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Paul
So we all know it takes a complex action for an astral spirit to manifest. (In fact I think any astral form, but anyways...) But how obvious is that process? Do visibility modifiers affect it? Does it make any noise? Is there a smell?
3278
QUOTE (Paul @ Jan 18 2012, 04:08 PM) *
Do visibility modifiers affect it?

This is an interesting question. It's a psychic manifestation of an astral form; it should have the same impact on the vision irrespective of lighting conditions, which itself would produce visibility modifiers: you'd be able to see it at night even if the light weren't shining on it, but it wouldn't glow [although I always imagine they do], while during the day it would just be a see-through figure against a bright background. Fog and smoke shouldn't affect it, right? Psychic manifestation?

QUOTE (Paul @ Jan 18 2012, 04:08 PM) *
Does it make any noise? Is there a smell?

I would rule that any intelligent astral being would have the choice of whether to make a sound when manifesting, while others would make a noise or not depending on their nature. I like the flavor of some things actually "popping" into existence, or hearing the rumble of distant thunder as a spirit manifests.

There's no indication that manifesting can produce an odor, only sight and sound. For whatever reason.
Yerameyahu
Did you mean Manifest, or Materialize? Sorry, but just checking. smile.gif
Paul
Pretend that I said whatever makes the most sense.
3278
Manifesting is when an astral form makes itself visible and audible - but still not touchable - on the physical plane. Materialization is a spirit power that lets some spirits enter the physical plane [like when you summon an Earth Elemental and then ask him to punch a dude].

Pretty sure you mean Manifesting.
Paul
Actually in this case I think both are relevant to ask questions about. I'm specifically thinking of the game where you guys were bushwhacked by elemental spirits.
Yerameyahu
See, while I was betting he meant Materializing. smile.gif Ha, I win!

I'm not familiar with any rules about special sensory effects of Materialization. Should be subject to normal perception mods.
snowRaven
Materializing would involve a displacement of air - and de-materializing would thus likely involve a pop or 'bang' as air rushes in to fill the void, unless the spirit is slow about it.

Manifesting...not so much. That's more or less a psychic phenomenon.
Critias
It's makes a loud BAMF sound, and is accompanied by a cloud of purplish, sulfur-stinking, smoke, of course.
3278
QUOTE (Paul @ Jan 18 2012, 05:52 PM) *
Actually in this case I think both are relevant to ask questions about. I'm specifically thinking of the game where you guys were bushwhacked by elemental spirits.

Oh, yeah, if you mean Materializing, then nothing I said applies. smile.gif Do you mean in the most recent game, when Atem's character came all up on Earth elemental in the tunnel?

For materializing, visibility modifiers would affect it [it's just becoming physical; there's no psychic phenomena here]. I would rule it could make a sound, but wouldn't have to; if it takes 3 seconds for it to happen, it could happen slowly enough to displace air inaudibly.* And the Materialization process wouldn't make a smell, but the spirit that's materialized might have one, although I'm not sure everyone would see it that way.**

*That said, I personally imagine fire elementals crackling, earth elementals grinding, and so on, unless they're really trying to be quiet, but that's nowhere in the rules, only my imagination.

**I do. I like the idea that, although they're astral forms, they become real [but magical] things, and just as they have texture and color, they have scent and taste. But that view of spirits is also not necessarily supported by canon.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Critias @ Jan 18 2012, 06:09 PM) *
It's makes a loud BAMF sound, and is accompanied by a cloud of purplish, sulfur-stinking, smoke, of course.
That depends on tradition. Materialization might also be accompanied by rainbows fanfares and the smell of lavender. *ducks and hides*

More seriously though, I'd think it be more like ffffffffffft since the materialization should take half a turn (they get 2 IP in the flesh) or 1.5 seconds. Come to think of it, it might also be 0,75 seconds.

