Hoi Chummers

ive been tweaking my Possesion Mage and found Aura Masking in Street Magic

SM:
New Spirit Powers
The powers listed here are in addition to the normal critter
and spirit powers found on pp. 286–291, SR4.

Aura Masking
Type: M • Action: Free • Range: Self • Duration: Sustained
This power functions as both the initiate powers Masking
(p. 190, SR4) and Extended Masking (p. 60). The spirit uses
its Edge in place of initiate grade. The spirit can also hide the
use of any of its powers on itself within the masked aura. Only
characters who pierce the masking can see the spirit’s use of
spirit powers on itself. A spirit can always attempt to appear
as another form of astral creature (even if not capable of astral
projection), but masking itself as mundane would be entirely
pointless unless it is joined to a physical body or has the realistic
form power.


but no premade Spirit has this power, or can to choose it as optional power.

So now i would like to know if i can give it my Ally Spirit?
Do i have to learn Masking and Ext Masking to give it to him?
Or can i simply choose it at Ally creation (which in my case would be char creation)?

Cause i plan to get only possessed from my Ally and if i can learn him this power from character creation i could learn
masking+ext masking a lot later, which would give me more room for other stuff

Also is there a list which Powers an Ally Spirit can learn?
cause i am interested in a few other to ^^

arrr
seems i overlooked a bit, free spirits can get Aura Masking.
So it seems theres no hope for my ally spirit ^^

I had good luck asking my GM if I could give my ally spirit Aura Masking, because my mage had both metamagics that aura masking duplicates.

Its a bit of a stretch, but it makes sense, especially if you are designing your own spirit from scratch.

I think some Shadow spirit may also come with aura masking built in, but I may be confusing it for Mutable form/Realistic form since I'm working off the top of my head here.

Hmm, interesting question:
Can an Ally-Spirit learn Metamagics at all?

This was covered in the other thread, stahl

Basically yes, but its entirely dependent on optional rules because they can't initiate on their own, and also a pain in the ass because you still have to pay for it.

Ah it was? OK, never mind then!
And yes, of course the summoner would have to pay for the initiation with his karma in addition to the change/improvement he has to pay for everything else he changes on the Ally.

No, no, allies are specifically forbidden from initiations.

You have to find a way to transfer 15 karma to your ally, and then use the optional learning-metamagic-from-a-tutor rules in street magic.

Keep in mind that they will forever have an initiation grade of 0, which really limits the amount of metamagics they can make use of.

Ah, ok, my bad.

That would not be the problem we (we did often change GM position, more or less every one in our group has made GM ) are open for such things,
the problem is i didnt want to take it in the beginning ^^

Do they have a grade 0, or a grade X? It seems like they couldn't make use of that metamagic-learning loophole, based on their fundamental nature.

Optional Rule : Learning Meta Magic
If the gamemaster approves, Awakened characters can
learn metamagic techniques through other methods, in addition
to the one they acquire at each grade of initiation. It costs
15 Karma to learn a metamagic technique outside of initiation.
The maximum number of metamagic techniques that may be
learned is equal to the character’s Magic + initiation grade.

From what i read out of that, u cant learn your Ally any Metamagic.
Cause he would need to Initiate first for learning an Metamagic with the optional Rule.

But theres always the sideway simple talk with your GM he may or may not allow Allys Metamagic

You could just be super nice to it, cop some serious damage and let it go free and hope it sticks around?

- J.

This probably doesn't help, but a Flesh-Form merge for an inhabitation ally spirit would get Aura Masking.

That'd work allright.

- J.

@Stahlseele

No, they can. Several reasons:
1. They can't initiate.
2. They can't earn or get karma.
3. They can't use the learning rules.

An interesting question would be, if ally spirits or summond spirits in general can be of an higher force than 6, since they do not have a way to initiate...


The only way to get aura maskin is the one phlapjack77 mentioned.

False.
Force 6 = magic 6 = 6 possible non-initiation metamagics.



1 is true. Ally spirits are specifically prohibited against initiation.
2 is partially true. They do not earn karma, but you can use tricks to give them karma. Endowment trickery and karma drain is one of them. Street magic has a time consuming karma transfer ritual that takes an hour per point.
3) 3 is false. Ally spirits are Magicians, and definitely Awakened. You may be thinking that you MUST be initiated to learn a metamagic - which is false. Its just that a significant amount of them are useless at grade zero. (like centering! have zero extra bonus dice on your drain tests!)

I never claimed that this is a convoluted, or not-very-worth it method of getting metamagics on spirits, but it IS possible. Just very expensive and time consuming.

Well if MAG>6 is a problem for ally spirits it is a problem for normal spirits as well. They can't initiate either.

You're missing the point.

The limit on outside-of-initiation metamagics has nothing to do with your initiation grade. The only reason that text is worded like it is is to prevent people from acquiring ALL the metamagics at a flat cost - IE, not going up by 3 every time like initiation is.

Per the core book, you can initiate a number of times = your magic, and get a metamagic each time, and there will come a point where you HAVE to raise your base magic if you want to initiate again.
Per the street magic metamagic-tutor rules: "The maximum number of metamagic techniques that may be
learned is equal to the character’s Magic + initiation grade."

