What counts when Duel Wielding? Options

[CrystalBlue]

So I'm going to pull this idea into it's own thread, since it seems to be my more pervasive problem then spirit force.

I have a gun bunny. He throws nearly 15 dice on each hand after penalties and splitting dice pools. I need to know how he did this or where his faults are. So I'm going to Chummer a quick Gun Bunny made the same way he was and see if I can get the same numbers. What I need help with is figuring out what the difference between a modifier and a base pool number is. My player is telling me that a lot of the rules on what a base number is as opposed to a modifier are ambiguous, so he's been opting them in his favor and adding everything as a modifier. I know for a fact he's an adept, taking abilities specifically for duel wielding guns, has Fire Fight and Krav Maga, both pistols as Weapon Foci (though I didn't think that was possible) and an ability of 8 before specialization and adept powers. I'lol post what IT think his pool comes out to being when I have it built.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, you cannot have a Skill of 8 in Pistols/Automatics/Longarms (Whichever he is using, I assume Pistols or Automatics) prior to Specialties and Adept Powers. Max is 7 IF, and only IF, they have the Aptitude Quality for that particular Skill. Otherwise it is 6.

[Yerameyahu]

It will be interesting to see the facts. Remember that there are also *negative* modifiers; in theory, live by the DP mod, die by the DP mod. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Not in practice, but still.

[snowRaven]

It is not possible to have the guns as Weapon Foci and apply the bonus to shooting tests. If they are weapon foci, they'll only give extra dice when used in melee combat. There is a metamagic, Attunement, that can give extra dice.

Improved ability Adept power adds to the skill, and has to be divided along with the base pool.

Lasersights don't give their bonus for Dual Wielding, and neither does Smartlinks.

Anything from the 'Ranged Combat Modifiers' and 'Visibility Modifiers' tables applies separately to each split pool, except for lasersights and smartlinks as noted above.

Aiming will only give a bonus to the first shot, but if he is aiming using a Free Action he can't use Centering. Also note what type of centering the character uses - they need to be able to perform it to get the benefits.


So, given your statement of skill 8(10):

We make her an Initiate Grade 4 with Adept Centering & Attunement, and give her Improved Ability (pistols) +2

Pistols 6((IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) (specialization +2), Agility 8

Divided by 2 thats 8(+2) for each gun, +2 for Attunement gives a total of 12

Adept Centering can negate up to -4 dice, so let's do a Called Shot for extra damage. If we assume that the guns have enough recoil compensation to negate recoil, and our shooter is at point-blank range (+2) firing at the spirit, negating 'attacker in melee' penalty with his martial arts, we get a total of 14 dice for each gun. If standing still and firing at a really massive target (Body 15+) you can get 16 dice. 17 if the pistols are burst-fire capable and using tracer rounds.

That's about as high as you can go. For every 2 extra initate grades, you can add 1 die to each gun, and eliminate 2 more dice worth of penalties. Maxing out agility and pistols and Improved ability (Pistols) should net you an extra 2 dice for each gun as well, and there are a few tricks from Augmentation that can give you an extra dice or two.

Most cases, your Initiate Grade 4 Gun bunny shouldn't be able to roll more than 12 dice for each hand - often less.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It is not possible to have the guns as Weapon Foci and apply the bonus to shooting tests. If they are weapon foci, they'll only give extra dice when used in melee combat. There is a metamagic, Attunement, that can give extra dice.

Improved ability Adept power adds to the skill, and has to be divided along with the base pool.

Lasersights don't give their bonus for Dual Wielding, and neither does Smartlinks.

Anything from the 'Ranged Combat Modifiers' and 'Visibility Modifiers' tables applies separately to each split pool, except for lasersights and smartlinks as noted above.

Aiming will only give a bonus to the first shot, but if he is aiming using a Free Action he can't use Centering. Also note what type of centering the character uses - they need to be able to perform it to get the benefits.


