to manifest physically under water." There's also mention of underwater astral terrain being bright because of an abundance of life, thus affecting both astral perception and astral movement, and that earth elementals are subject to the same penalties as characters in under water combat. In all previous editions of SR there's been plenty of water-based nature spirits that could be materialized under water.

The changes to conjuring in SR4 complicates matter a bit, but there's a section in Arsenal (pg.171) dealing with spirits under water, speaking of the dangers for fire spirits; saying that air spirits may travel under water usually as large air bubbles, and that water spirits are -4 to Perception to spot under water. No where is it mentioned that spirits can't materialize in water, though, which imo implies that they can.

Materialized, spirits are physical beings and as such very likely subject to the laws of physics except as noted (immunity to normal weapons, unaffected by gravity).

If one suggests that they do not displace matter where they appear and disappear even though they become physical beings, it opens up a whole new can of abusable little worms, and so it is a lot 'safer' and more logical to have them displace air, water, and any other displaceable matter present where they materialize, as well as rule that they can't materialize somewhere where they can't fit.

Hmm. It sounds like spirits do displace, and generally can materialize in water, but can we say *not* dirt, and (obviously?) nothing solid like rock. I'm okay with some kind of density threshold, I guess?

A complex action is long enough that, without doing the physics, I'm happy to still allow materializing and de-materializing to proceed 'smoothly', causing no *POP*. If you want to slightly weaken spirits (and who doesn't?), it seems fine to me to house-rule a nice sound/shockwave effect. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Here's a crazy thought: not that I particularly care, because I only care inasmuch as "it happens", but who says the only two options are displacement of matter or integration of matter? How about transferrence of matter? It could either be temporarily put in the spirit's home metaplane in exchange for the spirit - held in stasis or something like that to explain why it's not suddenly on fire, when you summon a fire elemental. Or maybe it gets stored "elsewhere", in the sense of Exalted's "elsewhere" - it goes to the metaplane of Storing Shit Displaced From the Physical World During Manifestation.

At our table, I'd take elements into account, too, since the imbalance wouldn't be a problem for us: I'd let Earth elementals Materialize inside dirt, with allowable density proportionate to Force. And I while I'd let a Fire elemental Materialize under water, it'd take damage based on depth. I'm sure other things would come up.


I definitely think it'd make a sound, but not necessarily a loud one. It's compressing the air around it, and that's going to make noise, even done slowly, but three seconds is a long while, depending on the size of the spirit. Water is a whole 'nother issue, of course.


That'd be fine, except for when the spirit Materializes inside dude's face, or coincident with the location of the maglock. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Personally I'd disallow materializing in anything denser than the spirit could easily move through - at most a loose pile of sand I think. Materializing inside dense material - if at all possible - would probably cause more damage to the spirit than to the material, and wouldn't be something a spirit would subject itself to.

If the material contains living matter that can't easily 'move away', the spirit wouldn't be able to get into it to materialize either.

As far as the sound/shockwave goes, I think a materializing spirit with enough intelligence (and who doesn't want to mess with it's summoner) could likely do it in as stealthy a manner as possible, not causing much more than a waft of air in the immediate area and maybe a slight sound effect depending on the nature of the spirit - while disrupting a spirit is more likely to be accompanied by a pop or bang.



Yeah, I considered that - while a cool idea, it's open to abuse (as in: materialize in that cloud of NeuroStun gas, follow me and dematerialize in that dudes face... Plus any number of other weird things.)

Well, my point was that any over-explanation of shit is open to abuse. If matter is integrated, then the maglock/face ceases to exist as a maglock/face, and the door opens or the guy dies. If it's displaced, the maglock may suffer damage, or the guy will have to check for knockdown.

Over-explanation of shit like manifestation will lead to players learning to exploit whatever rationalization you've placed on it.

But since faces are living, spirits won't be able to possess the same space in the astral, and since maglocks and walls aren't easily displaced the spirit won't push aside/break them either =)

Depends on the edition, apparently. SR4 appears to allow this, actually.

Astral Forms are not the same as Physical Forms. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well, that's definitely true. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) What do you mean?

So, not everything living has an astral form. Astral forms (spirits, etc.) can 'pass through' living things on the astral, because those things only 'exist' on the physical. That's why biofiber, etc. has to be Dual Natured to block them. Unless you stipulate otherwise (and I think our 'density' rules *mostly* cover it already), you can materialized inside living things.

Personally, I'd just tweak the 'allowable materials/densities' to exclude creatures' bodies… unless it's a Jonah-and-the-Whale thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's true that, as soon as there's a rule, some damned player is going to try and do the maglock or neurostun trick. Bastards. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

I Think that Yerameyahu covered it, but simply, a Spirit can phase through an Astral Form (but not a Dual Natured form) on the Astral, but CANNOT phase through a Living Form/Physical Form in the Physical Realm (any more than a person can do so). The only caveat to that (that I am aware of) is for a Possession Spirit who Merges with the Physical Form when it possesses.

I'm not sure that's quite what I said; basically, mundane living things simply don't block astral in SR4.

I think you didn't quite get it right.
Astral forms such as an astral spirit or projecting mage can move through mundane living things. There is even a test for the mundane for recognizing it (SR4A p. 193)

Dual natured entities cannot pass through either physical or astral entities.

Basically it is like this: as long as you are present on a plane you cannot pass thorugh objects present on the same plane.

Yup. Pretty simple, and the upshot for us here is that we have to stipulate that a spirit can't materialize into living things (maybe a whale's stomach (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ). It seems obvious, but someone would try it as a weapon.

Dammit, just lost my post.

I seem to recall another discussion on Dumpshock some years ago about a related issue, in which it was decided that spirits probably can't manifest unless there is enough space to physically hold them. I.E. Fire elementals cannot manifest inside that jar and make it explode, because that would lead to all kinds of shenanigans. Likewise, they can't manifest inside things that are tough enough to hold them, because you can't pressurize spirits. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Which is what I said (at least I thought I did, anyways). An Astral Form can pass through Mundane living (and Unliving) things, but only on the astral. You cannot do so in the real world. Did I miss something? And yes, I know there is a test for that, though I did not deem it relevant to mention above. Dual Natured Entities do not have an astral Form, unless they are capable of Projecting.

From what I understood, An Astral Form can pass through another Astral Form. Is that not the case? And if so, where does it indicate that.

No, an astral form can't pass through an astral form. That's the whole point, or biofiber (and barriers, and wards) would do nothing. Dual-Natured entities *do* have an astral form, it's simply congruent with their physical form.