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almost normal
Did a search. Our search feature blows.

Given the vast amount of skills for hand to hand melee adepts, (Killing hands + Elemental strike) is there any reason for an adept to use a sword instead of a fist?
Yerameyahu
Weapon foci, and you don't have to blow all your PP on hand mods.
almost normal
Well, put it this way. It's 1 PP to ignore all armor, and you'll never have to pay karma or bond with anything.

I mean, common sense says that two equally skilled fighters a few feet from each other, the guy with the sword is gonna win, but SR just doesn't handle that well. (To be fair, very few games do)
Jeremiah Kraye
Pretty sure the guy with the sword would have an advantage, which I believe SR does have, REACH attribute on melee weapons.
almost normal
Right. It's just done abstractly. You could argue that everything in SR is an abstraction, but that's a silly argument. Two cars couldn't be in the same space at the same time, for instance, despite chase combat and driving all being abstractions.

A more elegant way to handle it would be not allowing a lower reach attack to take place until the higher reach has had a chance to act. Almost like an AoO.
Jeremiah Kraye
Suppose elegance depends on the eye of the beholder.
Dakka Dakka
Another reason to use weapons is the two weapons style from Arsenal. Always using Full Defense while attacking is a nice boost to defense, and opens up other maneuvers.

Generally though, the Unarmed Melee Adept is a staple of SR. The Armed Melee Adept not so much.
almost normal
Hrmmz..

Would striking in melee in pitch black conditions/blindfolded count as "blind fire"? Same question for throwing weapons.
Xenefungus
Yep, blind fire applies just the same in melee and with throwing. I have a blind adept who focusses on ignoring that -6 modifier while his favorite weapons are smoke grenades tied to his belt wink.gif

I also want to repeat Dakka Dakka: If you go armed close combat adept, it is BECAUSE of two weapon style. It's just so good. And just 4 Karma o_O
UmaroVI
QUOTE (almost normal @ Jun 12 2012, 11:25 AM) *
Well, put it this way. It's 1 PP to ignore all armor, and you'll never have to pay karma or bond with anything.

Uh, what?
Dakka Dakka
I think he is talking about Killing Hands and Elemental Strike: Sound.
UmaroVI
That might be true, but if he thinks that's the case he needs to reread Elemental Strike for all the drawbacks it comes with.
Dakka Dakka
Are you talking about activation and duration?
Umidori
The adept powers and even the martial arts available do tend to favor unarmed. But now I'm curious how they match up.

1 - Critical Strike adds DV to unarmed attacks, while most weapons have (STR/2) + X, but with X being based on size, typically.
2 - Killing Hands allows you to choose between Stun and Physical. Most weapons are simply Physical. KH also allows you to ignore ItNW.
3 - Distance Strike turns your unarmed attacks into ranged attacks. Nothing similar can be done with melee weapons, other than throwing them.
4 - Elemental Strike gives you the elemental effect of your choice, which can get crazy. Only similar ability for melee involves spells.
5 - Nerve Strike allows you to reduce an enemy's Agility or Reaction instead of deal damage. Only similar ability for melee involves spells.
6 - Penetrating Strike grants your unarmed attack armor penetration. Melee weapons have their own, but it is based on size, typically.
7 - Smashing Blow multiplies base DV x2 for attacking barriers. Not terribly impressive, often matched by melee weapon DV.

Unarmed does seem to come out a bit better in general via adept powers. We also know that most of the martial arts benefit unarmed, but there are at least a few that benefit melee weapons. Unarmed is of course entirely concealable, whereas weapons (particularly larger and more powerful ones) are not. Unarmed also cannot be disarmed or confiscated or destroyed.

Melee weapons can, however, be modified, often negating these problems to some extent (Chameleon Coating, Gecko Grip, etc). And melee weapons also eat up far fewer power points, leaving more room for utility powers, or maybe even other combat powers that benefit both types, like another rank of Improved Reflexes or a higher rating of Improved Combat Ability, etc. And of course, as others mentioned, you can get a weapon focus, you can use dual wielding for extra defense or even for twice the number of attacks per turn with a split pool.