@3278: "No Timmy you are not supposed to lick the salt elemental. And forget about drinking the water elemental just because you have a dry mouth."
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (3278 @ Jan 18 2012, 10:17 AM) *
Oh, yeah, if you mean Materializing, then nothing I said applies. smile.gif Do you mean in the most recent game, when Atem's character came all up on Earth elemental in the tunnel?

For materializing, visibility modifiers would affect it [it's just becoming physical; there's no psychic phenomena here]. I would rule it could make a sound, but wouldn't have to; if it takes 3 seconds for it to happen, it could happen slowly enough to displace air inaudibly.* And the Materialization process wouldn't make a smell, but the spirit that's materialized might have one, although I'm not sure everyone would see it that way.**

*That said, I personally imagine fire elementals crackling, earth elementals grinding, and so on, unless they're really trying to be quiet, but that's nowhere in the rules, only my imagination.

**I do. I like the idea that, although they're astral forms, they become real [but magical] things, and just as they have texture and color, they have scent and taste. But that view of spirits is also not necessarily supported by canon.


At our table, for the character I play, all my spirits (They are all some form of Infernal Being, Black Magician and all that) have an Olfactory component (Sulfurous Fumes), althought it may be subdued/subtle. So, I also tend to agree with you on this one. There is a LOT of fluff that I incorporate into the Traditions that I play. Makes it very interesting, at least to me, and generally the others at the table that pay attention to such things.
Adarael
I like Crit's version.

That said, here's what I think:

MANIFESTING makes the astral form as obvious as any roughly humanoid image that glows slightly and is obviously not physically present. So... pretty obvious, but maybe you might not notice at first glance in a crowded area like a nightclub or a Shinjuku streetcorner. I.E. you'd still have to get *some* number of successes on a perception test to notice the fact that something was off.

I think MATERIALIZING, on the other hand, is pretty damned obvious. For one, it takes a complex action, so it's not an instant pop-in: some manner of swirling energies, fading and sparkles, or other measure of magical stuff is involved. What's more, most anything that materializes is immediately obvious as "not normal" - unless it has the Realistic Form power, a Fire Elemental will always be abundantly obvious as something totally not huma - and in most cases this seems to be because spirits manifest as pillars of fire, are surrounded by freezing winds, are THOR, THE GOD OF THUNDER, or just make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up because it's some kind of 10-foot tall wolf.
Ergo, I figure a materializing spirit - unless in a very unusual circumstance - can expect to get everybody's attention in short order. It's possible to be stealthy while doing it - nothing says the earth elemental manifesting in that dumpster over there is automatically detected - but if they were to manifest within view of people, or near enough for their heat/cold/wolfy smell/whatever to be sensed, I suspect shit would get nasty fast.
UmaroVI
The only thing with special rules is casting spells: Perception (6-F) to notice. The obvious solution: spirits can try to materialize quietly with Infiltration (which most of them default on). People notice it with Perception. Why complicate things unnecessarily? Also, the usual rules for noticing things apply - if you materialize right in the middle of a crowd, you get noticed automatically. If you're trying to appear behind someone quietly to thwack them, Infiltration.
Yerameyahu
Like I said, I'm not aware of any actual rules for this. So it's house rules: up to the GM+group (ahead of time, natch), and it's them basically deciding this small aspect of the power level. smile.gif If so, yes, I'd allow an Infiltration test.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Critias @ Jan 18 2012, 10:09 AM) *
It's makes a loud BAMF sound, and is accompanied by a cloud of purplish, sulfur-stinking, smoke, of course.


Only if you have Mutable Form.

Then you can do whatever the hell you want when you materialize

Edit: Also the presence or lack of Realistic Form matters quite a bit in the appearance discussion
Dakka Dakka
Also there is no rule saying spirits displace the air in the location they materialize. The few gas molecules in the volume could simply be incorporated into the spirits materialized solid form. We can only go by what the rulebooks tell us. If they don't mention a pop or other noise, I'd say there is none.
Paul
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jan 18 2012, 02:53 PM) *
We can only go by what the rulebooks tell us.


