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CrystalBlue
So I'm going to pull this idea into it's own thread, since it seems to be my more pervasive problem then spirit force.

I have a gun bunny. He throws nearly 15 dice on each hand after penalties and splitting dice pools. I need to know how he did this or where his faults are. So I'm going to Chummer a quick Gun Bunny made the same way he was and see if I can get the same numbers. What I need help with is figuring out what the difference between a modifier and a base pool number is. My player is telling me that a lot of the rules on what a base number is as opposed to a modifier are ambiguous, so he's been opting them in his favor and adding everything as a modifier. I know for a fact he's an adept, taking abilities specifically for duel wielding guns, has Fire Fight and Krav Maga, both pistols as Weapon Foci (though I didn't think that was possible) and an ability of 8 before specialization and adept powers. I'lol post what IT think his pool comes out to being when I have it built.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Well, you cannot have a Skill of 8 in Pistols/Automatics/Longarms (Whichever he is using, I assume Pistols or Automatics) prior to Specialties and Adept Powers. Max is 7 IF, and only IF, they have the Aptitude Quality for that particular Skill. Otherwise it is 6.
Yerameyahu
It will be interesting to see the facts. Remember that there are also *negative* modifiers; in theory, live by the DP mod, die by the DP mod. smile.gif Not in practice, but still.
snowRaven
It is not possible to have the guns as Weapon Foci and apply the bonus to shooting tests. If they are weapon foci, they'll only give extra dice when used in melee combat. There is a metamagic, Attunement, that can give extra dice.

Improved ability Adept power adds to the skill, and has to be divided along with the base pool.

Lasersights don't give their bonus for Dual Wielding, and neither does Smartlinks.

Anything from the 'Ranged Combat Modifiers' and 'Visibility Modifiers' tables applies separately to each split pool, except for lasersights and smartlinks as noted above.

Aiming will only give a bonus to the first shot, but if he is aiming using a Free Action he can't use Centering. Also note what type of centering the character uses - they need to be able to perform it to get the benefits.


So, given your statement of skill 8(10):

We make her an Initiate Grade 4 with Adept Centering & Attunement, and give her Improved Ability (pistols) +2

Pistols 6(cool.gif (specialization +2), Agility 8

Divided by 2 thats 8(+2) for each gun, +2 for Attunement gives a total of 12

Adept Centering can negate up to -4 dice, so let's do a Called Shot for extra damage. If we assume that the guns have enough recoil compensation to negate recoil, and our shooter is at point-blank range (+2) firing at the spirit, negating 'attacker in melee' penalty with his martial arts, we get a total of 14 dice for each gun. If standing still and firing at a really massive target (Body 15+) you can get 16 dice. 17 if the pistols are burst-fire capable and using tracer rounds.

That's about as high as you can go. For every 2 extra initate grades, you can add 1 die to each gun, and eliminate 2 more dice worth of penalties. Maxing out agility and pistols and Improved ability (Pistols) should net you an extra 2 dice for each gun as well, and there are a few tricks from Augmentation that can give you an extra dice or two.

Most cases, your Initiate Grade 4 Gun bunny shouldn't be able to roll more than 12 dice for each hand - often less.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (snowRaven @ Jun 15 2012, 08:49 AM) *
It is not possible to have the guns as Weapon Foci and apply the bonus to shooting tests. If they are weapon foci, they'll only give extra dice when used in melee combat. There is a metamagic, Attunement, that can give extra dice.

Improved ability Adept power adds to the skill, and has to be divided along with the base pool.

Lasersights don't give their bonus for Dual Wielding, and neither does Smartlinks.

Anything from the 'Ranged Combat Modifiers' and 'Visibility Modifiers' tables applies separately to each split pool, except for lasersights and smartlinks as noted above.

Aiming will only give a bonus to the first shot, but if he is aiming using a Free Action he can't use Centering. Also note what type of centering the character uses - they need to be able to perform it to get the benefits.


