Melee vs. Unarmed Options

[almost normal]

Did a search. Our search feature blows.

Given the vast amount of skills for hand to hand melee adepts, (Killing hands + Elemental strike) is there any reason for an adept to use a sword instead of a fist?

[Yerameyahu]

Weapon foci, and you don't have to blow all your PP on hand mods.

[almost normal]

Well, put it this way. It's 1 PP to ignore all armor, and you'll never have to pay karma or bond with anything.

I mean, common sense says that two equally skilled fighters a few feet from each other, the guy with the sword is gonna win, but SR just doesn't handle that well. (To be fair, very few games do)

[Jeremiah Kraye]

Pretty sure the guy with the sword would have an advantage, which I believe SR does have, REACH attribute on melee weapons.

[almost normal]

Right. It's just done abstractly. You could argue that everything in SR is an abstraction, but that's a silly argument. Two cars couldn't be in the same space at the same time, for instance, despite chase combat and driving all being abstractions.

A more elegant way to handle it would be not allowing a lower reach attack to take place until the higher reach has had a chance to act. Almost like an AoO.

[Jeremiah Kraye]

Suppose elegance depends on the eye of the beholder.

[Dakka Dakka]

Another reason to use weapons is the two weapons style from Arsenal. Always using Full Defense while attacking is a nice boost to defense, and opens up other maneuvers.

Generally though, the Unarmed Melee Adept is a staple of SR. The Armed Melee Adept not so much.

[almost normal]

Hrmmz..

Would striking in melee in pitch black conditions/blindfolded count as "blind fire"? Same question for throwing weapons.

[Xenefungus]

Yep, blind fire applies just the same in melee and with throwing. I have a blind adept who focusses on ignoring that -6 modifier while his favorite weapons are smoke grenades tied to his belt (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I also want to repeat Dakka Dakka: If you go armed close combat adept, it is BECAUSE of two weapon style. It's just so good. And just 4 Karma o_O

[UmaroVI]

Well, put it this way. It's 1 PP to ignore all armor, and you'll never have to pay karma or bond with anything.

Uh, what?

[Dakka Dakka]

I think he is talking about Killing Hands and Elemental Strike: Sound.

[UmaroVI]

That might be true, but if he thinks that's the case he needs to reread Elemental Strike for all the drawbacks it comes with.

[Dakka Dakka]

Are you talking about activation and duration?

[Umidori]

The adept powers and even the martial arts available do tend to favor unarmed. But now I'm curious how they match up.

1 - Critical Strike adds DV to unarmed attacks, while most weapons have (STR/2) + X, but with X being based on size, typically.
2 - Killing Hands allows you to choose between Stun and Physical. Most weapons are simply Physical. KH also allows you to ignore ItNW.
3 - Distance Strike turns your unarmed attacks into ranged attacks. Nothing similar can be done with melee weapons, other than throwing them.
4 - Elemental Strike gives you the elemental effect of your choice, which can get crazy. Only similar ability for melee involves spells.
5 - Nerve Strike allows you to reduce an enemy's Agility or Reaction instead of deal damage. Only similar ability for melee involves spells.
6 - Penetrating Strike grants your unarmed attack armor penetration. Melee weapons have their own, but it is based on size, typically.
7 - Smashing Blow multiplies base DV x2 for attacking barriers. Not terribly impressive, often matched by melee weapon DV.

Unarmed does seem to come out a bit better in general via adept powers. We also know that most of the martial arts benefit unarmed, but there are at least a few that benefit melee weapons. Unarmed is of course entirely concealable, whereas weapons (particularly larger and more powerful ones) are not. Unarmed also cannot be disarmed or confiscated or destroyed.

Melee weapons can, however, be modified, often negating these problems to some extent (Chameleon Coating, Gecko Grip, etc). And melee weapons also eat up far fewer power points, leaving more room for utility powers, or maybe even other combat powers that benefit both types, like another rank of Improved Reflexes or a higher rating of Improved Combat Ability, etc. And of course, as others mentioned, you can get a weapon focus, you can use dual wielding for extra defense or even for twice the number of attacks per turn with a split pool.

I dunno. I think they're pretty close, but fill different niches. Unarmed adepts focus their powers more on their combat power, whereas a melee adept is probably going to diversify their abilities a bit more, either into more tactical combat choices or perhaps even into social or utility powers. And that's worth noting - if we're simply looking at combat potential, you'd probably want to go with a gun adept for maximum combat effectiveness anyway.

~Umi

[almost normal]

I think he is talking about Killing Hands and Elemental Strike: Sound.

It's been a while, but I think I was thinking of ES : Sand

[almost normal]

I dunno. I think they're pretty close, but fill different niches. Unarmed adepts focus their powers more on their combat power, whereas a melee adept is probably going to diversify their abilities a bit more, either into more tactical combat choices or perhaps even into social or utility powers. And that's worth noting - if we're simply looking at combat potential, you'd probably want to go with a gun adept for maximum combat effectiveness anyway.

~Umi

Well, putting it another way, if I wanted to spend 2 PP on combat powers, and 4 on 'Being a crazy adept', I could easily get +4 DV, armor ignoring strikes if I went unarmed, and if I went Melee, it seems the best I could do offensively would be a +4 DP.