Basically your BASIC magic attribute rating becomes slots for metamagics too, in addition to initiations. You are still limited in total power, but it is double what it was before. You probably missed the implication that initiation-granted-metamagics count towards this limit too.

Let me spell it out for you.
If you have a magic of 1, you can pay 15 karma to learn 1 metamagic.
If you have a magic of 2, you can pay up to 30 karma to learn up to 2 metamagics.
If you have a magic of 6, you can learn up to 6 metamagics.
If you have a magic of 6 and an initiation grade of 6, you can learn up to 12 metamagics total. Half must be from initiations.

Initiation isn't a requirement for learning metamagics. Its a side benefit - a really important side benefit - of initiation.
As Stahlgewitter pointed out with his quote, Awakened Characters can do this - that means anything awakened.
Seriously, check out running wild 24 - paranormal critters. Critters with Sapience and Adept/Mysadept/Magician CAN initiate.

Just remember that, yeah, its possible to have smart birds and crap tooling around on the astral metaplanes if they really want.

Why would a spirit need to initiate to be higher than Force 6? I know of nothing indicating that spirits are bound by the same Attribute caps as metahumans.

At the least, Free Spirit PCs are limited to Force 6 unless they Initiate, allowing an increase to Force (and therefore Magic). (Runner's Companion, page 92.)

PC spirits are screwed in so many ways...

As soon as you use the word 'trickery', it becomes hard to accept the suggested 'rules interpretation'.

Nope. Pay attention to the word in addition. Look the word up, if you do not know its meaning.
It more than strongly suggests, that you need at least one initiations. But if this is not enough: It is an optional rule for initiates.
So in order to use this rule, you need to be an initiate.

2)Yeah, Endownment + Karma drain is one way. But I guess there is a reason PCs do not have access to this power.
3) I do not know if they are magicians. Actually I can't find the point, where they get this quality. But all of this does not matter. The only way for an ally spirit to be enhanced (RAW) is for the mage to change his formula. Sorry, but your argumentation is bogus at best. By the same kind of argumentation I might initiate without paying karma. Nobody says I can't.

Yes, by houseruling. But as a matter of fact, everything is possible this way.

@Tanegar
There is also a paragraph in the core book suggesting that magic has a natural limit from 1 to 6.

1) thats exactly what i meant

2) that theres no way in the rules for allys to gain karma shows for me that they are not supposed to gain anything through it.
(like everything i would suggest houseruling cause for me it would make sense that your ally can learn everything u can learn)

3) page 105 Street Magic
"Every ally spirit possesses the Magician quality (p. 79, SR4)
and can be designed with any Magical skills known to its summoner
such as Arcana, Counterspelling, Enchanting, Ritual
Spellcasting, and Spellcasting. Ally spirits, however, can never
use skills from the Conjuration skill group. Ally spirits may not
initiate. An ally inhabiting a vessel may not astrally project."

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Could you explain it?

Mag>6 isn't a problem at all as far as i'm aware. Its a good thing that doesn't have anything to do with prohibiting initiation.

So i'm confused. Could you please explain this mag>6 problem?

@Udoshi
If the general rules apply there can't be spirits with magic higher than 6, unless they are free.
This has never been stated.

It has, actually...
A Normal Shadowrunner Mage (Remember, those guys with no less than Magic 5 so they can be useful) can summon Spirits at greater than Force 6 (Up to their Magic x2 remember), right out of the box. There are in canon characters with Spirits at Forces greater than 20.

Remember, a Spirits Magic = Spirits Force, So..... I am pretty sure the game recognizes spirits with magic greater than 6.

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

And there are other rules telling you can't have a magic higher 6, unless you have at least one initiation...

And stuff in "runs" is always a bit questionable as are example characters to begin with...

The Red samurai out of the book are not scary at all...

SR is not as bad as some other games in this aspect, where around 50% of all the examples are "illegal".

Player's cannot have magic above 6 without Initiation. Spirits have never followed that particular restriction. Nor have Dragons or Vampires (and probably a few others that I am missing). So, obviously, You are wrong on your assumption.

If you say so... I don't agree with that particularly myself.

Depends upon your DP's, and what is common at your table. None of MY characters actively go out and mess with the Red Samurai or the Tir Ghosts (at least not without a lot of planning, with multiple backup plans for getting out alive). Seem pretty scary to me.

Again, depends upon your perspective.

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Yeah, I guess because such restriction only become an issue if you give the race to players...
(Same thing with animals not having augmented max. raitings for attributes. Is not really a big deal, unless a mage transforms into a badger and cast increase attribute on said badger..)

Sure, I guess...
Don't see it as much of an issue, myself, but I guess it could be.
As for animals, well, that is why we have running wild.

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Did they get limits there?

I don't know. I do not own it, unfortunately.

Quote your sources.

Spirits work differently than mages. They use Force for basically everything. If a mage summons a force 9 spirit, its going to have a magic of 9. And an edge of 9. And all attributes at 9. As well as most skills.

