Is there a specific ruling somewhere about a character with bone lacing being able to do Stun damage with his unarmed attacks, or does it have to by physical?

I can make the case from almost any angle. I get why a fist with titanium bone lacing might not be able choose to do Stun, but if the character is kicking someone it seems like it's the boot that's doing the damage. Subduing combat is still an option, so its not impossible for the bone lacing character to do Stun, it's just a different mechanic.

I'm also a little fuzzy on shock gloves. My assumption is you're doing the damage of the glove, even if your unarmed damage is higher (and for a sam with bone lacing, it probably will be). So say you have to hit a lot of people and you go through your ten charges of the shock glove (pesky ninjas), suddenly even though you still have the glove on, you start doing more damage that's Physical rather than the Stun damage you have been doing.

A shock glove attack is, notionally, a special 'touch attack' (with no option to perform a regular unarmed strike at the same time). Yes, this is slightly problematic, but I prefer it to stacking damages (some silly threads about that in the archives; ditto for adepts throwing poisoned exploding anti-theft knives, or beaning people with grenades, etc.).

Bone lacing is not available for only parts of the body, but yes, I can see how a boot would be different. AFAIK, there's no rule that you can choose to deal Stun in that situation (maybe a Called Shot?), but I feel like most GMs would allow it. It's just one of those things that got lost to abstraction and word count, I guess.

The section on Electricity damage says "A wide variety of nonlethal weapons are designed to incapacitate targets with electrical shock attacks, including stun batons, tasers, cyberware shock hands, and similar electrically charged weapons.  These weapons rely on a contact discharge of electricity rather than kinetic energy."

It doesn't say that the weapon cannot or does not also inflict physical thump damage or that the weapon itself would be damaged by too much impact.

You could make the case that a Stun Baton is really a glorified cattle prod and have the option of using the melee hardening mod from arsenal to turn it into a 'whack n shock'. Shock gloves specifically say they are "triggered by impact." not "triggered by lightly brushing the target with your knuckles". Also in 3e, shock gloves specifically did punch and stun damage.

By choosing to tap rather than thump the target, you can gain a +2 touch attack benefit.


My question (sorry to hijack this thread) is that there seems to be an understanding that these electrical stun weapons are resisted by Willpower rather than Body?!
The core rules says:


Have I missed a rule somewhere? I can't find anything in the core rules that says electrical attacks (or for that matter, physical attacks that don't beat the armour level) are resisted with Willpower.

AFAIK, the main idea is to avoid multi-stacking shenanigans. Otherwise, there's literally no reason (except a small fee) that every melee attack doesn't stack on Electrical. For fun examples, you can play Eclipse Phase.

Willpower is used to resist stun damage when it is notated so in the rules (stun spells, for example). Otherwise, you can probably safely assume Body applies.

A character with bone lacing, I would allow to do stun damage either by attacking with a -2 penalty, or by wearing special padding to soften their blows to stun damage. Purely by RAW, you can always either take the Sweep maneuver from Arsenal (which always does stun damage), or use subduing combat. Or if your enemy's impact armor is high enough, it will be converted to stun damage.

Ah, reminds me of a run we had, where we had to take out a hit on ourselves, and we needed a bum (or was this another job?) we could knock out, doctor up, then murder on camera.

No one had any ability to deal stun damage. Physical damage spells, ex-ex ammo, APDS, titanium bone lacing....

Not a single person in the group had the ability to deal stun.

So we beat the hobo over the head with his own hobo bag.

Ahhh...fun times...

The only way for a bone-laced character to deal stun damage is through subdual combat. Note that it only benefits from raw strength, not from the bone lacing bonus.

An adept with Killing Hands and bone lacing can choose to deal stun damage.

Only via a loophole.

You'll want the martial arts maneuver, Sweep. It not only deals stun damage only, but knocks down the victim as well.

I had never considered this before. I always assumed that the fact that cyberlimbs and bone lacing let you do physical damage was more as an addition (ie choose to do stun or physical) rather than only do physical. Maybe that's how it was written in previous editions.