I dunno. I think they're pretty close, but fill different niches. Unarmed adepts focus their powers more on their combat power, whereas a melee adept is probably going to diversify their abilities a bit more, either into more tactical combat choices or perhaps even into social or utility powers. And that's worth noting - if we're simply looking at combat potential, you'd probably want to go with a gun adept for maximum combat effectiveness anyway.

~Umi
almost normal
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jun 12 2012, 02:44 PM) *
I think he is talking about Killing Hands and Elemental Strike: Sound.


It's been a while, but I think I was thinking of ES : Sand
almost normal
QUOTE (Umidori @ Jun 12 2012, 03:02 PM) *
I dunno. I think they're pretty close, but fill different niches. Unarmed adepts focus their powers more on their combat power, whereas a melee adept is probably going to diversify their abilities a bit more, either into more tactical combat choices or perhaps even into social or utility powers. And that's worth noting - if we're simply looking at combat potential, you'd probably want to go with a gun adept for maximum combat effectiveness anyway.

~Umi


Well, putting it another way, if I wanted to spend 2 PP on combat powers, and 4 on 'Being a crazy adept', I could easily get +4 DV, armor ignoring strikes if I went unarmed, and if I went Melee, it seems the best I could do offensively would be a +4 DP.

Let's assume a damage mitigating pool of 16 for the bad guys, and 4 strength and a 1 handed sword for the melee adept. Let's also buy hits, for the hell of it.

8 (Skills and Spec) + 4 (Agility) = 12 dice, or 3 hits for unarmed, and 4 hits for swords, thanks to the improved weapon skill. (Yes, I know you can bump both of those up a bit.)

The Sword is going to do 9P, bought hits from armor knocking that down to 5p.
The Fist is going to do 9p, bought hits from armor being ignored due to the elemental strike.

This leads me to believe that a melee weapon using adept wishing to use power points on their fighting style of choice must be defensively focused to get a good value for their power points, which supports Umi's posit that melee weapon users would also be more dynamic and mobile with their selection of powers in the first place.
VykosDarkSoul
QUOTE (almost normal @ Jun 12 2012, 03:25 PM) *
Well, putting it another way, if I wanted to spend 2 PP on combat powers, and 4 on 'Being a crazy adept', I could easily get +4 DV, armor ignoring strikes if I went unarmed, and if I went Melee, it seems the best I could do offensively would be a +4 DP.

Let's assume a damage mitigating pool of 16 for the bad guys, and 4 strength and a 1 handed sword for the melee adept. Let's also buy hits, for the hell of it.

8 (Skills and Spec) + 4 (Agility) = 12 dice, or 3 hits for unarmed, and 4 hits for swords, thanks to the improved weapon skill. (Yes, I know you can bump both of those up a bit.)

The Sword is going to do 9P, bought hits from armor knocking that down to 5p.
The Fist is going to do 9p, bought hits from armor being ignored due to the elemental strike.

This leads me to believe that a melee weapon using adept wishing to use power points on their fighting style of choice must be defensively focused to get a good value for their power points, which supports Umi's posit that melee weapon users would also be more dynamic and mobile with their selection of powers in the first place.


Just a couple of quick things to throw in. Reach for weapon and most of the weapons have some kind of armor pen. and then of course you have to add in that you can make* the weapon into a focus and personalized grip. you cant do either of those for hands. And the elemental strike you have to activate and it lasts a limited time. Situationaly the unarmed would be better, but overall the melee would be better.


*=edit
Umidori
Also, only one elemental type actually ignores armor - sonic. It also has other absurd benefits that make it really outlandish compared to every other type of elemental effect, and make it a strong candidate for GM fiat or houserules. The rest just halve armor and add other minor effects, with many of them doing Stun damage only.

