I don't think there are 'edged weapons' in the SR4 mechanics, but that's not the point either. You can't 'gently' bludgeon someone in the head with a pipe, exactly as you can't 'gently' stab them; they're both Physical (lethal) weapons.

Are his claws sharpened on the backside? Seems more like it would be a good way to knock someone the fuck out.



No, but you can apply blunt-force trauma in a manner that will minimize the risk of lasting internal injury whilst maximizing the disruption to the target's ability to stay coherent. That is, after all, exactly what you're doing when you beat someone with your fists.

That's kind of hard to do with a knife. So while there may not be a game-mechanics distinction between blunt and edged (or piercing, for that matter) weapons, I'd be forced to call in a common-sense override. If someone's willing to pull their punches (metaphorically) with a pipe in order to subdue a guy without crushing his skull, I'll let him. The guy will probably get some physical overflow, but it's better to get a full Stun track and a few P boxes (unless you're a Runner with medical aid only a few minutes away) than dying boxes filled in.

I don't think they need to be. He's got a pretty good swing on him.

Even so, it would still take him more than one backhand, I'd think.

True. But the person would wish it was only one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

ShadowDragon, that's not what you're doing with your fists. Meat fists (naturally) never do Physical, regardless of where/how; lead pipes always do Physical, regardless of where/how.

As for 'pulling punches', that's a totally different mechanic, and it'd be modeled by the Called Shot option I mentioned twice.

But the religious conversion will give a nasty sting! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)



I must say I find the approach of (re)writing / interpreting rules for the player's best interests quite bizarre in this context. In the game world (not to mention the real one) there is no causal link between the ability to relinquish a weapon and the kind of damage it does, so I would quite instinctively categorise it as something for the players to work around not vice versa. It's kinda like letting a PC shrug off the effects of a drug to avoid a penalty because they only took it for the bonuses and it would be unfair after they'd gone to all that trouble and expenditure in getting it. I'm not saying I'd rule against giving them the option (the damage thing, not the drug thing) but am surprised by the arguments presented.

What I will say, though, is that still having skin cannot be a valid argument for giving the player options. It's not a variable element.

Haha, I'm leaving that typo, Aerospider. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

It's not about player options or best interests at all, it's about a hand (even a cyber one) being different from a metal pipe. I'd allow (require) a Nerf-coated metal bar to do stun as well, but the real difference is that your hand is a *hand*. You can control it, you can punch and slap, etc. The person making a 'player interests' argument is ShadowDragon, who thinks weapons can deal Stun if the player has a much lower Unarmed skill. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This was the interpretation my GM decided to go with. I can do an unarmed attack to do stun using a boot or what-have-you, but I don't get the DV bonus of the bone-lacing. This would be similar I guess to a character with a cyberarm choosing to attack with the cyberarm for physical damage, or another appendage for stun damage.

I love this sentence.

The problem with this is that (chances are) the bone lacing isn't in only one arm. The leg you kick with will have it too and if damage of a bare-skinned punch is converted to physical the same should apply to a boot unless it's made out of nerf.

Just take a look at the "improvised weapons" in Arsenal - just beat the perpetrator with a chair, if there is no chair aviable and more perpetrators, pick one perpetrator up and beat the others with him.
(Metahuman Body: BOD/2+2 S)
Or just buy a sap or shock gloves.

That's more a TV/movie trope than RL. It is very difficult to incapacitate someone by applying kinetic energy without causing permanent harm. Choke holds while still difficult will be a better bet.

You may want to notice that you can still do subdual damage with weapons (even edged ones). The only restriction is, it has to be melee. You do not get a bonus for the weapon though and strangely improving your grip is always based on an Unarmed Combat roll.

You're thinking too hard, Aerospider. We know that boots don't do Physical damage, even if they should. AFAIK, even things like steel-toed boots don't exist.

So then explain for me the reasoning that deduces a bone-laced punch must be physical damage but a bone-laced kick must/may not.

