Melee vs. Unarmed |
Melee vs. Unarmed |
Jun 12 2012, 03:12 PM
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#1
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Running Target Group: Banned Posts: 1,105 Joined: 23-August 10 Member No.: 18,961 |
Did a search. Our search feature blows.
Given the vast amount of skills for hand to hand melee adepts, (Killing hands + Elemental strike) is there any reason for an adept to use a sword instead of a fist? |
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Jun 12 2012, 03:14 PM
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#2
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
Weapon foci, and you don't have to blow all your PP on hand mods.
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Jun 12 2012, 03:25 PM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Banned Posts: 1,105 Joined: 23-August 10 Member No.: 18,961 |
Well, put it this way. It's 1 PP to ignore all armor, and you'll never have to pay karma or bond with anything.
I mean, common sense says that two equally skilled fighters a few feet from each other, the guy with the sword is gonna win, but SR just doesn't handle that well. (To be fair, very few games do) |
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Jun 12 2012, 03:38 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 209 Joined: 6-June 12 Member No.: 52,675 |
Pretty sure the guy with the sword would have an advantage, which I believe SR does have, REACH attribute on melee weapons.
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Jun 12 2012, 03:46 PM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Banned Posts: 1,105 Joined: 23-August 10 Member No.: 18,961 |
Right. It's just done abstractly. You could argue that everything in SR is an abstraction, but that's a silly argument. Two cars couldn't be in the same space at the same time, for instance, despite chase combat and driving all being abstractions.
A more elegant way to handle it would be not allowing a lower reach attack to take place until the higher reach has had a chance to act. Almost like an AoO. |
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Jun 12 2012, 03:59 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 209 Joined: 6-June 12 Member No.: 52,675 |
Suppose elegance depends on the eye of the beholder.
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Jun 12 2012, 04:46 PM
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#7
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,507 Joined: 11-November 08 Member No.: 16,582 |
Another reason to use weapons is the two weapons style from Arsenal. Always using Full Defense while attacking is a nice boost to defense, and opens up other maneuvers.
Generally though, the Unarmed Melee Adept is a staple of SR. The Armed Melee Adept not so much. |
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Jun 12 2012, 04:48 PM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Banned Posts: 1,105 Joined: 23-August 10 Member No.: 18,961 |
Hrmmz..
Would striking in melee in pitch black conditions/blindfolded count as "blind fire"? Same question for throwing weapons. |
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Jun 12 2012, 06:45 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 315 Joined: 6-August 06 Member No.: 9,032 |
Yep, blind fire applies just the same in melee and with throwing. I have a blind adept who focusses on ignoring that -6 modifier while his favorite weapons are smoke grenades tied to his belt (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
I also want to repeat Dakka Dakka: If you go armed close combat adept, it is BECAUSE of two weapon style. It's just so good. And just 4 Karma o_O |
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Jun 12 2012, 07:40 PM
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#10
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,700 Joined: 1-July 10 Member No.: 18,778 |
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Jun 12 2012, 07:44 PM
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#11
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,507 Joined: 11-November 08 Member No.: 16,582 |
I think he is talking about Killing Hands and Elemental Strike: Sound.
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Jun 12 2012, 07:49 PM
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#12
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,700 Joined: 1-July 10 Member No.: 18,778 |
That might be true, but if he thinks that's the case he needs to reread Elemental Strike for all the drawbacks it comes with.
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Jun 12 2012, 07:51 PM
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#13
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,507 Joined: 11-November 08 Member No.: 16,582 |
Are you talking about activation and duration?
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Jun 12 2012, 08:02 PM
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#14
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,575 Joined: 5-February 10 Member No.: 18,115 |
The adept powers and even the martial arts available do tend to favor unarmed. But now I'm curious how they match up.
