I think it's worth the buy even if you have T:W--a lot has happened in-game between the two--as long as you expect to use extreme enviroments in your games. It's not as good value for money as other recent releases though--for me, it's about the same value as Spy Games: enough to get the pdf and ignore the print.

There's only two pieces of desert gear I think, and they're entirely new (there's even a mention how there's already enough desert gear).
As for the arctic gear...there's some overlap with existing gear, but most of the new stuff seem different enough to warrant it's existance--there's certainly a bunch of quite useful new stuff, if you're planning more than a quick trip to the cold and ice.

I should also add that there's a new adept power (Maintain Warmth - not sure if that was really needed, though, with Temperature Tolerance already in existance)

Oh, and there IS some space-tech:
- an armored space suit with strength enhancements
- two space drones (one recon and one rescue/salvage)
- a new piece of cyberware (Freefall Balance Augmentor - advanced version of the regular one, useful in zero-G).
- a grenade launcher for space operations (with a multi-fire option to shoot at several targets at once)

And there ARE some rules for space in the general Game Information section (times for space travel; rules for solar flares, weapons fire, hull breaches, space movement...)

A table of contents could've been helpful though...


Very true.

Indeed they do, but the company has to price the book AND pdf so they get those flat rate costs covered on the expected total sales.

If the print book is $35, and the pdf $5, that may very well affect the sale of print editions negatively, reducing the overall revenue for the book. On the other hand, if the pdf is priced too high, fewer people will get both and that will also affect income negatively.

Selling the pdf is only 'free' if you expect to get full return on sale of the print copies -- otherwise, the sale of pdf's is included in the expected return a of a book.

Also, remember that they sell pdf's through both drivethru and battlecorps. Costs may be different on those sites. Plus, producing a pdf for sale isn't necessarily the exact same as producing it for printing only - there are features and solutions you can ignore if the only goal is to produce a print copy.

That said, I find $25 for the pdf a bit steep, and it will result in me likely not getting the print version.

A lot of people - I want to say "most" but I can't back up a hard number - will not buy BOTH a PDF and a Dead Tree Edition of the same book. I know I don't; I buy exclusively PDF, whenever and wherever possible, nowadays: I like carrying a one-pound eReader a lot more than the 60+ pound pile of hardcopy books I used to lug around to games. So, Catalyst got $25 out of me for the PDF ... they won't be getting $35 for the hardcopy. Thus, the PDF has to compeltely recoup my part of the "paying the artists and writers" thing.

I'm dead certain I'm not alone in that, either.



And each book - hardcopy and digital alike - has to contribute towards those expenses. Yes, PDFs don't bear the costs of physical production ... but they still carry their share of the writing-and-art production expenses.

Yeah but the book prices didn't go DOWN when the PDF's started being sold did they?

If the book cost (( just an example)) $20
When they started selling PDFs (( again just an example for ease)) for $10

The Book cost didn't drop to $15. Did it? No.. it didn't.

Book prices are set on the cost to publish the book. The costs needed to pay the writers, artists, editors and printers. The PDF 'cost recoup' hasn't factored into book prices, or book prices WOULD have gone down when they started making money off PDF's. (( Which would have been nice))

They're now charging MORE for the SAME amount of book (( well 2 pages less but why quibble)), and charging MORE for the same PDF, a PDF that doesnt' factor into how much it costs to produce the book at all. Adobie has a 'Convert to PDF' button. Making PDF's don't cost anything, most especially when you send your book to the printer via PDF form.

Had the physical book prices have dipped and been reduced when PDF format had been introduced, it might have been one thing, but they didn't. And now they've jumped 30% and (( we've had no offical answer.)) the only 'possible' answer put forward is 'More art'. Inversely that means "less content".

it's not a price jump that has been adequately explained for me. They surely didn't suddenly start paying their artists and writers. THIRTY PERCENT MORE for the --exact-- same amount of work. Nor did the printer's jump 30% more to produce the same book they did 3 months ago.

I will note I was only offering up some possibilities, not offering up an actual explanation. Neither I nor any of the other freelancers are involved in the marketing side of things, so we don't ultimately know why any decisions are made.

Bull

Note that Street Legends is also $25 for the pdf (but it does have 16 more pages and more art...)

/facepalm

...

Let's say you produce a new RPG game. You hire two artists for pictures and illustrations, paying each of them $6,000. You hire three writers to actually churn out all the text, paying each of them $6,000. A layout artist is another $4,000. And finally, an Editor/Proofreader costs you $6,000. That's $40,000 in total costs. (Keep inmind, those are completely made-up numbers; the actual costs are probably higher in ALL cases).

You have to make $40,000 just to break even - and it doesn't matter if that money comes purely from PDFs, purely from Hardcopies, or from a mix of both. If you want to make a good profit - say, 50%? You need to take in $60,000.

