Well, we currently have no technomancers in our game, and the two players who expressed an interest in checking out technomancers aren't likely to die soon. So for now, those rules are only being applied to people using decks to do their hacking. If we find out it sucks for technos, or makes them not worth considering, we'll either adapt it or rule that it works differently for technomancers.

Aside from replacing Logic with whatever their resonance stat is, what other obvious fixes are there? I don't understand Technomancers, so I don't understand why this would overly effect them.

What precisely is a high-Logic person good at? Chemistry? Is that really a role on a team? The problem with divorcing Hacking from any attribute whatsoever (which is basically what the current system does) is that it makes an entire team role replaceable with money. Going by the rules, Slamm-O should be unemployed. There's no reason to ever hire him to do anything, because you can take anyone off the street, toss a few hundred thousand nuyen on them (the same amount any hacker would have to spend) and suddenly they're the equal of the best hacker you can find. If that's acceptable for hacking, then why can't you do it for firearms too, then? Why not have magic work without attributes?

I see your point, but there a fair amount of skills that use Logic - most of the Technical Active skills (Armorer, First Aid, Hardware, all the Mechanic stuff), Academic and Professional Knowledge skills

Less useful than, say, Agility...but more useful than Str (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

i always liked the idea of playing a REALLY good hacker, but then just spending all my time upgrading my teams 'links and giving them pirated programs, so they all become really good hackers. Then i retire, leaving my awesome 'link and programs to my son, a druggie street sam with a big sword...

I mean lets be fair there are some rules in the book that werent quite thought out. But Logic IS a useful attribute. Anyone doing any kind of repair uses it, mages ofter use it too.

My personal favourite though goes like this.
"oh mr. GM yesterday, when i was in that warehouse yesterday, did i notice if the walls were red? And whats the name of the lady we are looking for? and how do i get back home"
"well little timmy, all these answers can be yours for just one roll of "memory""
"uhm? Memory?"
"yes timmy, memory, your logic + intuition"
"but i dont HAVE logic =[ i dumped that stat so i can get 3 more points of reaction"
"oh well thats too bad timmy, i hope you didnt leave anything important at home."

@JonathanC
Well, actually it works with firearms too.
Skillwire and ware to increase agility. (The problem here is, that there is not much around, which would stack. (Muscle toner and some general stuff)
But still, going from 3 to 8 or even 9 for money only is not that bad.


But yes, in general Logic is only usefull for mages and technomancers. But they can add up a lot of "skills" around it.

You're definitely (and still passionately) overstating your case. As noted, Logic has a ton of linked skills, and many would considering programming important for an epic hacker (Slamm-O, etc.).

And yes, Skillwires basically replaces *anything* (shooting, programming, *sculpting*, anything)… but only up to Rating 4-ish. So worry not, truly expert hackers still need skill. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I think the fluff makes perfect sense as-is: Logic is memory and critical reasoning, *not* split-second decision-making. Hacking, esp. multi-IP VR hacking, is faster than Logic. If anything, Intuition makes sense for many things, but mostly having good programs makes sense. Unlike the movies, you don't just pop open a terminal and start hacking their firewallz. You run your programs and wait. Knowing what to use when is skill.

This is Shadowrun, money usually replaces many things. Implants and gear (like foci) for everyone! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It has a ton of linked skills, yes, but none that are useful to a hacker. And an "epic" hacker would be better off with a Logic of 1. Slamm-O, assuming that he has a high Logic, would get toasted easily by anyone with the same amount of Karma/BP, because they would have started off superior to him (having spent their points on stuff that wasn't Logic) and just gotten better from there.


Your chances of doing well in a gunfight with low Agility and a Pistol skillsoft is basically nonexistent. Your chances of successfully hacking into a secured system with low Logic and a Hacking skillsoft is comparable to a professional Hacker (assuming R4 skillwires) as you're only missing out on 2 dice in most situations (4 dice in the one situation where the hacker might be specialized). No other team role is so easily replaced. Why play a Hacker?


Then why is Hacking linked to Logic instead of Intuition?


Shadowrun hacking is like the movies, though. You jump into computer land and run around in virtual buildings, punching computer programs in the face until they cough up the data you want.


When you can come up with a way to turn anyone into the equal of the best Street Sam using only money, get back to me. As it is, a person optimized for combat will always be superior given the same amount of money. As it is right now, you could put Skillwires in a newborn baby and have it kick any hacker's ass in the Matrix.

Also, foci are not usable by "everyone".

Jesus.

Why are you assuming everyone has the same BP to work with, that their only goal is to monospecialize, and that there's no cap/significant diminishing returns on investment of those resources?