Let's assume a damage mitigating pool of 16 for the bad guys, and 4 strength and a 1 handed sword for the melee adept. Let's also buy hits, for the hell of it.

8 (Skills and Spec) + 4 (Agility) = 12 dice, or 3 hits for unarmed, and 4 hits for swords, thanks to the improved weapon skill. (Yes, I know you can bump both of those up a bit.)

The Sword is going to do 9P, bought hits from armor knocking that down to 5p.
The Fist is going to do 9p, bought hits from armor being ignored due to the elemental strike.

This leads me to believe that a melee weapon using adept wishing to use power points on their fighting style of choice must be defensively focused to get a good value for their power points, which supports Umi's posit that melee weapon users would also be more dynamic and mobile with their selection of powers in the first place.

[VykosDarkSoul]

Well, putting it another way, if I wanted to spend 2 PP on combat powers, and 4 on 'Being a crazy adept', I could easily get +4 DV, armor ignoring strikes if I went unarmed, and if I went Melee, it seems the best I could do offensively would be a +4 DP.

Let's assume a damage mitigating pool of 16 for the bad guys, and 4 strength and a 1 handed sword for the melee adept. Let's also buy hits, for the hell of it.

8 (Skills and Spec) + 4 (Agility) = 12 dice, or 3 hits for unarmed, and 4 hits for swords, thanks to the improved weapon skill. (Yes, I know you can bump both of those up a bit.)

The Sword is going to do 9P, bought hits from armor knocking that down to 5p.
The Fist is going to do 9p, bought hits from armor being ignored due to the elemental strike.

This leads me to believe that a melee weapon using adept wishing to use power points on their fighting style of choice must be defensively focused to get a good value for their power points, which supports Umi's posit that melee weapon users would also be more dynamic and mobile with their selection of powers in the first place.

Just a couple of quick things to throw in. Reach for weapon and most of the weapons have some kind of armor pen. and then of course you have to add in that you can make* the weapon into a focus and personalized grip. you cant do either of those for hands. And the elemental strike you have to activate and it lasts a limited time. Situationaly the unarmed would be better, but overall the melee would be better.


*=edit

[Umidori]

Also, only one elemental type actually ignores armor - sonic. It also has other absurd benefits that make it really outlandish compared to every other type of elemental effect, and make it a strong candidate for GM fiat or houserules. The rest just halve armor and add other minor effects, with many of them doing Stun damage only.

~Umi

[VykosDarkSoul]

Also, only one elemental type actually ignores armor - sonic. It also has other absurd benefits that make it really outlandish compared to every other type of elemental effect, and make it a strong candidate for GM fiat or houserules. The rest just halve armor and add other minor effects, with many of them doing Stun damage only.

~Umi

LOL...sorry Umi...i had to laugh at one thing...


"just halve armor"

thats all, no big (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[almost normal]

Just a couple of quick things to throw in. Reach for weapon and most of the weapons have some kind of armor pen. and then of course you have to add in that you can make* the weapon into a focus and personalized grip. you cant do either of those for hands. And the elemental strike you have to activate and it lasts a limited time. Situationaly the unarmed would be better, but overall the melee would be better.
*=edit

The focus is going to cost/BP, so I hadn't included it. I also wasn't aware that personalized grip had an effect on Melee, outside of recoil comp. The 'Limited time' that Elemental Strike lasts equates to 6 combat turns. That tends to be enough, but you're also correct that I didn't apply reach. To fix that,

Unarmed = 9p
Sword = 5.25p

[Umidori]

@VykosDarkSoul

In comparison to sonic, it isn't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Also there's no reason you couldn't achieve the same effect on a melee weapon through other means: spells, enchanting, taser weapons, etc.

@almost normal

Personalized Grip on a melee weapon gives +1 to your dice pool.

~Umi

[VykosDarkSoul]

The focus is going to cost/BP, so I hadn't included it. I also wasn't aware that personalized grip had an effect on Melee, outside of recoil comp. The 'Limited time' that Elemental Strike lasts equates to 6 combat turns. That tends to be enough, but you're also correct that I didn't apply reach. To fix that,

Unarmed = 9p
Sword = 5.25p

Personalized grip adds 1 recoil comp for ranged or 1 die for Melee

[almost normal]

Also, only one elemental type actually ignores armor - sonic. It also has other absurd benefits that make it really outlandish compared to every other type of elemental effect, and make it a strong candidate for GM fiat or houserules. The rest just halve armor and add other minor effects, with many of them doing Stun damage only.

~Umi

We can't really argue what's a strong candidate for houserules. Practically all of magic would be tossed out the window. (Double digit damage from spells resisted with only Body + Non-existent counterspelling, for instance)

[almost normal]

@VykosDarkSoul

In comparison to sonic, it isn't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Also there's no reason you couldn't achieve the same effect on a melee weapon through other means: spells, enchanting, taser weapons, etc.

~Umi

If the rules would support that, I'd be in favor. Dwarven Sonic Hammers ftw!

[Umidori]

Personally, if I was building a melee adept I'd take the power points I saved on pure combat potential and use them for stealth. Might not do as much damage in direct combat, but I'd still be able to hold my own AND I'd be the sneakiest sneak that ever sneaked past a sneaking parlour.

~Umi