Everything else you said I could see as a plausible reason to not have noise, but this sentiment bugs me. And I find that I disagree deeply with it. I would have to say at my own table the rule books serve as the base inspiration; and that while they may serve as a rough outline they should not serve as limitations on how we interpret the game. I'm not sure if that makes sense, nor do I expect you to run your table the same way I do-rather I just felt strongly enough to post my own opinion.
Yerameyahu
No, that's silly. You, and everyone, is free to alter or embellish the details of the game, but it's totally obvious that if the rules don't say *anything* about physical and sensory effects of Materialization… then you can't say they do.

You can say, 'I've decided X, at my table'. That's not 'interpreting' the rules, that's *altering* them. Altering is fine, but you have to admit it.

Away from our tables, in this centralized setting, we have to be clear about the *base* rules. You asked an unqualified question in the OP, which automatically means 'per RAW'. Appropriate responses certainly include those of snowRaven and Critias, as long as it's obvious (and it was, but only if you already knew the RAW) that they were suggesting their own house rules/opinions. smile.gif
Dakka Dakka
What I or anyone else does at their respective tables has nothing to do with the statement. I was referring to the RAW. Unless I'm clearly stating that I am referring to personal house rules or my opinion how the game should be played, I'm only talking about RAW. Multiple possibly contradictory house rules are a very difficult ground to base a discussion on.
Paul
I disagree with both of you-not completely, not violently or anything like that. But rather I think it sounds like you're trying to box people in where they don't need to be. Sure the Rules as Written don't mention a noise or smell-that doesn't mean squat. Rules as Written fail to mention a vast swath of subject matter. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist or can't be.

Now I do agree with you Yerameyahu that it is a discussion that happens out of character, away from the table by consensus. And agree with both of you that the Rules as Written are a baseline. But I guess I don't see the Rules as Written as being so unassailable or perfect that they can questioned, or even wrong from time to time.

And for the record, as it stands unless there's a reason (Magical Tradition, circumstances, etc...) there will be no noises or smells, or anything required in my games when a spirit materializes. Sorry if this side tracks the discussion.
Warlordtheft
Just because the book doesn't say it is obvious and immediately noticable doesn't mean it is not. Do you need a perception check to notice the person next to you? I think this is prettymuch how Id handle it. Normally--no, unless the spirit was trying to hide from you (Infiltration, and possibly concealment power). Ultimately what it boils down to is RAW is silent, and it is up to the GM to determine what happens in the situation.
3278
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 18 2012, 09:08 PM) *
No, that's silly. You, and everyone, is free to alter or embellish the details of the game, but it's totally obvious that if the rules don't say *anything* about physical and sensory effects of Materialization… then you can't say they do.

Well, yeah, but that's not at all the same as, "We can only go by what the rulebooks tell us." Look, I get the whole, "in this communal arena, the only shared point of reference we have is the rules," but very early in the thread everyone established that the rules don't say anything about these specific things, so all we have to go on, in that absence is house rules and speculation and what's cool and what's plausible. That's more to go on than "what the rulebooks tell us."

By all means, we should all be clear when we're talking about rules, and when we're talking beyond rules, or about house rules. I think people should be more clear. [Can a brother get a page number or a quotation up in here?] But in a case like this, where the rules obviously don't say anything, what's the matter with filling that gap? Nothing. And you agree, and so does Dakka, and that's all Paul was saying.
Yerameyahu
Except he was saying it with unnecessary passion. smile.gif Dakka Dakka wasn't saying 'only follow the rules and nothing else, ever'. And your response, Paul, persists in the confusion: I very clearly did no 'boxing in' whatsoever. No one said *anything* about 'unassailable'. See?