Only if that kick is wearing a boot. It's not reasoning, it's just the rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

We know that a normal person wearing any kind of footwear can't do Phys (AFAIK), so footwear must not be able to do Phys. If we think that bone-laced feet wrapped in skin, socks, and boots *do* do Phys, then that's a different (and to me, implausible) conclusion.

Obviously, the fact that melee (inc. unarmed) in SR4 is 'an abstract set of moves'—except when it's not—muddies this issue.

Just take the "Hardliner Gloves" and call them "steel-toed boots" ...

Yes, which is something people have house-ruled in order to (arguably) get kicking weapon foci. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) However, that's the point: if you need 'Hardliner Boots', it implies that normal boots can't do Physical. Why, then, would bone-laced feet do Physical wearing normal boots?

It seems like the determining factor for 'does Physical' is a hard or sharp outer surface. This is why a huge Troll fist only does (mucho) Stun, yet a little beer bottle does Physical. I honestly am not sure how Bone Lacing even does physical through the skin, but presumably it's the knuckles, elbows, etc.? I've always thought that should tear your hands open, but whatever. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Either way, that still leaves plenty of 'nonlethal' areas, especially the palm, heel, and blade of the hand. Given that we're talking about house rules and 'making sense', I can't see why bone-lacing wouldn't allow the person to at *least* choose (Str/2)S.

Obviously, it's a little messier with cyberware. Assuming a full borg, non-synthetic, no soft areas *anywhere* (even skull)… yeah, maybe they don't have that option. I'm still happy with the alternate 'pull punches' rule (Called Shot mechanic, -2 or even -4).

I still think the problem is that SR4 melee is half-abstract, half-specific. Using specific limbs is allowed, which is an issue with various cyberwear, weapons, and Martial Arts, yet a Complex Action melee (again, including unarmed) attack is supposed to be a whole set of moves and strikes.

The little bber bottle does stun damage, until it is broken - then it does physical. (ARS, p.17)

Ha, oops. Pick another, then: Rattan Stick, Pistol butt, potted plant, literally anything except a sap (obviously), a chair (?), or a bottle (which breaks on impact, so maybe that's the reason).

… Does anyone know why using a Metahuman Body as a weapon uses Unarmed? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

because a dev wrote it so XD

no, i really dont have any idea - it should be clubs (if you are a troll and using a human as a weapon)

There are options for doing stun damage. You can grab your opponent's arms and use those (assuming your opponent doesn't also have bone lacing). "Why are you hitting yourself? Why are you hitting yourself?"

High armor also converts physical damage to stun. "Here, I don't want to kill you, so put this form-fitting body armor on. I'll wait."

Do they get protection from Barriers? Hold a piece of cardboard in front of their face and *then* punch them.

I, personally, do not have a problem allowing a person with bone lacing to do stun damage. The reinforcement of bone lacing will allow a normal fist to act in the same manner as a set of brass knuckles or the hardliner gloves. The combat system is abstract enough to allow a combatant to pick a less powered or lethal attack if they wish to do so. I even like the idea of sacrificing the bonus to damage from the lacing.

If it really bothers you you could allow an inverse of the martial arts maneuver that allows a H-T-H attack to do physical damage for a -2 penalty to the attack pool. That might allow the simulation of the extra effort or inconvenience of an attack that is circumventing the enhanced lethalness you have put in your body. The normal combat system assumes you are trying to act in the most effective manner possible, but I don't see why in certain circumstances you might want to be less...effecient.

Another option might be for the player to not roll his/her entire pool on the attack. The attack might still deal physical damage, but the player might choose to limit the maximum effect at the risk of reducing the probability of success. Not necessarily a satisfactory solution but it could work.

Another idea might be to allow stun damage as a "called shot" special effect.

In fact, I have a 2 inch by 1 inch bruise on my forearm from a demonstration two weeks ago about just that - I bruised myself with the blade of a very sharp knife. I will cede that it is fairly difficult to do, and I would imagine tremendously difficult to do so in combat... but that's why you can hold the blade and beat someone with the handle.

Also, the last 20 posts or so basically say some variant of "Yes, do it with a Called Shot of some sort." I just thought I'd point that out for consensus'/completions' sake.