So, given your statement of skill 8(10):

We make her an Initiate Grade 4 with Adept Centering & Attunement, and give her Improved Ability (pistols) +2

Pistols 6(cool.gif (specialization +2), Agility 8

Divided by 2 thats 8(+2) for each gun, +2 for Attunement gives a total of 12

Adept Centering can negate up to -4 dice, so let's do a Called Shot for extra damage. If we assume that the guns have enough recoil compensation to negate recoil, and our shooter is at point-blank range (+2) firing at the spirit, negating 'attacker in melee' penalty with his martial arts, we get a total of 14 dice for each gun. If standing still and firing at a really massive target (Body 15+) you can get 16 dice. 17 if the pistols are burst-fire capable and using tracer rounds.

That's about as high as you can go. For every 2 extra initate grades, you can add 1 die to each gun, and eliminate 2 more dice worth of penalties. Maxing out agility and pistols and Improved ability (Pistols) should net you an extra 2 dice for each gun as well, and there are a few tricks from Augmentation that can give you an extra dice or two.

Most cases, your Initiate Grade 4 Gun bunny shouldn't be able to roll more than 12 dice for each hand - often less.


Can't make a called shot for both guns. I would also probably eliminate the called shot entirely. Why? Because if you cannot concentrate enough to use a simple laser sightr or smartlink, what makes you think you can concentrate hard enough to make a called shot, not to mention being able to do so with TWO weapons simultaneously.

Smartlinks and laser Sights give Aiming Bonuses... If they cannot be used, what makes you think aiming is feasible? Let alone aiming for a called shot.

Just sayin'
ZeroPoint
I believe making a called shot also requires a free action so at the start of each pass he has to choose what hes going to spend it on: take aim, called shot, and adept centering.

Also, if hes going to be attacking 2 seperate targets with his split attacks, both attacks get the -2 attacking multiple opponents penalty since the attacks are made simultaneously. He also must choose both targets before he rolls. If one shot failes to drop one opponent he cant change his mind on attacking someone else. He's stuck splitting attacks among designated targets.
almost normal
I thought you could raise the skill to 8 with Karma?
ZeroPoint
Also, per SR4A, you have to take aim first before you can even call a shot, which then is a free action. and only applies to one shot

So the above gun bunny would spend a free action to take aim once (for a +1 on one of the attack) and spend a simple action as a free action to call the shot(for the +4DV) and then get one simple action remaining. Which s/he could then split the dice and get the benefit of the +DV as well as the -4 DP penalty to the first attack, and the second attack would be unmodified unless the GM allows that the second attack was to the same location in which case you would not be able to attack a separate target.

QE: clarifications
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (almost normal @ Jun 15 2012, 09:07 AM) *
I thought you could raise the skill to 8 with Karma?


Absolutely Not...
Skills are hard-capped at 6, or 7 with the Aptitude Quality...
ZeroPoint
You can add to it with the adept ability as has been mentioned, and with a Reflex recorder (cultured bioware that adds +1 to a particular skill or skill group) but both of these are considered skill modifiers. They add to the skill not directly to the dice pool , in the same way that muscle toner adds to agility, not the dice pool (directly).


I believe, though i can't find anything about it atm, that skills have augmented maximums in the same ways as attributes. So, even if you could stack reflex recorder and improved combat ability 3, you'd skill be maxed at 9. But I can't support that statement.



almost normal
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 15 2012, 11:22 AM) *
Absolutely Not...
Skills are hard-capped at 6, or 7 with the Aptitude Quality...


Go figure, never knew that.

Lovely how mages can initiate forever, yet non-mages get hard capped.

<3 MagicRun.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (almost normal @ Jun 15 2012, 09:27 AM) *
Go figure, never knew that.

Lovely how mages can initiate forever, yet non-mages get hard capped.

<3 MagicRun.


Never had a problem with that.... *Shrug*
There are so many things you can buy that I have yet to even see an issue with the caps.

Interestingly, I saw WAY more High Initiate Grade Adepts/Magicians in 2nd/3rd Edition than I have ever seen in 4th. Probably becasue you STARTED with Magic 6, and gained a MAgic Point for every initiation automatically in previous editions.
Speed Wraith
QUOTE (ZeroPoint @ Jun 15 2012, 11:27 AM) *
I believe, though i can't find anything about it atm, that skills have augmented maximums in the same ways as attributes. So, even if you could stack reflex recorder and improved combat ability 3, you'd skill be maxed at 9. But I can't support that statement.