~Umi
VykosDarkSoul
QUOTE (Umidori @ Jun 12 2012, 03:35 PM) *
Also, only one elemental type actually ignores armor - sonic. It also has other absurd benefits that make it really outlandish compared to every other type of elemental effect, and make it a strong candidate for GM fiat or houserules. The rest just halve armor and add other minor effects, with many of them doing Stun damage only.

~Umi


LOL...sorry Umi...i had to laugh at one thing...


"just halve armor"

thats all, no big nyahnyah.gif
almost normal
QUOTE (VykosDarkSoul @ Jun 12 2012, 04:30 PM) *
Just a couple of quick things to throw in. Reach for weapon and most of the weapons have some kind of armor pen. and then of course you have to add in that you can make* the weapon into a focus and personalized grip. you cant do either of those for hands. And the elemental strike you have to activate and it lasts a limited time. Situationaly the unarmed would be better, but overall the melee would be better.
*=edit


The focus is going to cost/BP, so I hadn't included it. I also wasn't aware that personalized grip had an effect on Melee, outside of recoil comp. The 'Limited time' that Elemental Strike lasts equates to 6 combat turns. That tends to be enough, but you're also correct that I didn't apply reach. To fix that,

Unarmed = 9p
Sword = 5.25p
Umidori
@VykosDarkSoul

In comparison to sonic, it isn't. wink.gif

Also there's no reason you couldn't achieve the same effect on a melee weapon through other means: spells, enchanting, taser weapons, etc.

@almost normal


Personalized Grip on a melee weapon gives +1 to your dice pool.

~Umi
VykosDarkSoul
QUOTE (almost normal @ Jun 12 2012, 03:37 PM) *
The focus is going to cost/BP, so I hadn't included it. I also wasn't aware that personalized grip had an effect on Melee, outside of recoil comp. The 'Limited time' that Elemental Strike lasts equates to 6 combat turns. That tends to be enough, but you're also correct that I didn't apply reach. To fix that,

Unarmed = 9p
Sword = 5.25p


Personalized grip adds 1 recoil comp for ranged or 1 die for Melee
almost normal
QUOTE (Umidori @ Jun 12 2012, 04:35 PM) *
Also, only one elemental type actually ignores armor - sonic. It also has other absurd benefits that make it really outlandish compared to every other type of elemental effect, and make it a strong candidate for GM fiat or houserules. The rest just halve armor and add other minor effects, with many of them doing Stun damage only.

~Umi


We can't really argue what's a strong candidate for houserules. Practically all of magic would be tossed out the window. (Double digit damage from spells resisted with only Body + Non-existent counterspelling, for instance)
almost normal
QUOTE (Umidori @ Jun 12 2012, 04:38 PM) *
@VykosDarkSoul

In comparison to sonic, it isn't. wink.gif

Also there's no reason you couldn't achieve the same effect on a melee weapon through other means: spells, enchanting, taser weapons, etc.

~Umi


If the rules would support that, I'd be in favor. Dwarven Sonic Hammers ftw!
Umidori
Personally, if I was building a melee adept I'd take the power points I saved on pure combat potential and use them for stealth. Might not do as much damage in direct combat, but I'd still be able to hold my own AND I'd be the sneakiest sneak that ever sneaked past a sneaking parlour.

~Umi
almost normal
QUOTE (Umidori @ Jun 12 2012, 03:44 PM) *
Personally, if I was building a melee adept I'd take the power points I saved on pure combat potential and use them for stealth. Might not do as much damage in direct combat, but I'd still be able to hold my own AND I'd be the sneakiest sneak that ever sneaked past a sneaking parlour.