I would certainly rule that a PC could opt to pull his punches and only do stun damage, perhaps with a small penalty (-2 dice) or only doing basic unarmed damage (Str/2)S. I think I prefer the latter option. Yeah, I hear all you rules lawyers out there frothing at the mouth and shouting 'house rule' but the SR rules can be pretty confusing / broken in places so you need to apply some interpretations around your table / thread.

Also melee combat is very abstract so who's to say I didn't just kick him in the junk with my normal steel toecapped boot rather than with my synthetic 'realskin' coated cyberarm. Or do Doc Martens also do physical damage?

The steel capped ones should, but they don't. However, a turn of melee is more than just one kick.

Martial Arts Maneuvers are really your best shot..if you can stomach using MA rules despite their blatant inconsistencies (style advantages stacking..duh).

Does everyone forget about subduing damage? That is stun damage by rules fiat (and not based on STR/2). Bone lacing and cyberlimbs only change the normal attacks.

I think a few people mentioned that already. I do think the OP question ('can you choose to do normal Stun') is interesting.

Basically, it *does* seem fair that you can't choose Stun if you're gaining a DV bonus from something Physical. On the other hand, I'd be fine allowing people to always choose Stun *if* they also revert to the base DV for it (Str/2 right?).

woops, I must have been blind.

Sounds like a nice houserule for Bone Lacing and Bone Density Augmentation, but what about Cyberlimbs? They only do (STR/2)P. Just being able to switch between Stun and Physical seem a bit too easy for swinging those metal arms, especially since you are not allowed to do this with a lead pipe.

I would say it's perfectly reasonable for a guy with metal arms to choose to do Stun instead of Physical, simply because to do otherwise is just mean to the player.

Would you allow it for brass knuckles or clubs?

Yeah, Dakka Dakka, I'm pretty okay with anyone, anytime doing mere Str/2 S (+0 Reach, etc.; no bonuses). Even if they happen to have 4 full cyberlimbs, I just don't care from a game balance perspective.

Sure. Might downgrade the damage to straight Str/2, might not. Y'ever heard of a "sap?" You can knock a guy unconscious with one without killing him. Or just beat him in the guts - painful and, if this were RL, risking of an internal injury, but frankly I'd rather players feel perfectly free to resort to manual pummeling to subdue an unruly guy than have yet another reason to be carrying SnS.

A sap is a distinct weapon, though.

If they're actually *subduing* an unruly guy, tha's Subduing.

No, I wouldn't allow it for held weapons; they can easily drop them and use their native unarmed. As I mentioned earlier, the GM could also require a Called Shot for Mr. Full Cyber, if that makes the group happier (isn't that a D&D rule?).

Unless of course their unarmed sucks and their melee is great, in which case their options are basically "beat the guy into a coma" or "get your ass kicked."

Players will tend to take the first every time. Easier to just let 'em pull the punches and use a big friggin' pipe to knock someone out upside the head.

Couldn't the guy just do an open hand slap or a backhand? I just can't picture a world where you backhand someone to death.

I can't imagine a Sixth World where you *don't* backhand someone to death!

… Yes, that seems like a reasonable source of Stun.

No, Shadowdragon, that's the whole point. You can't KO someone by hitting them in the head with a pope… and not risk incredible Physical damage. They should have brought a sap, but at least they *can* drop their weapon. You wouldn't allow it with a knife, why with a lethal club? The OP asked about bone lacing because it's a very different situation: you still have skin, for one, and you *can't* drop it.

Because a knife is an edged weapon, and a pipe is not.

Wolverine could.

But, thinking on it, bone lacing would certainly keep your pimp hand strong indeed!

I don't think there are 'edged weapons' in the SR4 mechanics, but that's not the point either. You can't 'gently' bludgeon someone in the head with a pipe, exactly as you can't 'gently' stab them; they're both Physical (lethal) weapons.

