I'd point out that a lot of the reason folks jump on you , JC, is not the factual content of what you post, but how you present it.

The liberal use of curse words, insinuations on people's intelligence levels, outright insults - that's attacking people. Not the subject, people. It will automatically create certain reactions, none of which are likely beneficial to you.

In general, this only weakens the impact of what you have to say. You may have something important and relevant and well thought out in your message, but if someone reading it sees a stream of invectives and abuse mixed into the text, they're likely to dismiss the message as emotional ranting. At the very least, it makes the message downright unpleasant to read, so the audience may just not pay that much attention to the content. Either way, your message gets lost in the baggage.

I for one have attempted to remain civil and focused on the subject. I'd ask that you do the same.


As for the subject at hand...

I have no problem with a datajack that has both a wired jack AND wireless connectivity, and a data chip that is the same. You see this sort of thing on products all the time. It's not stupid, it's a feature. Marketing departments call it Legacy Support.

There are some chips out there without wireless that will need a physical port to plug in, either older models or ones that are deliberately made without it. Likewise there's older datajacks around that lack wireless and might need to have a data chip physically plugged in. Really, the datajack itself is a legacy device - many folks in the Sixth World don't use them at all.

Even now, the new "wireless USB" standard is being developed to allow USB-style connectivity without wires. But even computers and peripherals that have it will still also have old fashioned wired USB ports for years and years to come. Smartphones these days all have Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, AND a physical USB port. Hell. you still see legacy PS/2, VGA, and Serial ports offered on some current laptops - how many people actually use those? The list goes on.

Additionally, having the datajack be JUST a connection port, rather than a media reader as well, is just... cleaner. Design-wise, you don't have to assume additional mechanical functions in datajacks, and it neatly explains HOW datachips somehow can interface with any electronic device.

It also follows real world trends that are moving away from "bare media" storage. It's far simpler and more efficient to design interfaces to a universal standardized port, and move the media reader with a compatible port into the same package as the storage media. That way you don't have to worry about being compatible with this or that media, this or that proprietary storage tech. You don't HAVE to have this 23-in-1 'universal reader' with a dozen sockets and slots for media from different companies - one socket, one standard, the various companies can still use whatever internal storage tech they want and it all works with any computer.



-k

I think you'll see I didn't say that at all. I claimed 'several', and then I noted that you said 'one' (after having just said 'none').

I didn't claim RAW. I, in fact, claimed the opposite: I specifically suggested 'house rules' on more than one occasion.

Aw, for the record: I like you fine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You've mockingly suggested that my statements are houserules, while your's follow the actual rules; this is false. Until you or anyone else can definitively point to a rulebook that states that datachips are wireless in nature, they are not wireless. "Electronics" is a specific section in the gear section of the book, and Datachips are not in that section. By the letter of the rules, datachips are not wireless.

And you're free to take that position. Not everyone agrees. As they explained, they interpret 'Electronics' differently, as well as the default features of various items. The rules do not explicitly state the features of datachips in either direction, which has been my position. I can easily see both as plausible, and the 'correct' answer is almost assuredly 'use your own judgment because the rules didn't *care* to define this unimportant point'. Note that this is definitely not RAW, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

(If you're assuming I'm mocking you, there's nothing I can do about that. Sounds like a complex to me.)

Phew, what a lot of back and forth about nothing much. Here's my 2 new yen's worth.

Being an old-fashioned sort, I like the idea that data chips have to be physically slotted into a reader in order for the data to be accessed. Just because the Face character is using a Japanese linguasoft to talk to the Yakuza, thematically I don't think it reasonable that everyone else in the vicinity (including the Yakuza boss and his underlings) should be able to wirelessly access that information as well (especially stuff like monitering the words the face was looking up).

Moving on to JC's conundrum about data chips and internal commlinks, the internal commlink is wireless so could access the data from a peripheral chipreader/disposable commlink the character inserted the chip into, or the internal commlink could access the data directly via a datajack or chipjack (if such things exist any more).

Therefore, in my mind, a datajack would only be necessary for the character to access the data if for some reason he didn't have access to a chip reader/disposable commlink/other wireless device at the GM's discretion. In the SR world of the 2070's datajacks are largely redundant, although they *do* allow the possibility for someone to transfer data to a device securely (non-wirelessly) via that fiberoptic cable, and also allow someone to secrete said datachips fairly undetectably on their person.