~Umi


Unless someone looks Astrally. Then you light up like a torch. =/

Stupid magic.
Elfenlied
Note that Unarmed Adepts do have access to Weapon Foci thanks to Hardliner Gloves.
VykosDarkSoul
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jun 12 2012, 03:58 PM) *
Note that Unarmed Adepts do have access to Weapon Foci thanks to Hardliner Gloves.



worms...can of...opened! nyahnyah.gif
BishopMcQ
Elfenlied--Many of the threads I've read before seem to take the opinion that most of the Unarmed Adept powers don't work in conjunction with the Hardliner Gloves. (Killing Hands, Elemental Strike, Smashing Blow, etc.) YMMV in what you can convince your GM of.

Almost Normal--Without active foci, wouldn't the adept basically appear the same on the astral as a mundane sneaking around? Assensing can tell the difference, but they wouldn't glow any brighter than most folks.

almost normal
QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Jun 12 2012, 05:05 PM) *
Almost Normal--Without active foci, wouldn't the adept basically appear the same on the astral as a mundane sneaking around? Assensing can tell the difference, but they wouldn't glow any brighter than most folks.


I had figured that their active powers (which are most of them) would make them glow, much the same as a sustained spell. At the very least, their magic score would bump up the glow a bit.
Stahlseele
Fluff has it that every magically active thing glows like a little sun on the Astral.
Umidori
Ahh, that old argument. I'm not prepared to get into that in depth again right now.

I have to say that I've always found the rules for stealth WOEFULLY lacking. You'd think all the various editions they've put out, they'd have expanded upon stealth more than the stupid, vague blurb of a paragraph in SR4A, and actually directly spell out how it works for both physical and astral.

I will point out, however, that the SR4A section on Astral Perception says the following...

QUOTE (SR4A @ p. 182)
Like physical perception, a character using astral perception should not need to make a test to see things that are immediately obvious.

And a character who is infiltrating is NOT immediately obvious. They're staying out of line of sight, hiding behind things, generally avoiding being seen.

"But how can they avoid being seen by a spirit on the astral which they themselves cannot detect?", you may ask. The same way they avoid being seen by a physical foe under the effects of an Invisibility spell, or a physical foe camouflaged under the effects of the Disguise skill, or any other foe in any other situation.

A sneaking person rolls their Infilitration to determine how well, in abstract terms, they avoid being seen. Their opponent rolls their Perception or Assensing to determine how observant they are, in abstract terms, and whether they notice the sneaking person. Those are the rules. Everything else is fluff.

~Umi
almost normal
QUOTE (Umidori @ Jun 12 2012, 05:10 PM) *
Those are the rules. Everything else is fluff.
~Umi


Interactions between Astral activities and the Mundane are not, however. A torch in a hallway is obvious. A ninja sneaking down a hallway, by the universe, would be just as obvious on the astral, thanks to his glowing aura.

If you could show me otherwise, without ambiguous passages, you'd make me incredibly happy.
UmaroVI
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jun 12 2012, 03:51 PM) *
Are you talking about activation and duration?

And visibility. Elemental Strike is a simple to turn on (so it locks out your ability to make an attack on the first pass, which is a huge drawback), it's visible (so you can't just leave it on all the time), and it's short enough duration that you pretty much do have to turn it on at the start of the fight.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jun 12 2012, 10:58 PM) *
Note that Unarmed Adepts do have access to Weapon Foci thanks to Hardliner Gloves.
Yes they do, but arguably then all those nifty powers do no longer function. While you use the Unarmed Combat skill, using those gloves is not considered an unarmed attack by everyone as you are using a weapon.

Technically dwarven sonic warhammers cannot exist, but with [Element] Aura you can get something even better. Not only do your attacks (including those with a hammer) are considered sonic attacks and receive a damage boost, people that attack you get hit by the sound damage as well (by RAW even those who attack with ranged weapons)

You can also make a very defensive armed adept:
Lots of IPs
Combat Sense as much as possible
Improved Ability (Melee Skill of choice)
Two Weapon Style
Disarm
Escrima
almost normal
QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Jun 12 2012, 05:14 PM) *
And visibility. Elemental Strike is a simple to turn on (so it locks out your ability to make an attack on the first pass, which is a huge drawback), it's visible (so you can't just leave it on all the time), and it's short enough duration that you pretty much do have to turn it on at the start of the fight.