LOLWOT? I suggest you read the rules again. Udoshi, please ignore him. Any spirit can have a Force higher than 6.

I suspect he's confusing it with... something. I'm just not sure what he's on about. But he's definitely wrong.

- J.

@Udoshi

4a 302: The Physical attributes listed below are used when a spirit Materializes in the physical plane; the minimum attribute is always 1. On the astral plane, spirits use Force for all attribute

I just pulled up the stats for the Yama King from ghost cartels - its force 9 with no initiations, which is clearly greater than 6, so your quotes are pretty clearly superceded by specialist rules dealing specifically with spirits.

Your quote about Mages doesn't really apply in this case. Spirits are spirits first and foremost - some of them happen to also be magicians, but a force 12 bound free spirit that happens to go Free isn't going to magically lose 6 force. Its going to be a force 12 free spirit, that also happens to be a Magician, because all free spirits are.

Irion, spirits can be summoned at any Force but they cannot exceed the Magic rating x2 of summoner.

- J.

@Udoshi
As far as I know are rules above example characters.

The reason is quite obvious: It is easy for an author to miss stuff like initiations.

As a matter of fact, I would use the rules for PC-Free spirits also for NPCs (and give special one a great power or two).
Those rules do work, opposed to the "normal" rules.

Oh, man. This thing as a armor of 14/14 with Force 9. And you give me this one as an example of how the rules WORK?
THAT is the reason you do not take adventure characters to tell you the rules.

And I to not talk about his "Warhammer" which he (after the rules) can also not have. It would be a natural weapon with DV9 and without reach boni. (Unless he would be a great form spirit. But this would change a couple of things...)
Oh and he has neither Karma drain (which is a power all shadow spirits should have) nor any spirit pact. He would have been unable to get Karma in any way.
This spirit follows NO RULES whatsoever.

And just because I am at it. The next entry is about force 4 shedims with essence 6...
Not to mention, that they do not follow the possession rules...
@The Jake
One limit does not prohibit an other limit.
I, for my little part, think that both ways where in discussion.
Thats why I quoted the rules for magic. Those rules actually but a cap on magic 6 and did not cap it with essence.
(And since in SR3 you started with magic 6 and raised it through initiation I think it is possible)

The point is, there is NO RULING otherwise in the book. The only way mentioned to get above the magic 6 is through initiations.
So RAW everything else is capped by 6. The point is, it does not work with some cases but it prevents abuse in others. Some rules really seam to be made for a "cap" on spells other seem to assume at least magic 10.(Used device...)
For example every spell which takes the force into account for the effect gets extreamly powerfull if cast above magic 6. The best example is detect life. Do I get Information about everybody in more than a half a mile radius? An other good one is Powerbolt or any kind of attack spell. A base DV of 6 is "ok", but 12...

We've already discussed this particular point ("Force is measured on the same scale as metahuman attributes (natural 1 to 6)."); there's no reason to think this means *anything* is limited to 6… metahuman attribs certainly aren't.

No, it is just save to assume that the "natural" magic is rated 1 to 6.

Whatever that means. Everything is equally natural. A force 2 focus or spell isn't more natural than a force 7 spell.

@Yerameyahu

If true so the force 7 spell would be off the table.

Well, I do not know.
Maybe this was written by the one guy thinking: Mhm, we should do something to prevent overcasting and dropping force 10 spirits from the astral, because it will turn Shadowrun into magicrun. Maybe. Maybe he thought that the other guys would use a special rule to get over this cap.
Maybe that guy was just told, that everything should be limited to 6 unless really special circumstances.
Well, I do not know.

I just know it is in the book. I can't say it is a broken rule, because actually it does not break anything. It just tunes magic down big time. But mostly it just prevents very stupid munchkin stuff. (Like I get myself an force 10 ally spirit kind of stuff...)

It is indeed a possibility to have rules limiting magic things to 6. I'm just saying *this* rule doesn't do that. If they wanted it to do that, they'd have to define 'natural', and there are so many better wordings for the whole thing. For example: 'Force goes from 1 to 6.' 'Force has a maximum of 6.' Easy.

In SR3, everything metahuman with magic and full essence had 6 Magic. Because that's the natural limit. Augmented magic is Magic+Initiation-Grade Maximum. And Adjusted is Magic-essence.

So you're saying it's a copy error from a previous edition? That's as good an explanation for the nonsense non-rule as any.

And yet, even in previous editions, I could learn a spell at force 12 if I wanted to So.......

Yeah, but spells were different rules back then. Now everything is a bit more in line. So natural magic max =6 might have been just taken over from the last edition.

@Yerameyahu
The point is, what is standing there? Why 1 to 6?
If not to limit magic for what other purpose would it stand there?

My position has always been that the paragraph is a simple confused error. It doesn't make any sense either way. It manifestly does not limit magic, and it doesn't make sense in English given the definitions available in SR; it means nothing. You could take the paragraph and replace 'magic' with 'explosives', and it would still be merely (uselessly) reiterating that everything in SR has a Rating, 1+.