150% of unaugmented max, just like attributes. So skills typically have a 9, or 10 with aptitude, max augmented rating. I don't have a page reference in front of me, but I've seen it enough to know it is there.
ZeroPoint
I was pretty sure thats what it was, but in either case, the most you could get is +3 assuming your actual skill is capped.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (ZeroPoint @ Jun 15 2012, 11:19 AM) *
Also, per SR4A, you have to take aim first before you can even call a shot, which then is a free action. and only applies to one shot

So the above gun bunny would spend a free action to take aim once (for a +1 on one of the attack) and spend a simple action as a free action to call the shot(for the +4DV) and then get one simple action remaining. Which s/he could then split the dice and get the benefit of the +DV as well as the -4 DP penalty to the first attack, and the second attack would be unmodified unless the GM allows that the second attack was to the same location in which case you would not be able to attack a separate target.

QE: clarifications


Take Aim is not required before Called Shot. Called Shot MUST be followed by a Take Aim action or an Attack. Take Aim actions must be followed with a take aim action or a ranged attack or else the benefit is lost. Take Aim actions are also Simple actions, not free actions.

Once you make a called shot or take aim you must follow through with an attack before doing anything else or else you have wasted those actions.
ZeroPoint
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Jun 15 2012, 10:52 AM) *
Take Aim is not required before Called Shot. Called Shot MUST be followed by a Take Aim action or an Attack. Take Aim actions must be followed with a take aim action or a ranged attack or else the benefit is lost. Take Aim actions are also Simple actions, not free actions.

Once you make a called shot or take aim you must follow through with an attack before doing anything else or else you have wasted those actions.



SR4A PG 161 second paragraph under the heading "Called Shots"
QUOTE
A character can only make a called shot with weapons that fire
in single-shot, semi-automatic, and burst-fire modes, as well as melee
weapons. A character can aim (see Take Aim, p. 148) and then call a
shot at the time of the attack. Calling the shot is a Free Action.
almost normal
Take aim can also be a free action with Krav Maga.
ZeroPoint
QUOTE (almost normal @ Jun 15 2012, 10:58 AM) *
Take aim can also be a free action with Krav Maga.


True, but you only get one free action per pass, which means you would have to spend a simple action as a free action in order to both aim and call a shot in the same pass. Now you only have 1 simple action with which to shoot.
CrystalBlue
Can someone tell me where, in SR4A, it says that you only get one free action? It has always been assumed that you get as many free actions as you want, provided that they're reasonable.
ZeroPoint
QUOTE (CrystalBlue @ Jun 15 2012, 11:04 AM) *
Can someone tell me where, in SR4A, it says that you only get one free action? It has always been assumed that you get as many free actions as you want, provided that they're reasonable.



SR4A Page 146, first paragraph under the Main heading "The Action Phase"
QUOTE
When a character’s Action Phase arrives, he must decide what he’s
going to do. The character has many options to choose from: fire a
gun, cast a spell, activate a computer program, and so on. Each of these
is classified as one of three types of actions a character can take: Free,
Simple, or Complex. A character can take either two Simple Actions
or one Complex Action during his Action Phase. In addition, each
character may take one Free Action at any point in the Initiative Pass
(either during his own Action Phase or at any later time).
ZeroPoint
I would also like to note that under the Free actions list on that same page (where it lists a bunch of possible free actions) that the Call shot says that it must be immediately followed by a take aim, or some form of attack.

While this may seem like it would be in direct contradiction to what i quoted earlier, lets not forget that you can take up to 3 take aim actions in a row, So i think they included that so you could

Pass 1
>simple action (take aim)
>simple action (take aim)
>free action (call shot)
Pass 2
>simple action (take aim)
>simple action (shoot)

Otherwise, in the first pass you would just have to let that free action go to waste if you were planning on getting your 3rd take aim.


Nevermind, under take aim, it says you can't take any other action, even a free action or you have to start over. So yes, there is direct contradiction between both of the call shot descriptions.