Are his claws sharpened on the backside? Seems more like it would be a good way to knock someone the fuck out.



No, but you can apply blunt-force trauma in a manner that will minimize the risk of lasting internal injury whilst maximizing the disruption to the target's ability to stay coherent. That is, after all, exactly what you're doing when you beat someone with your fists.

That's kind of hard to do with a knife. So while there may not be a game-mechanics distinction between blunt and edged (or piercing, for that matter) weapons, I'd be forced to call in a common-sense override. If someone's willing to pull their punches (metaphorically) with a pipe in order to subdue a guy without crushing his skull, I'll let him. The guy will probably get some physical overflow, but it's better to get a full Stun track and a few P boxes (unless you're a Runner with medical aid only a few minutes away) than dying boxes filled in.

I don't think they need to be. He's got a pretty good swing on him.

Even so, it would still take him more than one backhand, I'd think.

True. But the person would wish it was only one.

ShadowDragon, that's not what you're doing with your fists. Meat fists (naturally) never do Physical, regardless of where/how; lead pipes always do Physical, regardless of where/how.

As for 'pulling punches', that's a totally different mechanic, and it'd be modeled by the Called Shot option I mentioned twice.

But the religious conversion will give a nasty sting!



I must say I find the approach of (re)writing / interpreting rules for the player's best interests quite bizarre in this context. In the game world (not to mention the real one) there is no causal link between the ability to relinquish a weapon and the kind of damage it does, so I would quite instinctively categorise it as something for the players to work around not vice versa. It's kinda like letting a PC shrug off the effects of a drug to avoid a penalty because they only took it for the bonuses and it would be unfair after they'd gone to all that trouble and expenditure in getting it. I'm not saying I'd rule against giving them the option (the damage thing, not the drug thing) but am surprised by the arguments presented.

What I will say, though, is that still having skin cannot be a valid argument for giving the player options. It's not a variable element.

Haha, I'm leaving that typo, Aerospider.

It's not about player options or best interests at all, it's about a hand (even a cyber one) being different from a metal pipe. I'd allow (require) a Nerf-coated metal bar to do stun as well, but the real difference is that your hand is a *hand*. You can control it, you can punch and slap, etc. The person making a 'player interests' argument is ShadowDragon, who thinks weapons can deal Stun if the player has a much lower Unarmed skill.

This was the interpretation my GM decided to go with. I can do an unarmed attack to do stun using a boot or what-have-you, but I don't get the DV bonus of the bone-lacing. This would be similar I guess to a character with a cyberarm choosing to attack with the cyberarm for physical damage, or another appendage for stun damage.

I love this sentence.

The problem with this is that (chances are) the bone lacing isn't in only one arm. The leg you kick with will have it too and if damage of a bare-skinned punch is converted to physical the same should apply to a boot unless it's made out of nerf.

Just take a look at the "improvised weapons" in Arsenal - just beat the perpetrator with a chair, if there is no chair aviable and more perpetrators, pick one perpetrator up and beat the others with him.
(Metahuman Body: BOD/2+2 S)
Or just buy a sap or shock gloves.

That's more a TV/movie trope than RL. It is very difficult to incapacitate someone by applying kinetic energy without causing permanent harm. Choke holds while still difficult will be a better bet.

You may want to notice that you can still do subdual damage with weapons (even edged ones). The only restriction is, it has to be melee. You do not get a bonus for the weapon though and strangely improving your grip is always based on an Unarmed Combat roll.

You're thinking too hard, Aerospider. We know that boots don't do Physical damage, even if they should. AFAIK, even things like steel-toed boots don't exist.

So then explain for me the reasoning that deduces a bone-laced punch must be physical damage but a bone-laced kick must/may not.

Only if that kick is wearing a boot. It's not reasoning, it's just the rules.

We know that a normal person wearing any kind of footwear can't do Phys (AFAIK), so footwear must not be able to do Phys. If we think that bone-laced feet wrapped in skin, socks, and boots *do* do Phys, then that's a different (and to me, implausible) conclusion.