If you expect to sell 5,000 copies of your new game, then each one has to bring $12 to you. That doesn't mean you slap a $12 pricetag on them ... not if you intend to get your book into game stores other than your own direct-sales eStore!! Because those people need to make money on the deal, too!

And even hardcopy books ... you know how the book trade works? I do; I worked in a bookstore for a while, in my twenties. Whatever the cover price is, the distributor gives the bookseller a % discount ... 30% is about typical, I believe. That means, the STORE is going to get 30% of the cover price. Oh, and don't forget the distributor, they're going to want 20% or more, too. Which means, 50% of the cover price? WHOOSH, gone, never gets into your hands. (Yes, PDFs have the advantage of one less middle-man. But it's not a complete elimination of this expense.)

Now, printing and shipping each of those hardcopies will cost ... let's call it $3 each; it's not a high-volume print run. So, each of those copies has to bring $15 into your hands. Your cover price will need to be about twice that amount, or $30.

Meanwhile, that PDF only faces a 30% "seller's cut"; $12 is 70% of about $17.

(Now the hard part: you have to decide how many Hardcopies you need to print, to meet that target of 5,000 sales while neither running out of inventory, nor overproducing and wiping out your profits.)



Both statements assume facts not in evidence.

Regardless, I'll tell you where the price increase DOES most likely come from: they don't expect to sell as many of these books, as they sold of prior books. Hard economic times are hitting EVERY corner of the global economy. That means we gamers are getting less inclined to open our wallets for "everything in sight". And thus, they expect to sell fewer copies of nay particular product.

In my example above, instead of 5K books needing to make $60K ... maybe it's only 3K books, with the same financial targets. That'll jack prices pr-book up, right there.

Yes, PDF included.

That's cool man. In one of my posts I accknowledged that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Unfortunately for a PDF, it's a reality that the market isn't "What the consumer is willing to pay", it's how much you can charge for something they can just as easily obtain by stealing. It's my natural inclination to just get the product for free over the interwebz, it's only my fear of God that prevents it.

Still. I bought Twilight Horizon. I printed out a chunk of it and bring it to the bi-weekly game so that my players can read it without having to steal. Would the company lose any money if I just sent all my friends a copy of the pdf? Extremely doubtful. There's still a difference there, though, and it's a line I try my hardest not to cross.

Your idea of a writer's payment are totally off (as in "way too high").

Um.. .No. You'vve way way way WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY overshot there. You don't pay Artists $6,000 for a book. They're paid by the peices of artwork and how many are in the book, full page, half page or quarter. You're not paying $12,000 for art for a book.

Writers are paid by the page or by word. A 168 page book, taking off cover and title page, table of contents ect, you're looking at 160-165 pages. Thhen you take out pages for art and you're down to 100 -120 pages. Divide by three,
I'm FAIRLY CERTAIN, that writers are not getting $6,000 for 40 pages. Perhaps a couple of writers here can chime in but I really do not think they're getting paid anything like Six GRAND for 40 pages of game book writing?

Nor are you paying FOUR THOUSAND DOLLARS to lay out a book. Nor are you paying SIX GRAND to proof read. Your numbers are inflated at every point. Do you really think someone is getting paid Six thousand dollars to proof read 100 to 120 pages? LOL You're paying a proof reader FIFTY DOLLARS A PAGE.

Your numbers are crazytalk. But I'll say they look impressive... So would they be if you said a BILLION dollars or a BAJILLION dollars.



Do you really think profit margins are 50%?



Actually they do. Drive Through doesn't charge you anything. They just take money off the top of the sale. So if you want $7 for your book, Drive through will sell it for $10. If you want $10, they sell it for $13. If you don't sell anything you aren't charged anything. (( Did research on this when Palladium made noise about PDF's being the EEEEEEEEEEEBIL))



Which doesn't address my point. They did all the above for "X" 3 months ago... Now they need X+30% to do it now. For no added benifit of return. If you raise your prices by THIRTY PERCENT there had better be a damn good reason.



So your answer is, "They're not going to buy as many as they did 3 months ago, so we're going to overcharge 30%, to make up for losses, for the same amount of product?

Screw that.




Not for nothing but one person above pointed out, "The book companies problems are not my problems" As a buier my problem is 1) being able to buy the book, and 2) Feeling I got what I paid for.

If you give me 5 books in a row, at 150 to 170 pages, for $18 (Pdf), then on the 6th book raise prices by 30%.... I BETTER be getting 30% more SOMETHING. And in this we're not. We're getting the same ammount of pages. More art only cuts it if there's more pages. There's not. if the book was 30% bigger, I'd look at it differently.

It's not.

