There is no need to attack my intelligence for a possible misinterpretation.



Except...from SR4A page 146 as i just was talking about under call a shot


It says right there that you can follow a call a shot action with take aim...

So you're wrong.



That wasn't even the point I was making. But it doesn't matter, as I can see that with your above interpretation, there would be no contradiction.

Thank you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (see...this is why i shouldnt post while I am at work, lol, and yet...i still do! ) Seriously tho, thanks for the correction.


The other thing I wanted to posit here though....again, correct me if I am wrong. You can make a called shot with a Melee weapon, and yet you CANNOT take aim with a melee weapon, therefore, it doesnt seem that you MUST take aim in order to make a called shot.

Ah yes, my bad on the Called Shot one, which is indeed a Free Action.

I was originally going with the gun bunny calling a shot on his previous action, then taking aim until it was time to fire - in editing that away I got confused (I blame lack of coffee and posting so early in the morning...)

The maximum expected total dice pools I quoted are roughly the same regardless, though.

No enhanced articulation is NOT a skill modifier. It explicitly states "It provides it's user with a +1 DICE POOL MODIFIER on any test...." It does not modify the skill. (and people need to look at the list of physical skills tied to physical stats... this DOES NOT include combat skills like dodge/pistols/melee combat... only skills like running/swimming/...)


Reflex recorder:
"The reflex recorder adds 1 to the skill or skill group (Combat & Physical skills only)."
Note the clear difference in wording... not only that the former explicitly even says it's a dice pool mod. It never mentions the limitation on skill modifiers but it is only +1 dice...

Improved Ability:
"This power increases the rating of a specific Active skill by 1 per level. A skill's maximum modified rating equals its base rating x 1.5."

For further clarification on the reason for my interpretation (though it may be erroneous), here is the paragraph immediately before the first quote I produce



When I read that through quickly, the reference to "aiming at a vulnerable portion of the target" put the take aim option in my mind so I must have superimposed that into my interpretation of the next paragraph

Still, that doesn't excuse your rude response and personal attack.

*takes off his gloves and slaps Falconer in the face with it*

You have insulted me sir and I hereby challenge you to a duel.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Good catch snowRaven.

I looked at the melee section/ the ranged combat section... and neither of them said anything about it. As well as page 161. I missed page 146.


Looks like I got ninja'd on the enhanced articulation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .

This is the actual quote from sr4a page 347



Adds 1 to the rating of a specific skill or skill group....seems pretty clear to me that it is a skill modifier

If I am wrong, then the text of the rulebook is wrong or you're basically trying to twist my usage of 'not required' into something that isn't there.





According to the rules Take Aim actions cannot be taken before calling a shot. Calling a shot, a free action, immediately negates the benefits of taking aim. So while I was mistaken be including the phrase "not required" it is a bit misleading since it leaves open the possibility of Taking Aim prior to calling a shot which the rules prohibit. So the short is that nothing of yours which I quoted is correct so I suggest you refresh your memory of the rules.

Stealth... look above... we're ninja'ing each other.

Already admitted I was in error on the take aim after calling.

Let's see about stacking. Assume the following base:
Ambidexterity
Agi 12 (7 base+1 Suprathyroid Gland+4 Muscle Toner)
Pistols 7(10) (6 base+1 Aptitude+3 Improved Pistols)
Specialization +2
Red Dot Sight +1 (stupid, I know, but RAW it adds +1 after splitting, unless someone can quote an official source that denies this)
Ruger Thunderbolt (or any pistol really) modded for FA with Tracer Rounds
various Recoil comp and range penalty negating gear

So the base DP (before splitting) is 28 when firing FA with Tracers, or 25 when firing normally. Split, the DP is 17 when firing Tracers FA, or 14 when firing normally. Now, add in item attunement and possibly tacnets, which adds some extra dice. So a DP of 15 while dual wielding is well within the scope of a 150 Karma character.

I just want to clean up the math before making some comments in general - Agi 12 + Pistols 10 = 22 + 3 (mods) = 25 (I'm ignoring the FA portion for now, it hurts my brain). Split would be 11 + 2 (specialization) + 1 (red dot sight (reflex sight?)) = 14.

I suppose I could see why reflex sights would still apply to dual wielding, at least over laser sights, but I've still never understood why smartgun links wouldn't work... not very smart if you ask me. Also, as for tac-net bonuses, those would also apply after the split for another easy 1 - 3 DP (getting the 4 without cheesing it is a bit tricky). But at creation this lacks some pull, as suprathyroid and toner 4 both are over availability 12. Taking Improved pistols 3 would also eat up a ton of your power points as well that would be better spent improved reflexes, as, if I'm not mistaken, combat skills are .75 PP before cap and 1.5 after cap. Damn my SR4A book being at home. It's really hyper specialization to the point of making you worthless in other areas.