Saying all this (my take on things), Yerameyahu's position on data chips being wireless in the 2070 SR-verse is also perfectly valid; the RAW is far too vague for any side to claim it has to be one way or t'uther.

Just a point here...

You do KNOW JonathanC that you can block the posts of those you do not want to read, right?
If Yerameyahu bothers you so much, just ignore him by blocking.
Personally, I think that he has a few good points here (and in most, if not all, of the threads he participates in). Often, you do too.

Unfortunately, your rage throws all that into the deep end. It really is not all that difficult to remain civil, even when you vehemently disagree with someone. Name calling is never required, nor is resulting to profanity. Relax and discuss, rahter than raging at those you do not agree with. The threads will thank you for it.

I will also add this...



Looks to me like Chips ARE Old-Tech...

Actually, I'd totally forgotten about the ignore function. Thanks for the reminder; this shouldn't happen again.


...which supports the idea that you'd have to slot them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Midas, there's no reason that wireless means 'wide open to everyone'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Think of every other device (including your commlink), after all.

ONLY THE OLD ONES, though. Modern 2070 Chips are likely Wireless Enabled. It is a Feature that you CAN turn off, if you so choose to do so. My point was, though, that your argument about BTL's and Skills is obviously wrong, since they are primarily distributed via Wireless. It is likely that some Chips are still manufactured for the many who do not have the new tech, and require a chip instead, but there is no reason to assume that the chips are not wireless enabled by default.

In the end, as Yerameyahu pointed out, it is a table issue, because the rules do not care one way or the other, due to the fact that it is beneath the rules' level of granularity. *shrug*

Why would you put wireless on chips that would only be bought by people who don't have wireless access? Your own argument is that these software programs are mostly digitally distributed (which is a whole different kind of retarded, but it's canon, so I digress...not sure why SR4 was designed by people with an "I read a lot of Wired magazine" level of computer knowledge, but whatever). If that's the case, then wireless-enabled storage chips are completely unmarketable. It's like trying to sell Penny Farthings to professional bicyclists. It is literally less convenient than EVERY OTHER OPTION. It's less convenient than using the Cloud, because you have to carry this little chip around. It's less convenient than storing the data on your gun or whatever, because you have to carry this little chip around.

If we're working with the (ridiculous, but I digress) assumption that all electronic devices are wireless and have infinite storage, then gun clips (which have to report ammo capacity to the smartlink) would have to be electronic devices, and they only cost 5 nuyen...and they're naturally more useful than wireless datachips (they literally do everything, PLUS hold bullets).

It would be an incredible waste of money to put wireless capability (even small costs add up, eventually) into a device that literally nobody would use that feature for. It defies both logic AND the direct letter of the rules (again, "Electronics" is a specific section in the gear chapter; Datachips aren't in it).

If you really think that this is merely a table issue, then why argue so fervently against it? Why insist that I'm wrong unless you believe that this is actually a matter of canon versus houserules?

I'd use that feature. Why do people use thumbdrives today, when they could just email? … Or dropbox, or IM-transfer, or torrent, or FTP, or burn a CD, or hand them a SD card, or post in on Facebook, etc.? Because they're options, and they have different uses, availabilities, popularity, and so on. Again, imagination. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You're wrong to say you're right, that only one side is possibly right. TJ is saying that neither/both is right. This is a pretty simple distinction.

Ty, I really can't thank you enough for reminding me about that "ignore" function. You've literally doubled the utility of this forum for me.

Okay, lets see if we can do this...



Because Chips are not just bought by people with outdated tech. Let me give you an example. I, personally, do not like the Cloud. I do not use it, and I likely never will if I have the choice. However, I do like having access to my data. A wireless USB key is awesome in that regard. I do not have to plug it in to access my data. CD/DVD tech is also good, and I wish they were wireless capable too. So, if I would want my data to be wireless accessible, why do I not use the Cloud? Because I think the Cloud can be too easily compromised. I can control the accessibility of my Data Storage Devices, and disable wireless on them when I want to do so. The data is secure when I want it to be, as NO ONE CAN GET TO IT WIRELESSLY when I disable it, and have to have it in their little grubbies to access it manually, which I can also control. So, I like to have the option. Not having the option is worse than having it be wireless capable by default.