1 - Critical Strike adds DV to unarmed attacks, while most weapons have (STR/2) + X, but with X being based on size, typically. 2 - Killing Hands allows you to choose between Stun and Physical. Most weapons are simply Physical. KH also allows you to ignore ItNW. 3 - Distance Strike turns your unarmed attacks into ranged attacks. Nothing similar can be done with melee weapons, other than throwing them. 4 - Elemental Strike gives you the elemental effect of your choice, which can get crazy. Only similar ability for melee involves spells. 5 - Nerve Strike allows you to reduce an enemy's Agility or Reaction instead of deal damage. Only similar ability for melee involves spells. 6 - Penetrating Strike grants your unarmed attack armor penetration. Melee weapons have their own, but it is based on size, typically. 7 - Smashing Blow multiplies base DV x2 for attacking barriers. Not terribly impressive, often matched by melee weapon DV. Unarmed does seem to come out a bit better in general via adept powers. We also know that most of the martial arts benefit unarmed, but there are at least a few that benefit melee weapons. Unarmed is of course entirely concealable, whereas weapons (particularly larger and more powerful ones) are not. Unarmed also cannot be disarmed or confiscated or destroyed. Melee weapons can, however, be modified, often negating these problems to some extent (Chameleon Coating, Gecko Grip, etc). And melee weapons also eat up far fewer power points, leaving more room for utility powers, or maybe even other combat powers that benefit both types, like another rank of Improved Reflexes or a higher rating of Improved Combat Ability, etc. And of course, as others mentioned, you can get a weapon focus, you can use dual wielding for extra defense or even for twice the number of attacks per turn with a split pool. I dunno. I think they're pretty close, but fill different niches. Unarmed adepts focus their powers more on their combat power, whereas a melee adept is probably going to diversify their abilities a bit more, either into more tactical combat choices or perhaps even into social or utility powers. And that's worth noting - if we're simply looking at combat potential, you'd probably want to go with a gun adept for maximum combat effectiveness anyway. ~Umi |
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Jun 12 2012, 08:11 PM
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#15
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Running Target Group: Banned Posts: 1,105 Joined: 23-August 10 Member No.: 18,961 |
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Jun 12 2012, 08:25 PM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Banned Posts: 1,105 Joined: 23-August 10 Member No.: 18,961 |
I dunno. I think they're pretty close, but fill different niches. Unarmed adepts focus their powers more on their combat power, whereas a melee adept is probably going to diversify their abilities a bit more, either into more tactical combat choices or perhaps even into social or utility powers. And that's worth noting - if we're simply looking at combat potential, you'd probably want to go with a gun adept for maximum combat effectiveness anyway. ~Umi Well, putting it another way, if I wanted to spend 2 PP on combat powers, and 4 on 'Being a crazy adept', I could easily get +4 DV, armor ignoring strikes if I went unarmed, and if I went Melee, it seems the best I could do offensively would be a +4 DP. Let's assume a damage mitigating pool of 16 for the bad guys, and 4 strength and a 1 handed sword for the melee adept. Let's also buy hits, for the hell of it. 8 (Skills and Spec) + 4 (Agility) = 12 dice, or 3 hits for unarmed, and 4 hits for swords, thanks to the improved weapon skill. (Yes, I know you can bump both of those up a bit.) The Sword is going to do 9P, bought hits from armor knocking that down to 5p. The Fist is going to do 9p, bought hits from armor being ignored due to the elemental strike. This leads me to believe that a melee weapon using adept wishing to use power points on their fighting style of choice must be defensively focused to get a good value for their power points, which supports Umi's posit that melee weapon users would also be more dynamic and mobile with their selection of powers in the first place. |
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Jun 12 2012, 08:30 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 386 Joined: 27-February 12 From: Nebraska, USA Member No.: 50,732 |
Well, putting it another way, if I wanted to spend 2 PP on combat powers, and 4 on 'Being a crazy adept', I could easily get +4 DV, armor ignoring strikes if I went unarmed, and if I went Melee, it seems the best I could do offensively would be a +4 DP. Let's assume a damage mitigating pool of 16 for the bad guys, and 4 strength and a 1 handed sword for the melee adept. Let's also buy hits, for the hell of it. 8 (Skills and Spec) + 4 (Agility) = 12 dice, or 3 hits for unarmed, and 4 hits for swords, thanks to the improved weapon skill. (Yes, I know you can bump both of those up a bit.) The Sword is going to do 9P, bought hits from armor knocking that down to 5p. The Fist is going to do 9p, bought hits from armor being ignored due to the elemental strike. This leads me to believe that a melee weapon using adept wishing to use power points on their fighting style of choice must be defensively focused to get a good value for their power points, which supports Umi's posit that melee weapon users would also be more dynamic and mobile with their selection of powers in the first place. Just a couple of quick things to throw in. Reach for weapon and most of the weapons have some kind of armor pen. and then of course you have to add in that you can make* the weapon into a focus and personalized grip. you cant do either of those for hands. And the elemental strike you have to activate and it lasts a limited time. Situationaly the unarmed would be better, but overall the melee would be better. *=edit |
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Jun 12 2012, 08:35 PM
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#18
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,575 Joined: 5-February 10 Member No.: 18,115 |
Also, only one elemental type actually ignores armor - sonic. It also has other absurd benefits that make it really outlandish compared to every other type of elemental effect, and make it a strong candidate for GM fiat or houserules. The rest just halve armor and add other minor effects, with many of them doing Stun damage only.