I believe the actual call shot main heading on 161 would take precedence over the blurb under free actions though
Speed Wraith
Quick correction, after looking at my books, maximum skill rating is equal to base skill rating * 1.5, not maximum (SR4A, pg 118, third paragraph under "Skill Ratings"). So if you have 4 in a skill, your maximum augmented is only 6. I guess this is to prevent a hacker adept with a rank 1 in, say, Electronic Warfare, from having an effective 9 with a point and a half and a Way bonus. I don't think there would be any reason to do that, in practice, but there you have it.
Falconer
Wow zeropoint, just wow... you need to retake grammar. Can DOES NOT EQUAL must. If the sentence said.. A character MUST AIM then... you'd be right... it says can though. (can/may/must/etc. all have sleight but very important differences in meaning).

The rule says that once I call a shot I must immediately take the shot. (call a shot at the time of attack)
I CAN (but not MUST) use take aim actions PRIOR to calling then immediately taking the shot. (it's an option not a requirement, basic grammar).

So your final example is wrong. Stealthsigma has it slightly wrong as well, calling the shot cannot be followed by take aim. It may make logical sense to call before aiming... but the abstract nature of the rules do it differently.

There is no contradiction to the 'take aim' rules. The called shot explicitly creates an exception to the base rule (you can't) for called shots only. (the reason for the "can" in the first place). If they had just said a called shot was a free action taken when firing... then you would NOT be able to combine the two. (you're not capable of... the rules don't allow. However the sentence creates an explicit exception, you CAN (are capable of) aim beforehand if you wish.




CrystalBlue: I did this in your other thread and I'll do it once again...
You have 4 sources of dice which form a pool to be rolled. See the sidebar on p61, SR4a... "Shadowrun.... uses four distinct types of modifiers, attribute modifiers, skill modifiers, threshold modifiers, and DICE POOL MODIFIERS. Attribute and skill modifiers affect the character's relevant stats directly resulting in augmented Atttribute Ratings and MODIFIED skill ratings respectively."

Attributes (Augmented Attribute rating)
Skills (Augmented Skill rating)
Dice Pool Modifiers (these come AFTER the split, both positive and negative).
Threshold modifier doesn't matter (it's an opposed test... but this would be if it's threshold 2 vs 4 to notice something on a perception test. so irrelevant to the splitting mechanic).


Skills are limited to rating 6 (7 with a grossly overpriced quality... and the 7th rank costs DOUBLE in either BP OR KARMA). Given the new way that all skills are rolled skill + attribute in SR4 this is understandable... (though there are a lot of us who feel attribute is too much more important than skill in SR4 and that skill should count for more and potentially be uncapped). None of that is germane to a discussion of strict RAW though.

I don't see any issue with him aiming with one gun.. or calling for damage... just be aware that free actions aren't free.

It takes time to stack up free actions and I highly suggest you take time to read the action section carefully starting on p65. (this is one of those things I find that causes a lot of consternation because people just assume they can run for cover, while centering, talking to their allies, and casting a spell all at once.... they can't... casting is complex leaving only a free action... centering, talking, and running are all free actions... pick one). Free actions are special in that you can take them at your turn OR LATER in the initiative pass. Even a character with only a single pass... can delay it til a LATER pass using the delayed action rules (on p66). (that got a lot of surprise and complaints when I had a group of thugs hold their actions to fire on pass 3... instead of on pass 1 followed by 2 rounds of PC activity while the thugs did nothing... then the start of the 2nd combat turn).
VykosDarkSoul
QUOTE (Speed Wraith @ Jun 15 2012, 10:39 AM) *
150% of unaugmented max, just like attributes. So skills typically have a 9, or 10 with aptitude, max augmented rating. I don't have a page reference in front of me, but I've seen it enough to know it is there.


