While that's not quite true (as mentioned above; it's more like VR is 'drowning out' your meat senses than replacing/turning-off), it's also not the point. The issue is whether someone can say, 'you can't resist magic because your mind is *literally not present*'. They didn't say anything about awareness.
I'm fine with a house rule that says VR hackers/technos are more vulnerable to certain spells because they're so *distracted*, but just don't say it's because their mind isn't there or they're unconscious/voluntary.

Jammers would solve that problem. After all, you got to dumpshock them somehow.

This word...it doesn't mean what you think it means.

And just so my post is constructive in an on-topic way, I think this is firmly in the realm of GM-fiat. Judge how hard it would be to notice what is happening to the character's body(depending on what is happening to the body), apply the -6 full-VR modifier, apply any other applicable modifiers, and see if there are Perception dice left to roll.

Being in VR is fundamentally different from astrally projecting. Astrally projecting mages LEAVE their meat body. Full-VR characters never "leave" and are still able to move their body, the only reason they usually can't is because it was deemed dangerous to do so, and so a RAS cutoff is standard in sim modules.

Sorry, its a gamer term. Comes from ATHF. I'm used to dealing with gamers whod pick up on the reference quick and move on.

No, you really aren't using that word correctly.

"Duplicity" means deception, lies, and deceit: dictionary reference. Which is not at all similar to the meaning implied by the context of your usage. Seriously, not even in the same ballpark.

Long time since I posted, longer time that I've been lurking...

Moving away from the language argument that this is devolving into:
I have had a few con GMs rule that their NPCs automatically notice things that he would need zero hits on perception to notice. It happened to me in last year's Gen Con tournament as a matter of fact.

His argument was that, even though the target's perception has been dropped to zero through penalties, he would still be capable of noticing things that would require '0 hits on perception'. Which he claimed would be things like taking damage and the like.

This seems to me to be a similar situation. Personally, at my table I wouldn't rule this way, but I haven't been able to find anything in RAW that explicitly states who is correct. Thoughts?

I'd think that VR (assuming you have <7 for perception) works the same way as getting no successes on a perception test. If someone had 3 dice for perception and rolled no successes on a perception test then whatever information you'd give them would be the same you'd give someone with a 0 DP for perception. Your body is still sending signals to your brain they're just of secondary importance to the VR input.

As an example meat puppets running PersonaFix require a hot sim VR connection and still can interact with their environment (at a -6 penalty).

For practical purposes, runners tend to have huge Perception DPs. So this does matter.

Something to consider:
- If someone has a 5 DP for perception and is going VR they roll -1 die. Clearly this means they roll nothing. And it may also mean they get 0 successes.
- If someone has 6 DP for perception, they roll 0 dice and get 0 successes.
- However if someone has 7 DP for perception they now get to roll one die and have a one in six chance of critical glitching and a two in six of getting a single hit. (Which notices very little anyway)

If you assume for low dice pools over penalized just means 'auto zero hits', you remove the chance for glitching. It also makes it so that the guy in VR with a net -5 perception (a terrible base 1 int) and the guy with a net 0 perception (pretty perceptive for a 'muggle') have the exact same odds for seeing things.

It just seems against RAI to me. But I suppose RAW is RAW...

Yeah, that problem is a general one for 'low' DPs in SR4, cropping up with various NPCs, drones, etc. *shrug* I dunno what a satisfying version is (including the RAW option).

In which case they'd have some dice left over to roll to perceive things the same way they do if they're dealing with smoke, astrally perceiving, etc. The only example I can think of for VR and world interaction is the PersonaFix program which allows the person to use their body and get sensory data (at the standard -6).

I could see an argument for if you still have the safety on that it would block signals both ways but if you have the signal off so you can still walk around then you should still have a connection with the rest of your body, its just hard to focus on it with VR flooding your mind.

AFAIK, the RAS Override only does one thing: turns off your muscles (as when humans sleep, typically). Sensory info is still incoming from your body whether the RASO is working or not, but it is drowned out by the much 'louder' VR simsense.

Yeah, thats the way we play it, you can still operate and detect stuff with your body regardless of the override. Our GM has always been more than happy to have the techno/hacker/rigger types in VR mode and stumbling around in the runs that require it than protected by cocoon inside an armored car or at home or hacking in AR with wired reflexes cyber.