Now, why would I not store it in my gun? Because I think that that is stupid. I COULD do so, but for 20% of the cost, I can have a datachip. I am not going to give my Gun Clip to the MR. J when transferring hard data, I will give him my chip. I could also just transfer my data wirelessly to his comlink wirelessly, If I was not worried about it being intercepted, which is a possibility in Shadowrun.

As for actual Storage. I would disable Wireless, and lock the chip in a safe, and there you go, ultimate security. The fact that it COULD come with wireless capabilities does not mean that I would HAVE to keep that capability enabled.



They are NOT naturally MORE USEFUL, they just have naturally MORE OPTIONS. Other than the fact that I think storing Data in a gun is Stupid, you could indeed do that now, with no change in the rules whatsoever. I just see no use in it. Here is why. The more things you use an object for, the more you lose when it breaks/is lost/is taken away from you. The fact that it offers options makes no nevermind to me. I tend to use purpose built devices. I do not store data on a gun, or in my stylus, or whatever. I use a chip, or Fiingernail data storage, or Nanopaste data storage tattoos, or whatever.



Options are not an incredible waste of money, they are a natural progression of technology. As others have mentioned already, we are adding wireless connectivity to mass data storage devices TODAY. Why? According to you, taht is extremely stupid and consumers would be ignorant and stupid to utilize such technology, as it flies in the face of your argument that it is illogical. They buy it because they want it, and will buy it when it is offerred because it makes their life potentially easier. If people are buying it, it is not a waste of the manufacturers money.



I argue against the logic that you are applying. You deem it stupid and illogical, and I am saying that it fits the game worlds own internal logic and technological progression.

As for having gear in the Electronics Section... there are a lot of items taht are electronic (or have electronics in them) that are not in that section.

The followign are definitive Electronic Devices in the main book that I found OUTSIDE of the Electronics Section...

Certified Credsticks...
Visual Sensors and Imaging Devices (An entire whole section itself)...
Audio Sensors and Enhancements (Another section)...
Sensor Packages (ANOTHER whoe section)...
Cellular Glove Molder
Keycard Copier
Maglock Sequencer
Biomonitor
Medkit (Among Other functions)
Cyberware (Almost all of it is Electronic in some fashion)
And as you have pointed out, many Guns and SUb-Systems of such are also electronic.

None of these are in the Electronics Section, and that is only 1 Book.
Please note that I would also include all Mass Storeage Devices in that list as well, which would include Data Chips.

That being said, it is still a Table decision, because it is not hard coded into the rules. So, I can argue my POV without really caring what others do, becuase it is subjective to each table in the end. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So, just so I'm clear on this, your argument is that:

- Having options is always better than not having options. It doesn't matter if the options are stupid or not.

- Except when one of those options is "you can put bullets in it", because keeping data in an empty gun clip is stupid.

- Everything in the gear section has wireless, because some items outside of the Electronic section are defined as having wireless capability/being electronic.

Of course, the third point means that all of the items you're referring to have fiber-optic cable ports, because any electronic device can be accessed via cable with a datajack. This would include, among other things that you mentioned, Contact Lenses (in the visual sensors/imaging section), cybereyes (in the cyberware section), and the cyber-penis, which is also cyberware (and obviously electronic).

So let us answer these points...

- Yes, having options is always better than not. Stupid is relative. What may be stupid to you may not be to others.

- I don't care about some options, and would just disable such things. Maybe you like keeping your data in an empty gun clip. I would not say you could not. I just would not do so myself. See the difference?

- I have no issues with Wireless connectivity, especially since it CAN BE TURNED OFF IF YOU DON'T Like it.

Of course, not everything has ports for cables, just most things, because there are other ways of establishing connectivity. Ports are just one of them. Says so, right in the Rules. You must have missed that part. Skinlink and Wireless connectivity are two other methods of connectivity in 2070. Not everything NEEDS a connectivity port.

Oh, and another quote... Let me leave this here too...