The big stickler on this is making sure to note what adds directly to your skill, and what acts as a dice pool mod. Dice pool mods are not capped, whereas direct skill mods are. Example being enhanced articulation, adds 1 die to any active skill linked to a physical stat (sorry if wording is wrong). This COULD be added alnong with Pistols of 6 and improved combat skill Pistols 3. giving you 10 dice before spec
thorya
QUOTE (VykosDarkSoul @ Jun 15 2012, 12:02 PM) *
The big stickler on this is making sure to note what adds directly to your skill, and what acts as a dice pool mod. Dice pool mods are not capped, whereas direct skill mods are. Example being enhanced articulation, adds 1 die to any active skill linked to a physical stat (sorry if wording is wrong). This COULD be added alnong with Pistols of 6 and improved combat skill Pistols 3. giving you 10 dice before spec


Enhanced articulation does not apply to combat skills, only to the Physical Skills listed on page 124 of SR4A.
ZeroPoint
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 15 2012, 11:46 AM) *
Wow zeropoint, just wow... you need to retake grammar. Can DOES NOT EQUAL must. If the sentence said.. A character MUST AIM then... you'd be right... it says can though. (can/may/must/etc. all have sleight but very important differences in meaning).

The rule says that once I call a shot I must immediately take the shot. (call a shot at the time of attack)
I CAN (but not MUST) use take aim actions PRIOR to calling then immediately taking the shot. (it's an option not a requirement, basic grammar).


There is no need to attack my intelligence for a possible misinterpretation.

QUOTE
Stealthsigma has it slightly wrong as well, calling the shot cannot be followed by take aim. It may make logical sense to call before aiming... but the abstract nature of the rules do it differently.


Except...from SR4A page 146 as i just was talking about under call a shot
QUOTE
Ca ll a Shot
A character may “call a shot” (aim for a vulnerable portion of a target)
with this Free Action. See Called Shots, p. 161. This action must be
immediately followed by a Take Aim, Fire Weapon, Throw Weapon,
or Melee Unarmed Attack.


It says right there that you can follow a call a shot action with take aim...

So you're wrong.

QUOTE
There is no contradiction to the 'take aim' rules. The called shot explicitly creates an exception to the base rule (you can't) for called shots only. (the reason for the "can" in the first place). If they had just said a called shot was a free action taken when firing... then you would NOT be able to combine the two. (you're not capable of... the rules don't allow. However the sentence creates an explicit exception, you CAN (are capable of) aiming then calling the shot when you fire.


That wasn't even the point I was making. But it doesn't matter, as I can see that with your above interpretation, there would be no contradiction.
VykosDarkSoul
QUOTE (thorya @ Jun 15 2012, 12:09 PM) *
Enhanced articulation does not apply to combat skills, only to the Physical Skills listed on page 124 of SR4A.


Thank you smile.gif (see...this is why i shouldnt post while I am at work, lol, and yet...i still do! ) Seriously tho, thanks for the correction.


The other thing I wanted to posit here though....again, correct me if I am wrong. You can make a called shot with a Melee weapon, and yet you CANNOT take aim with a melee weapon, therefore, it doesnt seem that you MUST take aim in order to make a called shot.
snowRaven
Ah yes, my bad on the Called Shot one, which is indeed a Free Action.

I was originally going with the gun bunny calling a shot on his previous action, then taking aim until it was time to fire - in editing that away I got confused (I blame lack of coffee and posting so early in the morning...)

The maximum expected total dice pools I quoted are roughly the same regardless, though.
Falconer
No enhanced articulation is NOT a skill modifier. It explicitly states "It provides it's user with a +1 DICE POOL MODIFIER on any test...." It does not modify the skill. (and people need to look at the list of physical skills tied to physical stats... this DOES NOT include combat skills like dodge/pistols/melee combat... only skills like running/swimming/...)


Reflex recorder:
"The reflex recorder adds 1 to the skill or skill group (Combat & Physical skills only)."
Note the clear difference in wording... not only that the former explicitly even says it's a dice pool mod. It never mentions the limitation on skill modifiers but it is only +1 dice...

Improved Ability:
"This power increases the rating of a specific Active skill by 1 per level. A skill's maximum modified rating equals its base rating x 1.5."

ZeroPoint
For further clarification on the reason for my interpretation (though it may be erroneous), here is the paragraph immediately before the first quote I produce

QUOTE
Characters may “call shots” in an attempt to increase the damage their
weapons will do. Calling a shot means that the character is aiming at
a vulnerable portion of a target, such as a person’s head, the tires or
windows of a vehicle, and so on. The gamemaster decides if such a
vulnerable spot is accessible.


When I read that through quickly, the reference to "aiming at a vulnerable portion of the target" put the take aim option in my mind so I must have superimposed that into my interpretation of the next paragraph

Still, that doesn't excuse your rude response and personal attack.