The thing is, I don't see a place in this thread where we established that the rules were absent. I mean, I *said* so, but there was no agreement before people dove right into fun opinions. So. It's just easier to be clear.
3278
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 18 2012, 10:01 PM) *
Dakka Dakka wasn't saying 'only follow the rules and nothing else, ever'.

I don't know what, "We can only go by what the rulebooks tell us," means, if it doesn't mean that either our conversation, or our gameplay, is dependent upon the rules, and that absent a ruling, we can only speak of the absence of something. Shadowrun doesn't mention whether spirits taste salty, so we can only rule that they don't, and that's an end of it. But it's not an end of it: maybe if we were at a tournament or something, but for our purposes, an absence of rules is just the beginning of conversation!

We all agree about that. We all also agree such conversation should be clearly labeled house rules, or speculation, or canon. Right? Then what are we talking about?
snowRaven
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jan 18 2012, 08:53 PM) *
Also there is no rule saying spirits displace the air in the location they materialize. The few gas molecules in the volume could simply be incorporated into the spirits materialized solid form. We can only go by what the rulebooks tell us. If they don't mention a pop or other noise, I'd say there is none.


For materializing, that 'could' work - it certainly makes some sense for some spirit-types. Personally, I find it hard to believe that there'd be no displacement of air when a Force 8 Earth Spirit dematerializes, though - maybe that's just me.

Logically, anything that isn't specifically described as not abiding by the rules of physics would probably abide by them, so since there is no mention of spirits not displacing air (or other substances), I'd say that they likely do - both when moving and when materializing and dematerializing

Will a spirit materializing in a filled bathtub displace the water in it?

If no, that implies that the spirit and other matter can coexist in the same spot, or that all matter present where a spirit materializes somehow becomes part of that spirit (or transmuted into it, maybe?). If so, what would happen when said spirit leaves the tub and dematerializes elsewhere? Will the water re-appear there, or in the tub, or will it stay in the tub when the spirit moves?

If yes, then it would be quite a leap of faith to not assume that the spirit displaces the gas in air.
Yerameyahu
I'm happy to go with either one. Even assuming spirits displace their environment when they materialize (can they materialize underground? Or while you're scuba diving?), they don't have to do it fast enough to cause a noise or shockwave. Or, they could. smile.gif
3278
I think - and wow is this not supported by anything in the rules - that a spirit will displace the matter that's there, and will refuse or be unable to materialize into something it can't displace. But there's no more support for this than that they integrate the matter they materialize into, although...I hope they don't materialize inside me.

But again, I don't think it has to make noise, because they'd have some seconds to materialize, and you can move a decent amount of air in that time. [Whether they can materialize in water is another question entirely. smile.gif ]
Paul
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 18 2012, 05:01 PM) *
Except he was saying it with unnecessary passion. smile.gif


All passion could be defined as unnecessary. nyahnyah.gif In all seriousness, I did try to preface my post by saying I wasn't trying to be offensive in my disagreement.

I am sorry if I misread the tone of your post, and his (Hers? I just realized I have no idea if you're even a dude or a chick.) one of the things the internet loses is the various subtle nonverbal cues we'd get in a normal conversation. It was not my intent to cloud the discussion. smile.gif
3278
No, seriously. Why is everyone doing this wrong today? Act wounded, and then Yerameyahu can call you on it, and then everyone can gang up on him. If there's no meta-discussion, we have to talk about Shadowrun. Get with it, people. I can't want this for you!
Yerameyahu
Hehe, quite. I meant that, by my lights, your zeal for going beyond the RAW *led* you to misread our comments. Not that you need to be Spock. smile.gif

Pish tosh, 3278; how could people gang up on me? I'm the soul of reasoned discussion. wink.gif
Midas
Unless someone can pull up a rules quotation, I think we can all agree with Yerameyahu that there is no RAW on how noticable spirits manifesting or materializing are. This is a gap in the rules here, so basically it will all come down to GM discretion.