Agility comes from 'ware. As I said, expert hackers still need *skill*, just as real skill can beat skillwires in anything. I didn't say it replaced Agility. (Irion specifically mentioned this above me.)

God forbid multiple people be hackers in a world of ubiquitous matrix, especially if they invest significant resources. If you're worried about replacement, meet the unlocked Agent hack-in-a-box.

Presumably because it's technical? I didn't write the book, and my comment about intuition was only *my* comment.

Does punching programs in the face sound like Logic to you? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) And that's totally unlike what I said. I said that, unlike in the movies where they apparently do *programming* in mid-hack, you don't do that in SR (or real life, for that matter).

I didn't say 'best', and as has already been said, you can get very good with just cash. No one said foci were for everyone. The sentence says 'gear for everyone', and I included foci because even Awakened benefit from throwing money at the problem. I'm sorry if this confused you.

--
So. Hacking takes significant investment even without Logic, and many people like to get a high Logic anyway. If you find the programming rules inadequate incentive, you could make *them* better, though many people are happy to use them. The inclusion of Logic is a matter of *taste*, not righteousness. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) As I've repeatedly said, you should do that if it makes you happy… you just shouldn't act like the current rules are wrong or broken because of it, and you should make sure your 'fixes' don't break other things.

Because this is a roleplaying game, and all of those things are true. The current system incentivizes you to make Logic 1 retards if you like playing Hackers, because there is absolutely no mechanical benefit to being a "smart" hacker, and doing so actually hampers you considerably.


Agility can be *enhanced* by 'ware, and so can logic. The difference is that 'ware stacks on top of your existing Agility, so points spent on natural agility still give a benefit. Comparatively, investing in logic does nothing for a hacker. So all things being equal, if an Agility 7 Elf and an Agility 3 Troll get the same Agility 'ware, the Elf is still a better shot. But if a Logic 6 Dwarf and a Logic 1 Ork get the same commlink/programs, they're entirely equal.


This isn't about being able to function on the Matrix; we're talking about hacking. Bending the matrix to your will. It's a simple question: who do you expect to be better at hacking: a genius, or a drooling man-child? In SR4, the answer is always "The drooling man-child, because he spent his points on *useful* things".



Perhaps, but working with computers, hacking code, etc. are things associated with mental effort of some kind. Yet mental attributes mean nothing in SR4 for hacking purposes. Again, you could stick skillwires in a baby and reasonably expect him to handle all of your hacking needs.


The point is that only the Hacker role can be completely supplanted with money.


It's not that significant. All you need is exploit to break in, and Stealth to avoid detection long enough to give yourself admin privileges in the system.



This is like saying that the inclusion of Agility in the use of firearms is a matter of taste, or the inclusion of the Magic attribute in spellcasting.



But it *is* broken. It makes the role of the Hacker completely useless and unnecessary. For a few extra points you can give anyone the level of skill they'd need to a group's hacking.

Alternatively, you could look at it as Hackers being able to skimp on attribute spending because attributes do nothing for their core skillset. According to these rules, the average Hacker in Shadowrun should be a well-built, drooling moron.

Slamm-O is not a chargen PC. That was your own example, so it's clear we weren't talking about competing PC builds. Even if we were, 'hampers you considerably' is a gross overstatement. Neither are the other points in that sentence true: hackers (and all SR chars) frequently hybridize, there are many benefits to having Logic, and the hacker power hits diminishing returns very quickly.

Again, I said skill. I didn't say skillwires replaced agility, though spending money can certainly make you a very good sam. I never said, 'the best', and I don't see a relevant distinction between 'very good' and 'best' here. You acted like it's morally wrong that they can just throw money at the problem (nevermind that money is a character resource like any other); my point is that throwing money at problems is the basis of SR.

Logic 6 and Logic 1 aren't equal. They're only equal if you foolishly limit your focus to just hacking tests, instead of a whole character.

I didn't say 'function on the matrix'; I said 'hacking'. God forbid everyone be able to hack in Matrix 2.0 society… after investing significantly in nuyen and skill.

'Working with computers' is skill. 'Hacking code' is *programming*, not hacking nodes. And so what? That baby would be the ultimate script kiddie (albeit with skills stuck at 4-ish). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Oh noes!

The 'hacker role' can be completely supplanted by an Agent, by your logic. So? Is someone being hurt by this? You still have to spend the money. You're acting like money suddenly doesn't matter… in *Shadowrun*.

No. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If you think hacking doesn't take investment, I don't even know what to say to you. Just Exploit and Stealth? Sigh. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Expert hackers simply aren't that easy to replace, and 'the hacker' is certainly (and obviously, because many people play them!) not a useless or unnecessary role. And thank god that people can do some hacking (but again, not really that much) without having to be built from the ground up as 'the hacker' and nothing else.