~Umi |
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Jun 12 2012, 08:36 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 386 Joined: 27-February 12 From: Nebraska, USA Member No.: 50,732 |
Also, only one elemental type actually ignores armor - sonic. It also has other absurd benefits that make it really outlandish compared to every other type of elemental effect, and make it a strong candidate for GM fiat or houserules. The rest just halve armor and add other minor effects, with many of them doing Stun damage only. ~Umi LOL...sorry Umi...i had to laugh at one thing... "just halve armor" thats all, no big (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) |
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Jun 12 2012, 08:37 PM
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#20
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Running Target Group: Banned Posts: 1,105 Joined: 23-August 10 Member No.: 18,961 |
Just a couple of quick things to throw in. Reach for weapon and most of the weapons have some kind of armor pen. and then of course you have to add in that you can make* the weapon into a focus and personalized grip. you cant do either of those for hands. And the elemental strike you have to activate and it lasts a limited time. Situationaly the unarmed would be better, but overall the melee would be better. *=edit The focus is going to cost/BP, so I hadn't included it. I also wasn't aware that personalized grip had an effect on Melee, outside of recoil comp. The 'Limited time' that Elemental Strike lasts equates to 6 combat turns. That tends to be enough, but you're also correct that I didn't apply reach. To fix that, Unarmed = 9p Sword = 5.25p |
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Jun 12 2012, 08:38 PM
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#21
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,575 Joined: 5-February 10 Member No.: 18,115 |
@VykosDarkSoul
In comparison to sonic, it isn't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Also there's no reason you couldn't achieve the same effect on a melee weapon through other means: spells, enchanting, taser weapons, etc. @almost normal Personalized Grip on a melee weapon gives +1 to your dice pool. ~Umi |
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Jun 12 2012, 08:39 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 386 Joined: 27-February 12 From: Nebraska, USA Member No.: 50,732 |
The focus is going to cost/BP, so I hadn't included it. I also wasn't aware that personalized grip had an effect on Melee, outside of recoil comp. The 'Limited time' that Elemental Strike lasts equates to 6 combat turns. That tends to be enough, but you're also correct that I didn't apply reach. To fix that, Unarmed = 9p Sword = 5.25p Personalized grip adds 1 recoil comp for ranged or 1 die for Melee |
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Jun 12 2012, 08:39 PM
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#23
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Running Target Group: Banned Posts: 1,105 Joined: 23-August 10 Member No.: 18,961 |
Also, only one elemental type actually ignores armor - sonic. It also has other absurd benefits that make it really outlandish compared to every other type of elemental effect, and make it a strong candidate for GM fiat or houserules. The rest just halve armor and add other minor effects, with many of them doing Stun damage only. ~Umi We can't really argue what's a strong candidate for houserules. Practically all of magic would be tossed out the window. (Double digit damage from spells resisted with only Body + Non-existent counterspelling, for instance) |
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Jun 12 2012, 08:40 PM
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#24
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Running Target Group: Banned Posts: 1,105 Joined: 23-August 10 Member No.: 18,961 |
@VykosDarkSoul In comparison to sonic, it isn't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Also there's no reason you couldn't achieve the same effect on a melee weapon through other means: spells, enchanting, taser weapons, etc. ~Umi If the rules would support that, I'd be in favor. Dwarven Sonic Hammers ftw! |
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Jun 12 2012, 08:44 PM
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#25
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,575 Joined: 5-February 10 Member No.: 18,115 |
Personally, if I was building a melee adept I'd take the power points I saved on pure combat potential and use them for stealth. Might not do as much damage in direct combat, but I'd still be able to hold my own AND I'd be the sneakiest sneak that ever sneaked past a sneaking parlour.
~Umi |
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