*takes off his gloves and slaps Falconer in the face with it*

You have insulted me sir and I hereby challenge you to a duel.

biggrin.gif
Falconer
Good catch snowRaven.

I looked at the melee section/ the ranged combat section... and neither of them said anything about it. As well as page 161. I missed page 146.


Looks like I got ninja'd on the enhanced articulation smile.gif.
ZeroPoint
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 15 2012, 12:20 PM) *
Reflex recorder:
"The reflex recorder adds 1 to the skill or skill group (Combat & Physical skills only)."
Note the clear difference in wording... not only that the former explicitly even says it's a dice pool mod. It never mentions the limitation on skill modifiers but it is only +1 dice...


This is the actual quote from sr4a page 347

QUOTE
Reflex Recorder: With this enhancement, extra neural material
is grown in small clusters around the thirty-one pairs of spinal nerves
to allow memorization of certain “learned” motor reflexes. The reflex
recorder adds 1 to the rating of a specific skill or skill group (Combat
and Physical skills only). Multiple recorders may be taken for multiple
skills, but the effects don’t stack. This bonus may be combined with
bonuses from other sources.


Adds 1 to the rating of a specific skill or skill group....seems pretty clear to me that it is a skill modifier
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 15 2012, 12:46 PM) *
Wow zeropoint, just wow... you need to retake grammar. Can DOES NOT EQUAL must. If the sentence said.. A character MUST AIM then... you'd be right... it says can though. (can/may/must/etc. all have sleight but very important differences in meaning).

The rule says that once I call a shot I must immediately take the shot. (call a shot at the time of attack)
I CAN (but not MUST) use take aim actions PRIOR to calling then immediately taking the shot. (it's an option not a requirement, basic grammar).

So your final example is wrong. Stealthsigma has it slightly wrong as well, calling the shot cannot be followed by take aim. It may make logical sense to call before aiming... but the abstract nature of the rules do it differently.


If I am wrong, then the text of the rulebook is wrong or you're basically trying to twist my usage of 'not required' into something that isn't there.

QUOTE (SR4A pg146)
A character may "call a shot" (aim for a vulnerable portion of a target) with this Free Action. See Called Shots, p. 161. This action must be immediately followed by a Take Aim, Fire Weapon, Throw Weapon, or Melee Unarmed Attack.


QUOTE (SR4A pg148)
A character may take aim with a ready ranged weapon (firearm, bow, or throwing weapon) as a Simple Action. Take Aim actions are cumulative, but the benefits are lost if the character takes any other kind of actions--including a Free Action--at any time.


According to the rules Take Aim actions cannot be taken before calling a shot. Calling a shot, a free action, immediately negates the benefits of taking aim. So while I was mistaken be including the phrase "not required" it is a bit misleading since it leaves open the possibility of Taking Aim prior to calling a shot which the rules prohibit. So the short is that nothing of yours which I quoted is correct so I suggest you refresh your memory of the rules.
Falconer
Stealth... look above... we're ninja'ing each other.

Already admitted I was in error on the take aim after calling.
Elfenlied
Let's see about stacking. Assume the following base:
Ambidexterity
Agi 12 (7 base+1 Suprathyroid Gland+4 Muscle Toner)
Pistols 7(10) (6 base+1 Aptitude+3 Improved Pistols)
Specialization +2
Red Dot Sight +1 (stupid, I know, but RAW it adds +1 after splitting, unless someone can quote an official source that denies this)
Ruger Thunderbolt (or any pistol really) modded for FA with Tracer Rounds
various Recoil comp and range penalty negating gear

So the base DP (before splitting) is 28 when firing FA with Tracers, or 25 when firing normally. Split, the DP is 17 when firing Tracers FA, or 14 when firing normally. Now, add in item attunement and possibly tacnets, which adds some extra dice. So a DP of 15 while dual wielding is well within the scope of a 150 Karma character.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jun 15 2012, 10:44 AM) *
Let's see about stacking. Assume the following base:
Ambidexterity
Agi 12 (7 base+1 Suprathyroid Gland+4 Muscle Toner)
Pistols 7(10) (6 base+1 Aptitude+3 Improved Pistols)
Specialization +2
Red Dot Sight +1 (stupid, I know, but RAW it adds +1 after splitting, unless someone can quote an official source that denies this)
Ruger Thunderbolt (or any pistol really) modded for FA with Tracer Rounds
various Recoil comp and range penalty negating gear

So the base DP (before splitting) is 28 when firing FA with Tracers, or 25 when firing normally. Split, the DP is 17 when firing Tracers FA, or 14 when firing normally. Now, add in item attunement and possibly tacnets, which adds some extra dice. So a DP of 15 while dual wielding is well within the scope of a 150 Karma character.