@JonathanC...

Which is WHY there are OPTIONAL RULES in the Book. To address your concerns. Use them.
There are many players like you, who feel that Logic should have a roll in Hacking. There are 2 optional rules that address that issue directly.

1. Skill + Attribute, Hits Capped by Program Rating.
2. Skill + program, Hits capped by Logic.

They both work to solve your issue.

Our table is currently experimenting with another variation...

Skill + Attribute, program acts as Reach (The difference is a malus/bonus to the DP)... No Hit Caps at all. Has the benefit of helping Technomancers out as well, assuming they thread to high CF Ratings.

These all make Logic MUCH more important in the system...

As for Technomancers, we enforce the LOGIC Attribute for the actual HACKING portion (Or Appropriate Attribute for the various Matrix Action Skills), and the Stream Stat (Intuition, Charisma, etc) as the Fading Attribute. Does this have ramifications on the Technomancer... Of course it Does, but it seems to work out pretty well right now. It does not hurt that, in my opinion, the only thing that should be different from the Technomancer and the Hacker is the reliance upon Hardware/Software, Sprites, and Echoes. A Technomancer with No Echoes, and No Sprites SHOULD NOT BE so much better at Hacking than a hacker is (HIs CF's MAY be better or may not be). His biggest benefit is he DOES NOT NEED HARDWARE/SOFTWARE. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Anyways...

Unless you care about glitches or have tiny hands, there's nothing hugely wrong with just adding all three to the DP (as mentioned earlier, and in other threads). The main benefit of this variant is that it's very simple, and doesn't have any caps (which *are* morally wrong). It gets a little tricky for some things, but every options has different issues. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Morally Wrong? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I tend to not like Dice Bloat, personally, but that is an option we also looked at. We did not like it, but there you go. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

They don't have to invest in skill; they can just spend enough money and be as close to equal to a "specialist" that it doesn't matter. That's the problem. I understand that there are alternate rules to address the problem, but I really do wonder what they were thinking when they made the default rules declare that any moron is equal to a genius when it comes to hacking (and only hacking).

As for the "many benefits" of Logic....it's useful, but easily the least useful of the attributes, rating just below "strength". Agility is required for any type of non-magical attack, reaction is crucial because it's your only chance at dodging (unless you give up your next turn to full dodge, and reaction is still important there), body is your damage soak *and* your health boxes, Intuition is linked to Perception, and you can't really afford to be without a good perception roll. Willpower is magic resistance plus stun boxes.

Even Charisma and strength come up more often than Logic, which is only used for technical skills, which are mostly obscure and unnecessary. Lockpicking? Just buy an autopicker. Hardware? Just buy a sequencer and/or a passkey. Software? worthless. Chemistry? Just buy your chems like a regular person, cheapskate. Armorer? The base game doesn't really have rules for armor degradation, so why bother? Mechanic skills? Niche use, probably better off taking a mechanic contact instead.

Logic simply isn't needed at all for the average Shadowrunner, while every other attribute is needed. That's all I'm saying. Yes, you *can* play a smart guy in Shadowrun, but you're basically gimping yourself for no good reason.

Again, I have to agree with Yerameyahu that you are overstating your case.

Lockpicking gets better if you have a high Logic AND the Lockpicker. Same with the Sequencer... Passkeys do not even USE a skill roll...

Software is NOT useless, you just have to make room to use it. The Hacker I play Self-Programs ALL of his software. No reason not too, and it does not even take all that long. There are rules for doing so in the book, and patching is a no-brainer.

Chemistry is good for Industrial Chemicals, Explosives and Drugs, all commodities that characters may need. yes, you can buy them, but making them can save you some Nuyen, especially if you are doing so in your safehouse while laying low.

Armorer is necessary to repair those broken weapons (Cheaper than buying a new one) or modding them out (Also cheaper than paying someone else to do it).

Mechanics skills are only niche if you rarely/never need to repair or mod a vehicle. You will not always have access to your Contacts.

Lets not forget First Aid and Medicine. Very Useful indeed.
Arcana for Spell Design, Foci Design, Ally Design, etc.
Any Professional or Academic Knowledges...
Any Computer Rolls when not actually HACKING... More common that you would think.

If your game does not use the Technical skills, you are not trying hard enough. As a Player, I tend to use them many times more, for most of my characters, than the combat skills that are listed. All in all, I tend to see more Charisma and Logic skill tests than any other in the game, outside of immediate combat, which is a small fraction of the story. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That's kind of my point...with any of these tools you can pick locks without using the skill at all. Yes, a lockpicker would be *better* at it, but you only need to be good enough.