They're saying I have to pay 30% more, for the same thing.

Why?

Why should I?

Times are hard all over but as pointed out, they didn't give their staff a 30% raise over the past 3 months that need to be made up somewhere. Nor has paper and bindings suddenly become precious materials. "Inflation" didn't jump 30% in 3 months.

You make a good example, though your numbers are an order of magnitude or two off. Most RPG companies can't afford to spend $6k total for the text of a book, let alone three writers at $6k apiece for one book. They'd go broke. Hell, I know a couple novelists who barely got that as an advance on their first novels.

I do not kid when I say that we don't do this for the money. It's nice and we don't turn it down, but we do this because we love the game and feel we have something to contribute. It does not pay a living wage unless you can really crank shit out.

If I didn't think it would just make things worse, I'd post an illustrative example, but it would just make things worse, so I think I'll just shut up at this point.

Anybody going to give some idea of what to expect in it? Particularly space? My teams seem to end up involved in space a disproportionate amount of time. How about a bit more in depth of a review? Anything that isn't math. I just got my degree, I don't want to do math for a while.

Someone is bound to try and turn that into some kind of mech...

"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -- Aristotle

It is not "fear of God" that disinclines me to piracy of game PDFs. It is simply an inclination to be a decent, moral, honest person. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And I did state they were for illustrative purposes only.



If DTRPG is charging a flat $3 fee, that wouldbe a major departure from the traditional way the book trade works. And since DTRPG is owned by a book distributor? That wouldbe very surprising to me.

Again, traditinally the seller asks "what is the MSRP?" ... and then takes a PERCENTAGE of that price.


3 months ago was exactly that: 3 months ago. That was THEN, this is NOW.


Then find a new hobby and never buy a small-press publication - which most certainly does include all of the RPG (micro-)industry - ever, ever again.


If the publisher doesn't make enough money, they stop making new books. That is, or should be, something you consider "your problem".


You have an absolutely collossal sense of entitlement, don't you?

Clue time: prices inevitably go up. In the publishing business, they don't tend to rise by 5% at a time - companies hold their prices at the old price point for as long as they can, accepting ever-dwindling profits. But eventually, they face a crisis point: either they raise prices, or they go out of business. Generally, they prefer the former over theltter. And typically, the price increase is a big "jump" - to a level they think they can hold onto for another long stretch.


Maybe sales have DROPPED by some sizeable percentage?

Maybe places like DTRPG want a bigger cut of the action?

Yeah but you also stated you thought they were alot more. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



They do to. My point was for an example. DT takes between 15 and 30%. So.. knowing that as a book seller, if YOU want 10, they charge 13, so you get your 10 and they get their 3. It's an example. Not a direct pricing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



Very observant. Now. Tell me what's different other than 'Time has passed' to indicate I should pay 30% more for the same amount of product. Why have the prices on the book raised almost half in 3 months? Did all the artists die? Did the writers die? Is paper more scarce? I'm thinkin' no.... so please, show me why the book is worth 30% more today, than it was day before yesterday.



There's the sort of answer the fans and customers want to hear. "Don't like it? SCREW YOU!!! THEN DON'T BUY OUR STUFF! LEAVE! WE DON"T WANT YA!!!!" Some how I doubt that'll be the tactic that Catalyst chooses to endorse. As for "small press" It depends on how you define it. They just pulled in almost two million for a game that they were shootin' for 400,000. I don't concider that a small thing.



If they make LESS money because they OVER CHARGE they stop making books too. But again. I'm back to "Why is the publisher suddenly not making enough money, that they feel the need to jack prices 30%?" If X was ok for all of last year, and nothing has changed why do they need X+30% today?

You clearly are not in business as your replies seem to be 'screw the customer. They'll pay what ever we charge or we'll just quit and go home'.



About MY MONEY? Yeah.. I do. So do you.

If I charge you three bucks for your lunch, today... tomorrow, the next day and next day and next day, then suddenly I go "Four bucks" and you go "But it's the same lunch it was yesterday" and I go "Yeah? That was yesterday this is today" are you just going to nnod and go "Oh your right. That was yesterday, today is today, here take the 30% raise in price for the same exact product?

Doubtful. Now.. the difference between 3 and 4 bucks is just a buck, but that's the concept. You might just pay it as it's just a buck, but you're not going to like it.

Now take it up to 18 bucks. Not exactly pocket change for most of us. And charge 18, and 18, and 18, and 18.... then suddenly charge 25 for the same thing. 30% more... are you just going to smile and nod like a cow and pay out with no explination or reason?

"Entitled"? It's MY money. Tell me why I suddenly have to pay a third more for the same product. Or... I'm not going to pay more for the same thing. "Cuz we said so" doesn't fly.