That's just erroneous, seemingly intentionally so.

Most, if not all encounters fall into two categories.

Encounters that Melee characters start.
Encounters that Melee characters sit out.

I've seen firsthand, repeatedly, where a player gets jumpy and pulls his weapon and starts firing, and for the rest of the combat, the melee guy is stuck helplessly running towards combat for the next 2-3 turns.

No, in the actual game, the melee character tends to have a few moments to himself before combat starts. The lost simple action is nearly meaningless.
BishopMcQ
QUOTE (almost normal @ Jun 12 2012, 02:07 PM) *
I had figured that their active powers (which are most of them) would make them glow, much the same as a sustained spell. At the very least, their magic score would bump up the glow a bit.

Fair cop. As has been pointed out, the rules are a bit vague. I can see an argument for active adept powers glowing brighter--it would be a choice then to have adepts suppress their powers like a technomancer suppressing their brain to avoid a scan. Something to think about...
Achsin
@Dakka
How does the [Element] Aura do damage to ranged attackers by RAW?

QUOTE
Any successful physical melee attack against the subject
also means that the attacker must resist similar damage from
the aura. The aura’s Damage Value equals the spell’s Force.


Also for the defensive-ish oriented adept, don't forget to take a level of Counterstrike and put some of those extra parry/block dice to double use.
almost normal
QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Jun 12 2012, 05:24 PM) *
Fair cop. As has been pointed out, the rules are a bit vague. I can see an argument for active adept powers glowing brighter--it would be a choice then to have adepts suppress their powers like a technomancer suppressing their brain to avoid a scan. Something to think about...


I like that for combat powers. Tune down the enhanced initiative, killing hands and all that. It'd be tough to do with powers you're using to remain stealthy, however. Increased Attribute (agility), Increased non-combat skills, traceless step and the like.
Elfenlied
Would a warhammer prepared as a vessel and possessed by a spirit with Elemental Aura( Sonic) qualify?
Stahlseele
The complete Hammer, including the grip, would be also under the influence of the aura.
So the wielder will suffer too.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (almost normal @ Jun 12 2012, 11:13 PM) *
Interactions between Astral activities and the Mundane are not, however. A torch in a hallway is obvious. A ninja sneaking down a hallway, by the universe, would be just as obvious on the astral, thanks to his glowing aura.

If you could show me otherwise, without ambiguous passages, you'd make me incredibly happy.
The ninja is just as glowing whether he is mundane or awakened. On the other hand a hiding ninja needs to be spotted before he is obvious, whether with mundane or astral perception. Everything that is opaque on the physical plane is opaque to the astral observer as well. Glass is even opaque on the astral plane. The sneaker can employ the same techniques against an astral observer as against a physical one.

Also while the adept may have detectable powers active this does not make him more noticeable as any other character. There are only different "brightness levels" between auras of nonliving objects and the auras of living creatures and magical effects. Astral Forms are not brighter, they are just tangible on the astral plane.

@Achsin: Sorry, I got that confused with the Critter Power Energy Aura:
QUOTE ('SR4A p. 294')
Any successful attack against a critter with Energy Aura means the attacker also takes damage from the attack. The attacker must make a Damage Resistance Test against a Damage Value equal to the critter’s Magic. Impact armor protects with half its value.


Too bad Counterstrike does not work with Two Weapon Style.
Yerameyahu
The whole possessed weapon aura thing only works if the *spirit* is making the attacks. It's not a free-lunch super-enchantment.
almost normal
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jun 12 2012, 05:36 PM) *
Also while the adept may have detectable powers active this does not make him more noticeable as any other character.


QUOTE
There are only different "brightness levels" between auras of nonliving objects and the auras of ... magical effects.