So, given your statement of skill 8(10):

We make her an Initiate Grade 4 with Adept Centering & Attunement, and give her Improved Ability (pistols) +2

Pistols 6((IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) (specialization +2), Agility 8

Divided by 2 thats 8(+2) for each gun, +2 for Attunement gives a total of 12

Adept Centering can negate up to -4 dice, so let's do a Called Shot for extra damage. If we assume that the guns have enough recoil compensation to negate recoil, and our shooter is at point-blank range (+2) firing at the spirit, negating 'attacker in melee' penalty with his martial arts, we get a total of 14 dice for each gun. If standing still and firing at a really massive target (Body 15+) you can get 16 dice. 17 if the pistols are burst-fire capable and using tracer rounds.

That's about as high as you can go. For every 2 extra initate grades, you can add 1 die to each gun, and eliminate 2 more dice worth of penalties. Maxing out agility and pistols and Improved ability (Pistols) should net you an extra 2 dice for each gun as well, and there are a few tricks from Augmentation that can give you an extra dice or two.

Most cases, your Initiate Grade 4 Gun bunny shouldn't be able to roll more than 12 dice for each hand - often less.

Can't make a called shot for both guns. I would also probably eliminate the called shot entirely. Why? Because if you cannot concentrate enough to use a simple laser sightr or smartlink, what makes you think you can concentrate hard enough to make a called shot, not to mention being able to do so with TWO weapons simultaneously.

Smartlinks and laser Sights give Aiming Bonuses... If they cannot be used, what makes you think aiming is feasible? Let alone aiming for a called shot.

Just sayin'

[ZeroPoint]

I believe making a called shot also requires a free action so at the start of each pass he has to choose what hes going to spend it on: take aim, called shot, and adept centering.

Also, if hes going to be attacking 2 seperate targets with his split attacks, both attacks get the -2 attacking multiple opponents penalty since the attacks are made simultaneously. He also must choose both targets before he rolls. If one shot failes to drop one opponent he cant change his mind on attacking someone else. He's stuck splitting attacks among designated targets.

[almost normal]

I thought you could raise the skill to 8 with Karma?

[ZeroPoint]

Also, per SR4A, you have to take aim first before you can even call a shot, which then is a free action. and only applies to one shot

So the above gun bunny would spend a free action to take aim once (for a +1 on one of the attack) and spend a simple action as a free action to call the shot(for the +4DV) and then get one simple action remaining. Which s/he could then split the dice and get the benefit of the +DV as well as the -4 DP penalty to the first attack, and the second attack would be unmodified unless the GM allows that the second attack was to the same location in which case you would not be able to attack a separate target.

QE: clarifications

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I thought you could raise the skill to 8 with Karma?

Absolutely Not...
Skills are hard-capped at 6, or 7 with the Aptitude Quality...

[ZeroPoint]

You can add to it with the adept ability as has been mentioned, and with a Reflex recorder (cultured bioware that adds +1 to a particular skill or skill group) but both of these are considered skill modifiers. They add to the skill not directly to the dice pool , in the same way that muscle toner adds to agility, not the dice pool (directly).


I believe, though i can't find anything about it atm, that skills have augmented maximums in the same ways as attributes. So, even if you could stack reflex recorder and improved combat ability 3, you'd skill be maxed at 9. But I can't support that statement.

[almost normal]

Absolutely Not...
Skills are hard-capped at 6, or 7 with the Aptitude Quality...

Go figure, never knew that.

Lovely how mages can initiate forever, yet non-mages get hard capped.

<3 MagicRun.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Go figure, never knew that.

Lovely how mages can initiate forever, yet non-mages get hard capped.

<3 MagicRun.

Never had a problem with that.... *Shrug*
There are so many things you can buy that I have yet to even see an issue with the caps.

Interestingly, I saw WAY more High Initiate Grade Adepts/Magicians in 2nd/3rd Edition than I have ever seen in 4th. Probably becasue you STARTED with Magic 6, and gained a MAgic Point for every initiation automatically in previous editions.

[Speed Wraith]

I believe, though i can't find anything about it atm, that skills have augmented maximums in the same ways as attributes. So, even if you could stack reflex recorder and improved combat ability 3, you'd skill be maxed at 9. But I can't support that statement.