To stick with the audio example, reliably drowning out normal sound levels with more sound pressure would quickly lead to hearing damage. Since AFAIK simsense does not lead to people "burning out" their senses, I'd conclude that a sim module turns down the natural senses rather than feeding crazy high signal levels to the brain. Unless you slot 2XS...

The result fro the discussion at hand remains the same, though: Normal sensory input is below the perception threshold unless it is really strong. And even if somebody kicks your meat body in the nuts, you'd still need to figure out that the pain you feel is not part of the sim signal.

Hm...I don't know. You can actually develop an addiction to Hot Sim VR, and with higher and higher levels of addiction you can finally burn out on it. It makes sense if your constantly using BTL's that they'd really start to screw with your nervous system.

That's why it's just a metaphor, Sengir. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) There's nothing in the books that suggests the matrix gear does (or even *can*) 'turn down/off' your senses. If they could, you wouldn't need a pain editor. Instead, it says this: "Perceiving the VR Matrix in its full glory overwhelms the physical senses." Regardless, my point there was that the RASO turns off just your *muscles*. We know it doesn't turn *off* your senses, if it has any effect on them at all.

Yeah, you missed the point there, but thanks for playing, Grammar Nazi.

And there you go again, pissing other people of. Is it a hobby for you?
Phlapjack77 and _Pax_ have a very valid point. Your word usage was off and it was pointed out fairly diplomatically. And all you can do is piss in his (their?) Wheaties about it.

Um. He admitted it was his hobby and goal last time, TJ. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Except for what I already wrote: simsense does not render one deaf and blind after jacking out, not even temporarily. As for the Pain Editor, that one is obviously far more specific (and therefore complicated) than shutting off all senses...


PS: "Grammar" seems to be another word our resident troll does not understand. If anything, Pax is a Semantics Nazi...and me too, I guess, but given my nationality being a Nazi on the internet is somewhat axiomatic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I don't understand your last comment, Sengir. What point does "simsense does not render one deaf and blind after jacking out, not even temporarily" refer to? Are you agreeing with me ('matrix gear has no effect on your senses'), or are you still trying to extend the metaphor beyond its domain?

If simsense simply drowned out the natural senses with "moa dakka", jacking out would leave the character severely impaired until (if ever) the brain has adapted to lower signal levels again. Since that does not happen, simsense obviously still works as it did in the 2060s: "ASIST circuitry includes a reticular-activation system override (RAS). The RAS override suppresses sensory signals from the user’s meat body, freeing him to concentrate fully on the simsense experience of the Matrix" (Matrix, p. 19).

Only if the brain works like that in SR. Don't dirty this with real science, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

That's an excellent reference, and I stand corrected. (Assuming we can cross editions, etc.).

Because SR4 rules say you *can* sense things from the body, that means the RAS override indeed partially suppresses meat senses… and, I guess, *also* disables your muscles? For whatever reason, I thought that was its primary function, and I thought it was referenced as such in SR4. If so, it means you can disable the anti-muscles function, but you can't turn off the '-6 to senses' function (even though the writers across the editions seem to have mixed them up).

Found it, twice on this page:
And on 328:
So. If it still does what you quoted from the previous edition, it must somehow not be disabled despite the whole unit being disabled; or, using a disabled RAS override actually removes the -6 penalty altogether?

Does this question have any bearing on wound mods, given that you're 'suppressing sensory signals from the user’s meat body'?

Funny, I thought "the point" of using a language, was to clearly and comprehensibly relay your meaning?

Or perhaps I should take a cue from your ... "creative" ... use of words, despite their proper meaning?

Aberrant, Ocular forsee "the tip" for account a diction, abide to emphatically including distinctly displace your designate?

(Achievement Get: Thesaurus Rex)

Honestly, I'd've ignored the word-mis-usage in the first place; who knows if anyone here speaks English as their netive language, or even fluently (and lack of fluency can afflict even some of my fellow native-English speakers). And god knows I make enough mistakes (especially typos and misspellings) of my own, that I try never to be the one to start throwing rocks. Glass houses, and all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

However, copping an attitude about it, with the whole "oh you're just too slow to understand me" thing? Yeah, that I won't let pass. >:/