The way I would play it is as follows. For both Manifestation and Materialization I would require a Perception check with a threshold of 6-F (as per spells), with modifiers as I would deem appropriate. Manifestation would be purely visual, while Materialization would be multi-sensory as appropriate to the spirit type. From a game balance perspective I would not allow a spirit to use concealment while materializing (although it could turn on that power the action after materializing), as I think it only fair that PCs and NPCs alike get a chance to react in whatever way they choose before getting clobbered.
snowRaven
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 19 2012, 12:43 AM) *
I'm happy to go with either one. Even assuming spirits displace their environment when they materialize (can they materialize underground? Or while you're scuba diving?), they don't have to do it fast enough to cause a noise or shockwave. Or, they could. smile.gif

QUOTE (3278 @ Jan 19 2012, 01:19 AM) *
I think - and wow is this not supported by anything in the rules - that a spirit will displace the matter that's there, and will refuse or be unable to materialize into something it can't displace. But there's no more support for this than that they integrate the matter they materialize into, although...I hope they don't materialize inside me.

But again, I don't think it has to make noise, because they'd have some seconds to materialize, and you can move a decent amount of air in that time. [Whether they can materialize in water is another question entirely. smile.gif ]


Since materialization takes a complex action, it's pretty fast - appearing isn't likely to cause much noise because of displacing matter though; disappearing is more likely to be audible.

There is a rule in Cyberpirates (pg.161) that states that: "some spirits may not be able to manifest physically under water." There's also mention of underwater astral terrain being bright because of an abundance of life, thus affecting both astral perception and astral movement, and that earth elementals are subject to the same penalties as characters in under water combat. In all previous editions of SR there's been plenty of water-based nature spirits that could be materialized under water.

The changes to conjuring in SR4 complicates matter a bit, but there's a section in Arsenal (pg.171) dealing with spirits under water, speaking of the dangers for fire spirits; saying that air spirits may travel under water usually as large air bubbles, and that water spirits are -4 to Perception to spot under water. No where is it mentioned that spirits can't materialize in water, though, which imo implies that they can.

Materialized, spirits are physical beings and as such very likely subject to the laws of physics except as noted (immunity to normal weapons, unaffected by gravity).

If one suggests that they do not displace matter where they appear and disappear even though they become physical beings, it opens up a whole new can of abusable little worms, and so it is a lot 'safer' and more logical to have them displace air, water, and any other displaceable matter present where they materialize, as well as rule that they can't materialize somewhere where they can't fit.
Yerameyahu
Hmm. It sounds like spirits do displace, and generally can materialize in water, but can we say *not* dirt, and (obviously?) nothing solid like rock. I'm okay with some kind of density threshold, I guess?

A complex action is long enough that, without doing the physics, I'm happy to still allow materializing and de-materializing to proceed 'smoothly', causing no *POP*. If you want to slightly weaken spirits (and who doesn't?), it seems fine to me to house-rule a nice sound/shockwave effect. smile.gif
Adarael
Here's a crazy thought: not that I particularly care, because I only care inasmuch as "it happens", but who says the only two options are displacement of matter or integration of matter? How about transferrence of matter? It could either be temporarily put in the spirit's home metaplane in exchange for the spirit - held in stasis or something like that to explain why it's not suddenly on fire, when you summon a fire elemental. Or maybe it gets stored "elsewhere", in the sense of Exalted's "elsewhere" - it goes to the metaplane of Storing Shit Displaced From the Physical World During Manifestation.
3278
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 19 2012, 05:07 PM) *
Hmm. It sounds like spirits do displace, and generally can materialize in water, but can we say *not* dirt, and (obviously?) nothing solid like rock. I'm okay with some kind of density threshold, I guess?

At our table, I'd take elements into account, too, since the imbalance wouldn't be a problem for us: I'd let Earth elementals Materialize inside dirt, with allowable density proportionate to Force. And I while I'd let a Fire elemental Materialize under water, it'd take damage based on depth. I'm sure other things would come up.