Note that the ubiquitous Wireless Connectivity in 2070 does not require an "Electronic Device" as you were claiming earlier. Just wanted to point that out, as you were looking for a quote earlier.

It doesn't matter if one person thinks the options are stupid, and others disagree. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Yes, basically everything in 2070 has wireless, and sure, fiber ports. These are not arguments against anything, just simple facts about 2070. As always, everything in the abstract rules is subject to GM/group common sense: if you don't want wired contacts, you don't have to have them. To me, contacts are already nigh-magical in their tech miniaturization; I wouldn't say it's *impossible* that someone invented a way to hook a fiber cable to them, even though I see no need.

The electronic device classification was there because "almost every device" would mean that there are devices that do not have wireless connectivity. Electronic or mechnical devices however have no such restriction and unless the description of the individual item or GM Fiat (which technically constitutes a houserule) says otherwise would be wireless enabled by default. I know you can then create paradoxical items (contact lenses with cables), but to reduce this fluff/rules disconnect there is the GM. I don't care what anyone does at their table, I merely objected to JonathanC's opinion that his assertions were in the rules and anything I stated and even quoted from the books was nonsense.
I guess it hinges on whether the datachips have electronics to provide an interface (whether wired or wireless) or not. I never thought of them as purely optical as for example a CD.

If you're going to market a datachip that also functions wirelessly, why not just market a datachip that is wireless AND holds bullets? Datachips, if wireless, are just gunclips that do less and cost about the same.

Why is this a problem? This state of affairs happens all the time in the RL economy. Even apart from the differences in form factor (a chip is smaller than a clip), they're simply different things. Why can I buy a dozen different kinds of flash memory, mostly incompatible with each other? Some even cost much more for the same storage capacity.

As I said, plenty of electronic devices today sport legacy ports and connectors that are not used by 99% of their purchasers.




-k

Indeed. The idea that everything may only be an optimal fit for one person's opinion, and anything else is unthinkably stupid, is just preposterous.

I am sure that you can dial back the wireless signal of the chip to 0 (only picked up within 1m), but if the chip is wirelessly projecting the data and not directly slaved to/plugged into your commlink, then it is open to anyone in mutual signal range and it is not protected by your commlink's firewall. This is why I like the idea of having chips plugged into (or as TJ pointed out, downloaded into) something at my table, makes things easier (and more importantly, better protected).

There is setting the signal range to 0 (3m) and there is turning it off:

I really don't see why having wirelss datachips would be so "wrong". There already is an option for either chips with the WiFi turned off, WiFi removed or built without WiFi. Just buy what you like.

Not a very ingenious arguement in a discussion about whether things are wireless or not.

I imagine fibre-optic cable ports would be very old skool and not present on a lot of things (including contact lenses); I daresay if someone did want to be able to access data on their contacts via fiber-optic cable there would be a particular product that met that need [such as a particular edge of the lens that got touched by a conducting point gizmo on the end of a fibre-optic cable or something]. IRL this sort of minor-use contact lens would be more expensive than the standard and of course you would also have to pay chump change for the gizmo, but SR abstracts this sort of thing.

I actually agree with you that a manufacturer wanting to sell as many chips as possible would probably not want the data to be broadcast wirelessly to any Tom Dick or Harry within a broad signal range. Why buy a Seattle map when you can just freeload off anyone in the area using one (and at any given point, someone probably is)? The manufacturer would probably use data security as a reason ("We recommend you plug this into your commlink or risk the data being compromised by some malevolent hacker at any time!").

Saying that, TJ's point that not having to physically plug your data soft into your commlink would save an albeit very minor hassle, and who's to say that is not how it is in the wired world of the 2070's?

Good pick-up on signal range 0 being 3m, my bad.

I would say data security would be a fairly big reason: unless the chip is slaved to (read: plugged into) your commlink, it is open to anyone to use and alter (unless it is read-only, and even that could be hacked/corrupted fairly easily). And if you turn the wireless option off, you are going to have to plug it into your commlink to access the data anyway.

I don't see wireless datachips as "wrong" per se, I just prefer them not to be wireless in my game world; either way, it is a level of abstraction that I have never really considered and it hasn't ever come up in play at my table. *Shrug.*