I just want to clean up the math before making some comments in general - Agi 12 + Pistols 10 = 22 + 3 (mods) = 25 (I'm ignoring the FA portion for now, it hurts my brain). Split would be 11 + 2 (specialization) + 1 (red dot sight (reflex sight?)) = 14.

I suppose I could see why reflex sights would still apply to dual wielding, at least over laser sights, but I've still never understood why smartgun links wouldn't work... not very smart if you ask me. Also, as for tac-net bonuses, those would also apply after the split for another easy 1 - 3 DP (getting the 4 without cheesing it is a bit tricky). But at creation this lacks some pull, as suprathyroid and toner 4 both are over availability 12. Taking Improved pistols 3 would also eat up a ton of your power points as well that would be better spent improved reflexes, as, if I'm not mistaken, combat skills are .75 PP before cap and 1.5 after cap. Damn my SR4A book being at home. It's really hyper specialization to the point of making you worthless in other areas.
Yerameyahu
More like 'just barely within the reach of a stupendously minmaxed character', but yes.
Elfenlied
Combat skills are 0.5 per rating. So a starting character could easily have both Improved Pistols 3 and Improved Reflexes 2. As for Muscle Toner and Suprthyroid Gland, 2x Restricted Gear will solve the issue at chargen.

Note that the OP mentioned that the character in question has around ~150 Karma.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Jun 15 2012, 11:20 AM) *
Taking Improved pistols 3 would also eat up a ton of your power points as well that would be better spent improved reflexes, as, if I'm not mistaken, combat skills are .75 PP before cap and 1.5 after cap. Damn my SR4A book being at home. It's really hyper specialization to the point of making you worthless in other areas.


Nope...

Combat Skill Improvement is 0.5 PP per Level, max of 3 levels (Assuming relevant Skill levels)...
Non-Combat Skill Improvements are .25 pp per level (max of 3 as well)

EDIT... Damn, did not see Elfenlied's Post.
Falconer
You can't fire two SMGs/pistols at once unless you use a simple action. (no double full 10rd bursts, or covering fire with 2 weapons at once).


I'm looking through elfen's post... and not seeing where he disinctly identifies the tracer bonus. But for long bursts (simple)... it would be +2 each. (not +3 if that's what he used).

I agree... red dot is not specifically denied...so if you're powergaming it up include it. However, that's only because the main rule book was written before hand would be my judgement. (It's described as a precursor to smartlink's) And having shot with them, they're not much different than laser sights (draw a red dot over your field of view instead of on the target with a laser). But it's not specifically named as disallowed, but as a GM you'd have a lot of ammo to say it's no different than a laser sight or smartlink which are disallowed.

Another problem is that pistols don't QUALIFY for most recoil comp. So even getting up to RC5 for a pistol is very hard while being very easy for a SMG/MP. So that's a significant source of -dicepool mod.

thorya
So break down of BP spent for this character. (it gets too complicated once you start blending karma and nuyen to determine exactly how the character was built)

Elf (for the +1 to agility, would be cheaper from metagenic, but you don't have quality points left to spend)- 30 BP
Ambidextrous- 5 BP
Hard max agility- 75 BP
Restricted Gear- 5 BP
Muscle Toner 4- 6.4 BP
Genetic Optimization Agility (or you can't stack all your other boosts)- 9 BP
1.0 Essense lost
Aptitude- 10 BP
Max Pistol Skill at 7- 32 BP
Specialization- 2 BP
Adept Quality- 5 BP
Magic (has to be at least 3 after losing 1 magic for ware)- 30 BP

That puts us at- 209.4 BP? That leaves a good 185 BP for everything else, after you buy guns, mod them, and stock pile ammo. Seems like a reasonable character to me. sarcastic.gif

We'll assume that the adept spent most of that karma on initiation, attunement and centering, because they can't get it at character creation with BP. For the 3 centering and 2 attunements he'll need 5 initiations, so 13+16+19+22+25=95 karma. He'll have to raise his magic to from 3 to 5 before he can get attunement for both his guns, so 20 karma + 25 karma = 45 karma. So he uses 140 karma.