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 19 2012, 05:07 PM) *
A complex action is long enough that, without doing the physics, I'm happy to still allow materializing and de-materializing to proceed 'smoothly', causing no *POP*.

I definitely think it'd make a sound, but not necessarily a loud one. It's compressing the air around it, and that's going to make noise, even done slowly, but three seconds is a long while, depending on the size of the spirit. Water is a whole 'nother issue, of course.

QUOTE (Adarael @ Jan 19 2012, 05:51 PM) *
Here's a crazy thought: not that I particularly care, because I only care inasmuch as "it happens", but who says the only two options are displacement of matter or integration of matter? How about transferrence of matter?

That'd be fine, except for when the spirit Materializes inside dude's face, or coincident with the location of the maglock. smile.gif
snowRaven
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 19 2012, 05:07 PM) *
Hmm. It sounds like spirits do displace, and generally can materialize in water, but can we say *not* dirt, and (obviously?) nothing solid like rock. I'm okay with some kind of density threshold, I guess?

A complex action is long enough that, without doing the physics, I'm happy to still allow materializing and de-materializing to proceed 'smoothly', causing no *POP*. If you want to slightly weaken spirits (and who doesn't?), it seems fine to me to house-rule a nice sound/shockwave effect. smile.gif


Personally I'd disallow materializing in anything denser than the spirit could easily move through - at most a loose pile of sand I think. Materializing inside dense material - if at all possible - would probably cause more damage to the spirit than to the material, and wouldn't be something a spirit would subject itself to.

If the material contains living matter that can't easily 'move away', the spirit wouldn't be able to get into it to materialize either.

As far as the sound/shockwave goes, I think a materializing spirit with enough intelligence (and who doesn't want to mess with it's summoner) could likely do it in as stealthy a manner as possible, not causing much more than a waft of air in the immediate area and maybe a slight sound effect depending on the nature of the spirit - while disrupting a spirit is more likely to be accompanied by a pop or bang.

QUOTE (Adarael @ Jan 19 2012, 05:51 PM) *
Here's a crazy thought: not that I particularly care, because I only care inasmuch as "it happens", but who says the only two options are displacement of matter or integration of matter? How about transferrence of matter? It could either be temporarily put in the spirit's home metaplane in exchange for the spirit - held in stasis or something like that to explain why it's not suddenly on fire, when you summon a fire elemental. Or maybe it gets stored "elsewhere", in the sense of Exalted's "elsewhere" - it goes to the metaplane of Storing Shit Displaced From the Physical World During Manifestation.


Yeah, I considered that - while a cool idea, it's open to abuse (as in: materialize in that cloud of NeuroStun gas, follow me and dematerialize in that dudes face... Plus any number of other weird things.)
Adarael
Well, my point was that any over-explanation of shit is open to abuse. If matter is integrated, then the maglock/face ceases to exist as a maglock/face, and the door opens or the guy dies. If it's displaced, the maglock may suffer damage, or the guy will have to check for knockdown.

Over-explanation of shit like manifestation will lead to players learning to exploit whatever rationalization you've placed on it.
snowRaven
QUOTE (Adarael @ Jan 19 2012, 11:33 PM) *
Well, my point was that any over-explanation of shit is open to abuse. If matter is integrated, then the maglock/face ceases to exist as a maglock/face, and the door opens or the guy dies. If it's displaced, the maglock may suffer damage, or the guy will have to check for knockdown.

Over-explanation of shit like manifestation will lead to players learning to exploit whatever rationalization you've placed on it.


But since faces are living, spirits won't be able to possess the same space in the astral, and since maglocks and walls aren't easily displaced the spirit won't push aside/break them either =)
3278
QUOTE (snowRaven @ Jan 19 2012, 10:45 PM) *
But since faces are living, spirits won't be able to possess the same space in the astral...