150% of unaugmented max, just like attributes. So skills typically have a 9, or 10 with aptitude, max augmented rating. I don't have a page reference in front of me, but I've seen it enough to know it is there.

[ZeroPoint]

I was pretty sure thats what it was, but in either case, the most you could get is +3 assuming your actual skill is capped.

[StealthSigma]

Also, per SR4A, you have to take aim first before you can even call a shot, which then is a free action. and only applies to one shot

So the above gun bunny would spend a free action to take aim once (for a +1 on one of the attack) and spend a simple action as a free action to call the shot(for the +4DV) and then get one simple action remaining. Which s/he could then split the dice and get the benefit of the +DV as well as the -4 DP penalty to the first attack, and the second attack would be unmodified unless the GM allows that the second attack was to the same location in which case you would not be able to attack a separate target.

QE: clarifications

Take Aim is not required before Called Shot. Called Shot MUST be followed by a Take Aim action or an Attack. Take Aim actions must be followed with a take aim action or a ranged attack or else the benefit is lost. Take Aim actions are also Simple actions, not free actions.

Once you make a called shot or take aim you must follow through with an attack before doing anything else or else you have wasted those actions.

[ZeroPoint]

Take Aim is not required before Called Shot. Called Shot MUST be followed by a Take Aim action or an Attack. Take Aim actions must be followed with a take aim action or a ranged attack or else the benefit is lost. Take Aim actions are also Simple actions, not free actions.

Once you make a called shot or take aim you must follow through with an attack before doing anything else or else you have wasted those actions.

SR4A PG 161 second paragraph under the heading "Called Shots"

A character can only make a called shot with weapons that fire
in single-shot, semi-automatic, and burst-fire modes, as well as melee
weapons. A character can aim (see Take Aim, p. 148) and then call a
shot at the time of the attack. Calling the shot is a Free Action.

[almost normal]

Take aim can also be a free action with Krav Maga.

[ZeroPoint]

Take aim can also be a free action with Krav Maga.

True, but you only get one free action per pass, which means you would have to spend a simple action as a free action in order to both aim and call a shot in the same pass. Now you only have 1 simple action with which to shoot.

[CrystalBlue]

Can someone tell me where, in SR4A, it says that you only get one free action? It has always been assumed that you get as many free actions as you want, provided that they're reasonable.

[ZeroPoint]

Can someone tell me where, in SR4A, it says that you only get one free action? It has always been assumed that you get as many free actions as you want, provided that they're reasonable.

SR4A Page 146, first paragraph under the Main heading "The Action Phase"

When a character’s Action Phase arrives, he must decide what he’s
going to do. The character has many options to choose from: fire a
gun, cast a spell, activate a computer program, and so on. Each of these
is classified as one of three types of actions a character can take: Free,
Simple, or Complex. A character can take either two Simple Actions
or one Complex Action during his Action Phase. In addition, each
character may take one Free Action at any point in the Initiative Pass
(either during his own Action Phase or at any later time).

[ZeroPoint]

I would also like to note that under the Free actions list on that same page (where it lists a bunch of possible free actions) that the Call shot says that it must be immediately followed by a take aim, or some form of attack.

While this may seem like it would be in direct contradiction to what i quoted earlier, lets not forget that you can take up to 3 take aim actions in a row, So i think they included that so you could

Pass 1
>simple action (take aim)
>simple action (take aim)
>free action (call shot)
Pass 2
>simple action (take aim)
>simple action (shoot)

Otherwise, in the first pass you would just have to let that free action go to waste if you were planning on getting your 3rd take aim.

Nevermind, under take aim, it says you can't take any other action, even a free action or you have to start over. So yes, there is direct contradiction between both of the call shot descriptions.

I believe the actual call shot main heading on 161 would take precedence over the blurb under free actions though

[Speed Wraith]

Quick correction, after looking at my books, maximum skill rating is equal to base skill rating * 1.5, not maximum (SR4A, pg 118, third paragraph under "Skill Ratings"). So if you have 4 in a skill, your maximum augmented is only 6. I guess this is to prevent a hacker adept with a rank 1 in, say, Electronic Warfare, from having an effective 9 with a point and a half and a Way bonus. I don't think there would be any reason to do that, in practice, but there you have it.