Huh, I guess it is possible.

Edit: forgot ambidextrous and added genetic optimization and got rid of superthyroid because it doesn't stack.
Elfenlied
QUOTE (thorya @ Jun 15 2012, 07:13 PM) *
Hard max agility- 65 BP


Note that you need not hardmax agility; a 7 base is enough, since you get +5 from 'ware (4 muscle toner+1 suprathyroid). So it's only 50BP for Agility.
thorya
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jun 15 2012, 03:26 PM) *
Note that you need not hardmax agility; a 7 base is enough, since you get +5 from 'ware (4 muscle toner+1 suprathyroid). So it's only 50BP for Agility.


It only saves you 1 BP to do it that way. You still restricted gear 5 BP, the suprathryroid gland 9 BP, raise magic for the extra point of essense lost 10 BP.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jun 15 2012, 11:23 AM) *
Combat skills are 0.5 per rating. So a starting character could easily have both Improved Pistols 3 and Improved Reflexes 2. As for Muscle Toner and Suprthyroid Gland, 2x Restricted Gear will solve the issue at chargen.

Note that the OP mentioned that the character in question has around ~150 Karma.


Fair point on the improved ability, for some reason I swore it cost more if it was putting you over base cap.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Jun 15 2012, 02:17 PM) *
Fair point on the improved ability, for some reason I swore it cost more if it was putting you over base cap.


That is for the Ability to raise your actual Stats... 0.75 and 1.5
almost normal
And again, if a GM lets any such a character into a normal, average SR game, they should be ashamed.

God has his golden rule, but the golden rule for ShadowRun is : All things by the GM's approval.
Elfenlied
The sad Reality is that even with this amount of optimization, dual wielding is still a subpar choice. John Woo/Max Payne afficionados are better served with a different system.
VykosDarkSoul
Just getting some pages down so i can do some research, where does it talk about the laser sight and smartlink and duelwielding?
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (VykosDarkSoul @ Jun 15 2012, 03:52 PM) *
Just getting some pages down so i can do some research, where does it talk about the laser sight and smartlink and duelwielding?


SR4A - page 150 - Attacking using a second firearm.
snowRaven
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jun 15 2012, 07:44 PM) *
Let's see about stacking. Assume the following base:
Ambidexterity
Agi 12 (7 base+1 Suprathyroid Gland+4 Muscle Toner)
Pistols 7(10) (6 base+1 Aptitude+3 Improved Pistols)
Specialization +2
Red Dot Sight +1 (stupid, I know, but RAW it adds +1 after splitting, unless someone can quote an official source that denies this)
Ruger Thunderbolt (or any pistol really) modded for FA with Tracer Rounds
various Recoil comp and range penalty negating gear

So the base DP (before splitting) is 28 when firing FA with Tracers, or 25 when firing normally. Split, the DP is 17 when firing Tracers FA, or 14 when firing normally. Now, add in item attunement and possibly tacnets, which adds some extra dice. So a DP of 15 while dual wielding is well within the scope of a 150 Karma character.


You still have to get your Augmented Maximum Agi up to 12...with a natural 7 you'd only be at 11, right? Plus, remember to reduce the divided pool by the recoil if you're trying to go FA tracers. Otherwise you are limited to bursts, which give less of a bonus.

As far as the red dot sight goes... there may not be any text that specifically disallows it, but given that it's called a 'recursor' to smartlinks, and that it gives the same kind of bonus for roughly the same reason as a lasersight (except you actually have to look through the sight to see it, contrary to both smartlinks and lasersights), it's pretty safe to rule that it doesn't apply to dual wield.
(possibly with the exception if you use 'take aim' actions as if you were using a scope)
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