@Udoshi
If the general rules apply there can't be spirits with magic higher than 6, unless they are free.
This has never been stated.

It has, actually...
A Normal Shadowrunner Mage (Remember, those guys with no less than Magic 5 so they can be useful) can summon Spirits at greater than Force 6 (Up to their Magic x2 remember), right out of the box. There are in canon characters with Spirits at Forces greater than 20.

Remember, a Spirits Magic = Spirits Force, So..... I am pretty sure the game recognizes spirits with magic greater than 6. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

And there are other rules telling you can't have a magic higher 6, unless you have at least one initiation...

And stuff in "runs" is always a bit questionable as are example characters to begin with...

The Red samurai out of the book are not scary at all...

SR is not as bad as some other games in this aspect, where around 50% of all the examples are "illegal".

Player's cannot have magic above 6 without Initiation. Spirits have never followed that particular restriction. Nor have Dragons or Vampires (and probably a few others that I am missing). So, obviously, You are wrong on your assumption.

If you say so... I don't agree with that particularly myself.

Depends upon your DP's, and what is common at your table. None of MY characters actively go out and mess with the Red Samurai or the Tir Ghosts (at least not without a lot of planning, with multiple backup plans for getting out alive). Seem pretty scary to me.

Again, depends upon your perspective.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Yeah, I guess because such restriction only become an issue if you give the race to players...
(Same thing with animals not having augmented max. raitings for attributes. Is not really a big deal, unless a mage transforms into a badger and cast increase attribute on said badger..)

Sure, I guess...
Don't see it as much of an issue, myself, but I guess it could be.
As for animals, well, that is why we have running wild. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Did they get limits there?

I don't know. I do not own it, unfortunately. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Quote your sources.

Spirits work differently than mages. They use Force for basically everything. If a mage summons a force 9 spirit, its going to have a magic of 9. And an edge of 9. And all attributes at 9. As well as most skills.

LOLWOT? I suggest you read the rules again. Udoshi, please ignore him. Any spirit can have a Force higher than 6.

I suspect he's confusing it with... something. I'm just not sure what he's on about. But he's definitely wrong.

- J.

@Udoshi

4a 302: The Physical attributes listed below are used when a spirit Materializes in the physical plane; the minimum attribute is always 1. On the astral plane, spirits use Force for all attribute

I just pulled up the stats for the Yama King from ghost cartels - its force 9 with no initiations, which is clearly greater than 6, so your quotes are pretty clearly superceded by specialist rules dealing specifically with spirits.

Your quote about Mages doesn't really apply in this case. Spirits are spirits first and foremost - some of them happen to also be magicians, but a force 12 bound free spirit that happens to go Free isn't going to magically lose 6 force. Its going to be a force 12 free spirit, that also happens to be a Magician, because all free spirits are.

Irion, spirits can be summoned at any Force but they cannot exceed the Magic rating x2 of summoner.

- J.

@Udoshi
As far as I know are rules above example characters.

The reason is quite obvious: It is easy for an author to miss stuff like initiations.

As a matter of fact, I would use the rules for PC-Free spirits also for NPCs (and give special one a great power or two).
Those rules do work, opposed to the "normal" rules.

Oh, man. This thing as a armor of 14/14 with Force 9. And you give me this one as an example of how the rules WORK?
THAT is the reason you do not take adventure characters to tell you the rules.

And I to not talk about his "Warhammer" which he (after the rules) can also not have. It would be a natural weapon with DV9 and without reach boni. (Unless he would be a great form spirit. But this would change a couple of things...)
Oh and he has neither Karma drain (which is a power all shadow spirits should have) nor any spirit pact. He would have been unable to get Karma in any way.
This spirit follows NO RULES whatsoever.

And just because I am at it. The next entry is about force 4 shedims with essence 6...
Not to mention, that they do not follow the possession rules...
@The Jake
One limit does not prohibit an other limit.
I, for my little part, think that both ways where in discussion.
Thats why I quoted the rules for magic. Those rules actually but a cap on magic 6 and did not cap it with essence.
(And since in SR3 you started with magic 6 and raised it through initiation I think it is possible)

The point is, there is NO RULING otherwise in the book. The only way mentioned to get above the magic 6 is through initiations.
So RAW everything else is capped by 6. The point is, it does not work with some cases but it prevents abuse in others. Some rules really seam to be made for a "cap" on spells other seem to assume at least magic 10.(Used device...)
For example every spell which takes the force into account for the effect gets extreamly powerfull if cast above magic 6. The best example is detect life. Do I get Information about everybody in more than a half a mile radius? An other good one is Powerbolt or any kind of attack spell. A base DV of 6 is "ok", but 12...

We've already discussed this particular point ("Force is measured on the same scale as metahuman attributes (natural 1 to 6)."); there's no reason to think this means *anything* is limited to 6… metahuman attribs certainly aren't.

No, it is just save to assume that the "natural" magic is rated 1 to 6.

Whatever that means. Everything is equally natural. A force 2 focus or spell isn't more natural than a force 7 spell.

@Yerameyahu

If true so the force 7 spell would be off the table.

Well, I do not know.
Maybe this was written by the one guy thinking: Mhm, we should do something to prevent overcasting and dropping force 10 spirits from the astral, because it will turn Shadowrun into magicrun. Maybe. Maybe he thought that the other guys would use a special rule to get over this cap.
Maybe that guy was just told, that everything should be limited to 6 unless really special circumstances.
Well, I do not know.

I just know it is in the book. I can't say it is a broken rule, because actually it does not break anything. It just tunes magic down big time. But mostly it just prevents very stupid munchkin stuff. (Like I get myself an force 10 ally spirit kind of stuff...)

It is indeed a possibility to have rules limiting magic things to 6. I'm just saying *this* rule doesn't do that. If they wanted it to do that, they'd have to define 'natural', and there are so many better wordings for the whole thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) For example: 'Force goes from 1 to 6.' 'Force has a maximum of 6.' Easy.

In SR3, everything metahuman with magic and full essence had 6 Magic. Because that's the natural limit. Augmented magic is Magic+Initiation-Grade Maximum. And Adjusted is Magic-essence.

So you're saying it's a copy error from a previous edition? That's as good an explanation for the nonsense non-rule as any. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And yet, even in previous editions, I could learn a spell at force 12 if I wanted to So....... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah, but spells were different rules back then. Now everything is a bit more in line. So natural magic max =6 might have been just taken over from the last edition.

@Yerameyahu
The point is, what is standing there? Why 1 to 6?
If not to limit magic for what other purpose would it stand there?

My position has always been that the paragraph is a simple confused error. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It doesn't make any sense either way. It manifestly does not limit magic, and it doesn't make sense in English given the definitions available in SR; it means nothing. You could take the paragraph and replace 'magic' with 'explosives', and it would still be merely (uselessly) reiterating that everything in SR has a Rating, 1+.