Can a character with bone lacing choose to do Stun?, And a follow-up about shock gloves Options

[Mercer]

Is there a specific ruling somewhere about a character with bone lacing being able to do Stun damage with his unarmed attacks, or does it have to by physical?

I can make the case from almost any angle. I get why a fist with titanium bone lacing might not be able choose to do Stun, but if the character is kicking someone it seems like it's the boot that's doing the damage. Subduing combat is still an option, so its not impossible for the bone lacing character to do Stun, it's just a different mechanic.

I'm also a little fuzzy on shock gloves. My assumption is you're doing the damage of the glove, even if your unarmed damage is higher (and for a sam with bone lacing, it probably will be). So say you have to hit a lot of people and you go through your ten charges of the shock glove (pesky ninjas), suddenly even though you still have the glove on, you start doing more damage that's Physical rather than the Stun damage you have been doing.

[Yerameyahu]

A shock glove attack is, notionally, a special 'touch attack' (with no option to perform a regular unarmed strike at the same time). Yes, this is slightly problematic, but I prefer it to stacking damages (some silly threads about that in the archives; ditto for adepts throwing poisoned exploding anti-theft knives, or beaning people with grenades, etc.).

Bone lacing is not available for only parts of the body, but yes, I can see how a boot would be different. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) AFAIK, there's no rule that you can choose to deal Stun in that situation (maybe a Called Shot?), but I feel like most GMs would allow it. It's just one of those things that got lost to abstraction and word count, I guess.

[Zoot]

The section on Electricity damage says "A wide variety of nonlethal weapons are designed to incapacitate targets with electrical shock attacks, including stun batons, tasers, cyberware shock hands, and similar electrically charged weapons.  These weapons rely on a contact discharge of electricity rather than kinetic energy."

It doesn't say that the weapon cannot or does not also inflict physical thump damage or that the weapon itself would be damaged by too much impact.

You could make the case that a Stun Baton is really a glorified cattle prod and have the option of using the melee hardening mod from arsenal to turn it into a 'whack n shock'. Shock gloves specifically say they are "triggered by impact." not "triggered by lightly brushing the target with your knuckles". Also in 3e, shock gloves specifically did punch and stun damage.

By choosing to tap rather than thump the target, you can gain a +2 touch attack benefit.


My question (sorry to hijack this thread) is that there seems to be an understanding that these electrical stun weapons are resisted by Willpower rather than Body?!
The core rules says:

Unless otherwise noted, a character rolls Body + armor to resist damage. In some cases another attribute may be called for; Willpower is often used in place of Body, for example, against certain Stun damage attacks.

Have I missed a rule somewhere? I can't find anything in the core rules that says electrical attacks (or for that matter, physical attacks that don't beat the armour level) are resisted with Willpower.

[Yerameyahu]

AFAIK, the main idea is to avoid multi-stacking shenanigans. Otherwise, there's literally no reason (except a small fee) that every melee attack doesn't stack on Electrical. For fun examples, you can play Eclipse Phase. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Glyph]

Willpower is used to resist stun damage when it is notated so in the rules (stun spells, for example). Otherwise, you can probably safely assume Body applies.

A character with bone lacing, I would allow to do stun damage either by attacking with a -2 penalty, or by wearing special padding to soften their blows to stun damage. Purely by RAW, you can always either take the Sweep maneuver from Arsenal (which always does stun damage), or use subduing combat. Or if your enemy's impact armor is high enough, it will be converted to stun damage.

[Draco18s]

Ah, reminds me of a run we had, where we had to take out a hit on ourselves, and we needed a bum (or was this another job?) we could knock out, doctor up, then murder on camera.

No one had any ability to deal stun damage. Physical damage spells, ex-ex ammo, APDS, titanium bone lacing....

Not a single person in the group had the ability to deal stun.

So we beat the hobo over the head with his own hobo bag.

Ahhh...fun times...

[Elfenlied]

The only way for a bone-laced character to deal stun damage is through subdual combat. Note that it only benefits from raw strength, not from the bone lacing bonus.

[Neraph]

An adept with Killing Hands and bone lacing can choose to deal stun damage.

[Yerameyahu]

Only via a loophole. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Faraday]

You'll want the martial arts maneuver, Sweep. It not only deals stun damage only, but knocks down the victim as well.

[Notsoevildm]

I had never considered this before. I always assumed that the fact that cyberlimbs and bone lacing let you do physical damage was more as an addition (ie choose to do stun or physical) rather than only do physical. Maybe that's how it was written in previous editions.