The interval for each software test to create a hacking program is 1 month; the threshold is ratingX2. So that's...what? A couple of months of coding per program? And that's assuming that you don't have anything better to do for those two months...something like, I don't know...Shadowrunning?



...which is why it's nice, but not necessary. I said that Logic wasn't necessary; this is true.



And again, the base book has no rules for normal wear and tear on weapons and armor.


True, but there's nothing stopping you from just looking up "mechanics" in the local directory if you need a tire changed.


Arcana is nice to have, but not a necessity. First Aid/Medicine are nice, but with a couple of skill points and a high-rating Medkit, you'll have all the dice you need without investing in Logic. I've never seen anyone make a Computer roll outside of the context of hacking. Searching is Data Search + Browse, and anything else (turning on a computer, writing an email, etc.) is so simple that making someone roll for it is silly.


Technical skills are a convenience; Combat skills are a necessity. That's the difference.

Where in the book(s) would I find these optional rules? I've looked, didn't see them. Page Reference Requested, Please.

Unwired, page 39
Shadowrun 20th Anniversary, page 226

Actually, it is not so far-fetched...

Logic is the mental equivalent to Agility. And Agility is used for punching people in the face in the physical world. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Intuition is more reactive than proactive (i.e. Intuition vs. Logic is like Reaction vs. Agility).

Bye
Thanee

Programming Environment reduces that by half, Rushing the Job reduces that by half, and an Edge expenditure can also reduce that by half. So 1/4 to 1/8th the time to program. That Month Interval becomes 1 week to as little as 3.5 Days; not really all that long, now is it? And if you are patching, that one week interval (40 Hours) becomes 10 Hours (or 5 Hours) respectively.



Are you telling me that your games do not have armor damaged and possibly needing repair (there is a rule for that btw, optional but there)?
Are you telling me your weapons never get damaged (Various spells and other effects inflict damage to gear)?
Gear NEVER gets damaged?

Wow... your characters must lead charmed lives.



Sometimes you just can't do that, though. And if you are unable to repair it yourself, in those circumstances, well, you are out a fair amount of resources then.



Arcana is necessary if you don't want to pay insane prices for Foci. Also cuts down on the spell purhcases if you can design it yourself.
While you can rely upon JUST your medkit for the bonuses for healing/first aid, that is a poor way to go about it, in my opinion.
I have seen a LOT of Computer Rolls in game. If you have infiltrated a facility as a technician with a valid account on the node, you are NOT using Hacking to perform computer tasks. You are using Computer instead.

I have issues with players submitting/playing functionally incompetant characters (Stat 1 Attributes) because it is mechanically okay to do so. That does not fly with me.



I see no difference. Yes, Combat Skills/Attributes are where you will likely put your points, IF combat is a main priority, and you don't actually care about what makes a Shadowrunner a Shadorunner. In my experience, however, Technical and Social skills/attributes play much more of a part in the unfolding life of a Shadowrunner than do the combat aspects. They are the things that allow you to do your job in the first place. The combat aspects are only there to insure you survive the fallout when your technical/social aspects are not good enough. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yes, 'morally wrong', TJ. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Just teasing.

Oh, suddenly your point is about 'good enough', not 'being the best'? In that case, you have to admit that money can make you 'good enough' at almost anything. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) And if you're satisfied with skill 4 (wires), then you're certainly not talking about truly expert hackers.

Agreed: combat skills are only more important than technical skills because you and your group chose to make them so.

Best solution:

GM: Let me see your character sheet.
Min-Max Player: Okay...
GM:Cyber-combat 7, logic 1. WTF?
Min-Max:It is in the rules.
GM:Um explain to me how a world class hacker has no logic?
Min-Max:Umm, its in the rules?
GM:Hell no. Drop it to 4 and give yourself a logic of 3.
Min-Max:Butt but...

GM FIAT for the win!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Thanks. Looks like it's a pretty simple rule. I'm not sure which I prefer better. The 2x program dice cap seems nice, but I could see problems at the high end. It likely depends which boosts come before the cap and which come after the cap.

That's almost exactly what we do. Our programs run from Trial Versions (-3 to DP) to Next Gen/Military (+3 to DP). 7 different ratings. The Trial Version is a Rating 0.
Logic is much more important, but even an idiot that has some idea what they're doing can do well with the best hacker program available, especially against your everyday commlink.

We generally compare Program vs. Progra,. If you have a Rating 5 Program, and you are going up against a Rating 8 MilSpec Installation, then you are at a -3 DP. It is a direct comparison vs. the relevant software involved in the test.

And yes, Logic is Highly important in this regard, thoguh software may be able to help you if you are running top of the line programs against Midrange targets. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)