More like 'just barely within the reach of a stupendously minmaxed character', but yes.

Combat skills are 0.5 per rating. So a starting character could easily have both Improved Pistols 3 and Improved Reflexes 2. As for Muscle Toner and Suprthyroid Gland, 2x Restricted Gear will solve the issue at chargen.

Note that the OP mentioned that the character in question has around ~150 Karma.

Nope...

Combat Skill Improvement is 0.5 PP per Level, max of 3 levels (Assuming relevant Skill levels)...
Non-Combat Skill Improvements are .25 pp per level (max of 3 as well)

EDIT... Damn, did not see Elfenlied's Post.

You can't fire two SMGs/pistols at once unless you use a simple action. (no double full 10rd bursts, or covering fire with 2 weapons at once).


I'm looking through elfen's post... and not seeing where he disinctly identifies the tracer bonus. But for long bursts (simple)... it would be +2 each. (not +3 if that's what he used).

I agree... red dot is not specifically denied...so if you're powergaming it up include it. However, that's only because the main rule book was written before hand would be my judgement. (It's described as a precursor to smartlink's) And having shot with them, they're not much different than laser sights (draw a red dot over your field of view instead of on the target with a laser). But it's not specifically named as disallowed, but as a GM you'd have a lot of ammo to say it's no different than a laser sight or smartlink which are disallowed.

Another problem is that pistols don't QUALIFY for most recoil comp. So even getting up to RC5 for a pistol is very hard while being very easy for a SMG/MP. So that's a significant source of -dicepool mod.

So break down of BP spent for this character. (it gets too complicated once you start blending karma and nuyen to determine exactly how the character was built)

Elf (for the +1 to agility, would be cheaper from metagenic, but you don't have quality points left to spend)- 30 BP
Ambidextrous- 5 BP
Hard max agility- 75 BP
Restricted Gear- 5 BP
Muscle Toner 4- 6.4 BP
Genetic Optimization Agility (or you can't stack all your other boosts)- 9 BP
1.0 Essense lost
Aptitude- 10 BP
Max Pistol Skill at 7- 32 BP
Specialization- 2 BP
Adept Quality- 5 BP
Magic (has to be at least 3 after losing 1 magic for ware)- 30 BP

That puts us at- 209.4 BP? That leaves a good 185 BP for everything else, after you buy guns, mod them, and stock pile ammo. Seems like a reasonable character to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

We'll assume that the adept spent most of that karma on initiation, attunement and centering, because they can't get it at character creation with BP. For the 3 centering and 2 attunements he'll need 5 initiations, so 13+16+19+22+25=95 karma. He'll have to raise his magic to from 3 to 5 before he can get attunement for both his guns, so 20 karma + 25 karma = 45 karma. So he uses 140 karma.

Huh, I guess it is possible.

Edit: forgot ambidextrous and added genetic optimization and got rid of superthyroid because it doesn't stack.

Note that you need not hardmax agility; a 7 base is enough, since you get +5 from 'ware (4 muscle toner+1 suprathyroid). So it's only 50BP for Agility.

It only saves you 1 BP to do it that way. You still restricted gear 5 BP, the suprathryroid gland 9 BP, raise magic for the extra point of essense lost 10 BP.

Fair point on the improved ability, for some reason I swore it cost more if it was putting you over base cap.

That is for the Ability to raise your actual Stats... 0.75 and 1.5

And again, if a GM lets any such a character into a normal, average SR game, they should be ashamed.

God has his golden rule, but the golden rule for ShadowRun is : All things by the GM's approval.

The sad Reality is that even with this amount of optimization, dual wielding is still a subpar choice. John Woo/Max Payne afficionados are better served with a different system.

Just getting some pages down so i can do some research, where does it talk about the laser sight and smartlink and duelwielding?

SR4A - page 150 - Attacking using a second firearm.

You still have to get your Augmented Maximum Agi up to 12...with a natural 7 you'd only be at 11, right? Plus, remember to reduce the divided pool by the recoil if you're trying to go FA tracers. Otherwise you are limited to bursts, which give less of a bonus.

As far as the red dot sight goes... there may not be any text that specifically disallows it, but given that it's called a 'recursor' to smartlinks, and that it gives the same kind of bonus for roughly the same reason as a lasersight (except you actually have to look through the sight to see it, contrary to both smartlinks and lasersights), it's pretty safe to rule that it doesn't apply to dual wield.
(possibly with the exception if you use 'take aim' actions as if you were using a scope)