Given that the whole of adepts rely on their magical powers and effects, your two statements don't seem to match, which is my initial problem.
Elfenlied
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 12 2012, 09:40 PM) *
The whole possessed weapon aura thing only works if the *spirit* is making the attacks. It's not a free-lunch super-enchantment.


Yep, it's akin to wielding a plasteel homonculus shaped like a Warhammer and whackin' people with it. Which you gotta admit is something any dwarf worth his Mohawk would do and totally not phallic nyahnyah.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Jun 12 2012, 02:24 PM) *
Fair cop. As has been pointed out, the rules are a bit vague. I can see an argument for active adept powers glowing brighter--it would be a choice then to have adepts suppress their powers like a technomancer suppressing their brain to avoid a scan. Something to think about...


And if the Adepts powers were visible as such, then they leave an Astral Signature of those powers wherever they go, which most Adepts are ill-prepared to remove.

Pretty sure that Adept powers don't Astrally Glow innately, except for a few obvious ones, like Elemental Strike.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 12 2012, 11:40 PM) *
The whole possessed weapon aura thing only works if the *spirit* is making the attacks. It's not a free-lunch super-enchantment.
You don't possess the weapon, you possess the wielder. And BTW I'm sure it should have been melee attacks only for Energy Aura as well.

QUOTE (almost normal @ Jun 12 2012, 11:43 PM) *
Given that the whole of adepts rely on their magical powers and effects, your two statements don't seem to match, which is my initial problem.
For a physical analog: A person wearing clothing in bright colors in front of a white wall does not get more noticeable if he attaches buttons in different bright colors to his clothes.

@Signatures: No Problem for the Adept: 1) the signatures are on him as his powers affect him and not his environment. 2) Adept powers do not have a Force, so they remain exactly zero time.
Yerameyahu
That's not what Elfenlied said, Dakka Dakka, and then you're not playing your own character. biggrin.gif

But, that person does get more audible if he attaches additional noisemakers (albeit not linearly, heh).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jun 12 2012, 02:50 PM) *
You don't possess the weapon, you possess the wielder. And BTW I'm sure it should have been melee attacks only for Energy Aura as well.

For a physical analog: A person wearing clothing in bright colors in front of a white wall does not get more noticeable if he attaches buttons in different bright colors to his clothes.

@Signatures: No Problem for the Adept: 1) the signatures are on him as his powers affect him and not his environment. 2) Adept powers do not have a Force, so they remain exactly zero time.


A spell (say Increased Reflexes) effects a Person and not always the environment, and yet, there is still a Signature for the casting of the spell. So, funny man ( smile.gif ) how do you account for that?

For an Adept, his powers work at peak efficiency, so I would set his Magic as his equivalent Force Rating. If he left a Signature. Which he may not. I am a big proponent that Adept powers leave no signature, but Almost-Normal's argument requires that they leave a signature if they are visible in the astral while active.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 13 2012, 12:03 AM) *
A spell (say Increased Reflexes) effects a Person and not always the environment, and yet, there is still a Signature for the casting of the spell. So, funny man ( smile.gif ) how do you account for that?
I don't know what you are trying to say. I never said anything about the signatures of spells. Adept powers however leave signatures on the adept who uses them and they remain for zero time. See the rules work as we both intend. The signature is created because it is a power, but cannot be detected because it is gone already.

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 13 2012, 12:03 AM) *
For an Adept, his powers work at peak efficiency, so I would set his Magic as his equivalent Force Rating. If he left a Signature. Which he may not. I am a big proponent that Adept powers leave no signature, but Almost-Normal's argument requires that they leave a signature if they are visible in the astral while active.
This is a houserule and one that severely nerfs adepts. While mages can cast low force spells, every adept power (even rating 1) then stays for MAG hours. Additionally mages can erase those signatures while adepts cannot unless they use astral perception, which also is a power and leaves a signature....
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