Obviously, the fact that melee (inc. unarmed) in SR4 is 'an abstract set of moves'—except when it's not—muddies this issue.

Just take the "Hardliner Gloves" and call them "steel-toed boots" ...

Yes, which is something people have house-ruled in order to (arguably) get kicking weapon foci. However, that's the point: if you need 'Hardliner Boots', it implies that normal boots can't do Physical. Why, then, would bone-laced feet do Physical wearing normal boots?

It seems like the determining factor for 'does Physical' is a hard or sharp outer surface. This is why a huge Troll fist only does (mucho) Stun, yet a little beer bottle does Physical. I honestly am not sure how Bone Lacing even does physical through the skin, but presumably it's the knuckles, elbows, etc.? I've always thought that should tear your hands open, but whatever. Either way, that still leaves plenty of 'nonlethal' areas, especially the palm, heel, and blade of the hand. Given that we're talking about house rules and 'making sense', I can't see why bone-lacing wouldn't allow the person to at *least* choose (Str/2)S.

Obviously, it's a little messier with cyberware. Assuming a full borg, non-synthetic, no soft areas *anywhere* (even skull)… yeah, maybe they don't have that option. I'm still happy with the alternate 'pull punches' rule (Called Shot mechanic, -2 or even -4).

I still think the problem is that SR4 melee is half-abstract, half-specific. Using specific limbs is allowed, which is an issue with various cyberwear, weapons, and Martial Arts, yet a Complex Action melee (again, including unarmed) attack is supposed to be a whole set of moves and strikes.

The little bber bottle does stun damage, until it is broken - then it does physical. (ARS, p.17)

Ha, oops. Pick another, then: Rattan Stick, Pistol butt, potted plant, literally anything except a sap (obviously), a chair (?), or a bottle (which breaks on impact, so maybe that's the reason).

… Does anyone know why using a Metahuman Body as a weapon uses Unarmed?

because a dev wrote it so XD

no, i really dont have any idea - it should be clubs (if you are a troll and using a human as a weapon)

There are options for doing stun damage. You can grab your opponent's arms and use those (assuming your opponent doesn't also have bone lacing). "Why are you hitting yourself? Why are you hitting yourself?"

High armor also converts physical damage to stun. "Here, I don't want to kill you, so put this form-fitting body armor on. I'll wait."

Do they get protection from Barriers? Hold a piece of cardboard in front of their face and *then* punch them.

I, personally, do not have a problem allowing a person with bone lacing to do stun damage. The reinforcement of bone lacing will allow a normal fist to act in the same manner as a set of brass knuckles or the hardliner gloves. The combat system is abstract enough to allow a combatant to pick a less powered or lethal attack if they wish to do so. I even like the idea of sacrificing the bonus to damage from the lacing.

If it really bothers you you could allow an inverse of the martial arts maneuver that allows a H-T-H attack to do physical damage for a -2 penalty to the attack pool. That might allow the simulation of the extra effort or inconvenience of an attack that is circumventing the enhanced lethalness you have put in your body. The normal combat system assumes you are trying to act in the most effective manner possible, but I don't see why in certain circumstances you might want to be less...effecient.

Another option might be for the player to not roll his/her entire pool on the attack. The attack might still deal physical damage, but the player might choose to limit the maximum effect at the risk of reducing the probability of success. Not necessarily a satisfactory solution but it could work.

Another idea might be to allow stun damage as a "called shot" special effect.

In fact, I have a 2 inch by 1 inch bruise on my forearm from a demonstration two weeks ago about just that - I bruised myself with the blade of a very sharp knife. I will cede that it is fairly difficult to do, and I would imagine tremendously difficult to do so in combat... but that's why you can hold the blade and beat someone with the handle.

Also, the last 20 posts or so basically say some variant of "Yes, do it with a Called Shot of some sort." I just thought I'd point that out for consensus'/completions' sake.