Depends on the edition, apparently. SR4 appears to allow this, actually.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (3278 @ Jan 19 2012, 03:58 PM) *
Depends on the edition, apparently. SR4 appears to allow this, actually.


Astral Forms are not the same as Physical Forms. smile.gif
3278
Well, that's definitely true. smile.gif What do you mean?
Yerameyahu
So, not everything living has an astral form. Astral forms (spirits, etc.) can 'pass through' living things on the astral, because those things only 'exist' on the physical. That's why biofiber, etc. has to be Dual Natured to block them. Unless you stipulate otherwise (and I think our 'density' rules *mostly* cover it already), you can materialized inside living things.

Personally, I'd just tweak the 'allowable materials/densities' to exclude creatures' bodies… unless it's a Jonah-and-the-Whale thing. smile.gif It's true that, as soon as there's a rule, some damned player is going to try and do the maglock or neurostun trick. Bastards. frown.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (3278 @ Jan 19 2012, 04:21 PM) *
Well, that's definitely true. smile.gif What do you mean?


I Think that Yerameyahu covered it, but simply, a Spirit can phase through an Astral Form (but not a Dual Natured form) on the Astral, but CANNOT phase through a Living Form/Physical Form in the Physical Realm (any more than a person can do so). The only caveat to that (that I am aware of) is for a Possession Spirit who Merges with the Physical Form when it possesses.
Yerameyahu
I'm not sure that's quite what I said; basically, mundane living things simply don't block astral in SR4.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jan 20 2012, 05:38 PM) *
I Think that Yerameyahu covered it, but simply, a Spirit can phase through an Astral Form (but not a Dual Natured form) on the Astral, but CANNOT phase through a Living Form/Physical Form in the Physical Realm (any more than a person can do so). The only caveat to that (that I am aware of) is for a Possession Spirit who Merges with the Physical Form when it possesses.
I think you didn't quite get it right.
Astral forms such as an astral spirit or projecting mage can move through mundane living things. There is even a test for the mundane for recognizing it (SR4A p. 193)

Dual natured entities cannot pass through either physical or astral entities.

Basically it is like this: as long as you are present on a plane you cannot pass thorugh objects present on the same plane.
Yerameyahu
Yup. Pretty simple, and the upshot for us here is that we have to stipulate that a spirit can't materialize into living things (maybe a whale's stomach smile.gif ). It seems obvious, but someone would try it as a weapon.
Adarael
Dammit, just lost my post.

I seem to recall another discussion on Dumpshock some years ago about a related issue, in which it was decided that spirits probably can't manifest unless there is enough space to physically hold them. I.E. Fire elementals cannot manifest inside that jar and make it explode, because that would lead to all kinds of shenanigans. Likewise, they can't manifest inside things that are tough enough to hold them, because you can't pressurize spirits. wink.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jan 20 2012, 10:22 AM) *
I think you didn't quite get it right.
Astral forms such as an astral spirit or projecting mage can move through mundane living things. There is even a test for the mundane for recognizing it (SR4A p. 193)

Dual natured entities cannot pass through either physical or astral entities.

Basically it is like this: as long as you are present on a plane you cannot pass thorugh objects present on the same plane.


Which is what I said (at least I thought I did, anyways). An Astral Form can pass through Mundane living (and Unliving) things, but only on the astral. You cannot do so in the real world. Did I miss something? And yes, I know there is a test for that, though I did not deem it relevant to mention above. Dual Natured Entities do not have an astral Form, unless they are capable of Projecting.

From what I understood, An Astral Form can pass through another Astral Form. Is that not the case? And if so, where does it indicate that.
Yerameyahu
No, an astral form can't pass through an astral form. That's the whole point, or biofiber (and barriers, and wards) would do nothing. Dual-Natured entities *do* have an astral form, it's simply congruent with their physical form.
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