Cite your source. Show me where this is industry wide standard.... to hold prices the same then screw your customers to the tune of 30% across the board.
I'm not going to hold my breath as you won't find it. Books do NOT tend to jump that drasticlly in cost. Know how I know? I have thousands and thousands of books. I have over 10K in JUST Role playing books. My house is lined with book shelves along the walls, down the halls, in the bed rooms, in the bathrooms, in the basement. We've got big giant plastic totes full of books we don't feel we're going to re-read any time soon.
Have books gone up over the years? Yeah they have. Inflation does happen.

Does it happen 30% overnight? No. Even the blood sucking gas companies don't hit you that hard. A paperback book is about $8 if you buy it full price these days.(( noone does, they buy um discounted at walmart or on Amazon... that's why so many book stores are closing)) They were $5 when I was a kid. The inflation didn't jump 30% at one time.



30% in 3 months? We've seen no indication of that what so ever. Even if it did, a short term drop doesn't nessitate slamming your customers in responce. Only a long term drop would justify that, and even then, you jump 30% you need to state why. From all indications though Catalyst is doing great in their own sales figures. They really DID just bring in close to 2 million dollars for the shadowrun game. They just revamped their website. They speak of how well they're doing and how well sales are.



And maybe my action figures get up and have parties when I leave the room. There's no indication that they do, but maybe they do.

You can specualte if you like but it's just speculation.

People like Bull and Patrick? It's cool when they offer possibilities, as they're in the loop (( at least a bit)). But I don't HOLD THEM TO IT. as they aren't making the calls for prices or anything. They can give insight, but not difinative answers.

I'm asking "WHY".

Why the prices went up by 30% between one book and the next
Why should I pay 30% more of my hard earned money for the same thing I paid 30% less for in Feb.

I know that most people here are fans, but if you look at who started the thread, they all aren't.

You may notice how quite it is from that vector?

ugh, after 10 hours spent drafting responses to discovery motions I thought I would have some solace here. I should have known better!

Maybe this has something to do with it?

I actually lost money on Safehouses, for example.

No they didn't, thats not Catalyst Gamelabs project in anyway.

If you want $10, and they're going to charge 50%? Then settign the price at $13 will not meet your wants. 30% of $13 is $3.90, leaving you with $9.10

Percentages aren't interchangable in either direction like that. You'd have to take your target, and divide by 0.7.


I don't know. And, this is largely the point: neither do you. Neitehr of us has access to CGL's ledger books. We don't know where the costs have been, or are going. Yet you continue to assume that the price increase is unjustified. An assumption made with absolutely no corroborating evidence whatsoever.


In the bookselling industry? Print runs measured in less than seven figures are "small press". I would be surprised if any single Shadowrun 4 supplement got a print run of more than 50K to 100K.

Oh, and by the way? Shadowrun Returns is not from Catalyst Game Labs. Apples and oranges, Renraku and Ares.


See that bit I turned red, there? Yeah: assumes facts not in evidence.


About my money, yes. About the price on a PDF to the point I start levelling implied accusations of unescused greed at a company, just because they didn't keep a product's price as low as I might have wanted? Hell no.


In as vapid and empty-headed a manner as your strawman analogy describes? No. But I'm not going to assume you're "just greedy", either. I'll make a new comparison between the product and the price, and make a new decision as to whether or not I wish to continue purchasing at the higher level.

I certainly won't stamp my little foot, raise my little voice, and annoucen to everyone that I'm taking my little ball home, over it.


Don't stop there. Take it up to $300. If the price goes up by $100, you know what? I'll react the same.


But it's NOT your Book/PDF/etc.


The entire history of selling books. I have a book - it was my father's when he was a boy - with a cover price of $0.25 ... a book of the same size (more Novella than Novel) and relative print quality today? $5 or $6, bare minimum. And yes, the book is from the early 40's, some seventy years ago. But, book prices don't climb in increments of $0.05 or $0.10; they jump $0.50 or $1 at a time. That's just paperbacks, mind. Hardcovers tend to jump by larger margins.


Actually, yes they did. They were $5 for a very long time - then they jumped to a range between $6 and $7 for a long time. Then, they jumped to $8. They did not go to $5.10, $5.31, $5.44, etc. They don't rise in small increments, they rise in jumps. Sometimes, yes, 30%. Or more.

You wrote Safehouses, at least in part?

I'm sorry to hear you didn't at least break even. I actually rather like that mini-supplement, as a nice tie-in for the Advanced Lifestyle Rules.

Pfft, says you. I've seen management at work back when I was a cubicle-jockey. Every decision made by anyone called a "boss," there's a dartboard or a ouija board involved somehow, I'm sure. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Hrm. I apparently missed that lecture when I took Applied Management Accounting last semester.