[Falconer]

Wow zeropoint, just wow... you need to retake grammar. Can DOES NOT EQUAL must. If the sentence said.. A character MUST AIM then... you'd be right... it says can though. (can/may/must/etc. all have sleight but very important differences in meaning).

The rule says that once I call a shot I must immediately take the shot. (call a shot at the time of attack)
I CAN (but not MUST) use take aim actions PRIOR to calling then immediately taking the shot. (it's an option not a requirement, basic grammar).

So your final example is wrong. Stealthsigma has it slightly wrong as well, calling the shot cannot be followed by take aim. It may make logical sense to call before aiming... but the abstract nature of the rules do it differently.

There is no contradiction to the 'take aim' rules. The called shot explicitly creates an exception to the base rule (you can't) for called shots only. (the reason for the "can" in the first place). If they had just said a called shot was a free action taken when firing... then you would NOT be able to combine the two. (you're not capable of... the rules don't allow. However the sentence creates an explicit exception, you CAN (are capable of) aim beforehand if you wish.




CrystalBlue: I did this in your other thread and I'll do it once again...
You have 4 sources of dice which form a pool to be rolled. See the sidebar on p61, SR4a... "Shadowrun.... uses four distinct types of modifiers, attribute modifiers, skill modifiers, threshold modifiers, and DICE POOL MODIFIERS. Attribute and skill modifiers affect the character's relevant stats directly resulting in augmented Atttribute Ratings and MODIFIED skill ratings respectively."

Attributes (Augmented Attribute rating)
Skills (Augmented Skill rating)
Dice Pool Modifiers (these come AFTER the split, both positive and negative).
Threshold modifier doesn't matter (it's an opposed test... but this would be if it's threshold 2 vs 4 to notice something on a perception test. so irrelevant to the splitting mechanic).


Skills are limited to rating 6 (7 with a grossly overpriced quality... and the 7th rank costs DOUBLE in either BP OR KARMA). Given the new way that all skills are rolled skill + attribute in SR4 this is understandable... (though there are a lot of us who feel attribute is too much more important than skill in SR4 and that skill should count for more and potentially be uncapped). None of that is germane to a discussion of strict RAW though.

I don't see any issue with him aiming with one gun.. or calling for damage... just be aware that free actions aren't free.

It takes time to stack up free actions and I highly suggest you take time to read the action section carefully starting on p65. (this is one of those things I find that causes a lot of consternation because people just assume they can run for cover, while centering, talking to their allies, and casting a spell all at once.... they can't... casting is complex leaving only a free action... centering, talking, and running are all free actions... pick one). Free actions are special in that you can take them at your turn OR LATER in the initiative pass. Even a character with only a single pass... can delay it til a LATER pass using the delayed action rules (on p66). (that got a lot of surprise and complaints when I had a group of thugs hold their actions to fire on pass 3... instead of on pass 1 followed by 2 rounds of PC activity while the thugs did nothing... then the start of the 2nd combat turn).

[VykosDarkSoul]

150% of unaugmented max, just like attributes. So skills typically have a 9, or 10 with aptitude, max augmented rating. I don't have a page reference in front of me, but I've seen it enough to know it is there.

The big stickler on this is making sure to note what adds directly to your skill, and what acts as a dice pool mod. Dice pool mods are not capped, whereas direct skill mods are. Example being enhanced articulation, adds 1 die to any active skill linked to a physical stat (sorry if wording is wrong). This COULD be added alnong with Pistols of 6 and improved combat skill Pistols 3. giving you 10 dice before spec

[thorya]

The big stickler on this is making sure to note what adds directly to your skill, and what acts as a dice pool mod. Dice pool mods are not capped, whereas direct skill mods are. Example being enhanced articulation, adds 1 die to any active skill linked to a physical stat (sorry if wording is wrong). This COULD be added alnong with Pistols of 6 and improved combat skill Pistols 3. giving you 10 dice before spec

Enhanced articulation does not apply to combat skills, only to the Physical Skills listed on page 124 of SR4A.