I would certainly rule that a PC could opt to pull his punches and only do stun damage, perhaps with a small penalty (-2 dice) or only doing basic unarmed damage (Str/2)S. I think I prefer the latter option. Yeah, I hear all you rules lawyers out there frothing at the mouth and shouting 'house rule' but the SR rules can be pretty confusing / broken in places so you need to apply some interpretations around your table / thread.

Also melee combat is very abstract so who's to say I didn't just kick him in the junk with my normal steel toecapped boot rather than with my synthetic 'realskin' coated cyberarm. Or do Doc Martens also do physical damage?

[Chinane]

Also melee combat is very abstract so who's to say I didn't just kick him in the junk with my normal steel toecapped boot rather than with my synthetic 'realskin' coated cyberarm. Or do Doc Martens also do physical damage?

The steel capped ones should, but they don't. However, a turn of melee is more than just one kick.

Martial Arts Maneuvers are really your best shot..if you can stomach using MA rules despite their blatant inconsistencies (style advantages stacking..duh).

[Dakka Dakka]

Does everyone forget about subduing damage? That is stun damage by rules fiat (and not based on STR/2). Bone lacing and cyberlimbs only change the normal attacks.

[Yerameyahu]

I think a few people mentioned that already. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I do think the OP question ('can you choose to do normal Stun') is interesting.

Basically, it *does* seem fair that you can't choose Stun if you're gaining a DV bonus from something Physical. On the other hand, I'd be fine allowing people to always choose Stun *if* they also revert to the base DV for it (Str/2 right?).

[Dakka Dakka]

woops, I must have been blind.

Sounds like a nice houserule for Bone Lacing and Bone Density Augmentation, but what about Cyberlimbs? They only do (STR/2)P. Just being able to switch between Stun and Physical seem a bit too easy for swinging those metal arms, especially since you are not allowed to do this with a lead pipe.

[ShadowDragon8685]

I would say it's perfectly reasonable for a guy with metal arms to choose to do Stun instead of Physical, simply because to do otherwise is just mean to the player.

[Dakka Dakka]

Would you allow it for brass knuckles or clubs?

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, Dakka Dakka, I'm pretty okay with anyone, anytime doing mere Str/2 S (+0 Reach, etc.; no bonuses). Even if they happen to have 4 full cyberlimbs, I just don't care from a game balance perspective.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Would you allow it for brass knuckles or clubs?

Sure. Might downgrade the damage to straight Str/2, might not. Y'ever heard of a "sap?" You can knock a guy unconscious with one without killing him. Or just beat him in the guts - painful and, if this were RL, risking of an internal injury, but frankly I'd rather players feel perfectly free to resort to manual pummeling to subdue an unruly guy than have yet another reason to be carrying SnS.

[Yerameyahu]

A sap is a distinct weapon, though.

If they're actually *subduing* an unruly guy, tha's Subduing.

No, I wouldn't allow it for held weapons; they can easily drop them and use their native unarmed. As I mentioned earlier, the GM could also require a Called Shot for Mr. Full Cyber, if that makes the group happier (isn't that a D&D rule?). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[ShadowDragon8685]

A sap is a distinct weapon, though.

If they're actually *subduing* an unruly guy, tha's Subduing.

No, I wouldn't allow it for held weapons; they can easily drop them and use their native unarmed.

Unless of course their unarmed sucks and their melee is great, in which case their options are basically "beat the guy into a coma" or "get your ass kicked."

Players will tend to take the first every time. Easier to just let 'em pull the punches and use a big friggin' pipe to knock someone out upside the head.

[thorya]

Couldn't the guy just do an open hand slap or a backhand? I just can't picture a world where you backhand someone to death.

[Yerameyahu]

I can't imagine a Sixth World where you *don't* backhand someone to death!

… Yes, that seems like a reasonable source of Stun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No, Shadowdragon, that's the whole point. You can't KO someone by hitting them in the head with a pope… and not risk incredible Physical damage. They should have brought a sap, but at least they *can* drop their weapon. You wouldn't allow it with a knife, why with a lethal club? The OP asked about bone lacing because it's a very different situation: you still have skin, for one, and you *can't* drop it.

[ShadowDragon8685]

No, Shadowdragon, that's the whole point. You can't KO someone by hitting them in the head with a pope… and not risk incredible Physical damage. They should have brought a sap, but at least they *can* drop their weapon. You wouldn't allow it with a knife, why with a lethal club?

Because a knife is an edged weapon, and a pipe is not.

[CanRay]

I just can't picture a world where you backhand someone to death.

Wolverine could. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

But, thinking on it, bone lacing would certainly keep your pimp hand strong indeed!