No, worse. With a natural of 7, your maximum is 10. With a natural 8, the augmented maximum jumps to 12.

In case it still isn't clear, the character in my original post is a genetically optimized Elf with softmaxed agility, which happens to be 7. Therefore, the augmented max is 12, since the natural hardmax is 8.

I really hate to take the thunder from someone else when it comes to the RAW... but nothing explicitly states that red dot sights to not apply to dual wielding. SR4A simply states laser sights and Smartlinks. If the text for the red dot does not disallow it... I'm just saying; But straight by the book it is kosher.

What was said was that it should not be Kosher. SInce Red-Dot is a precursor to Smartlink, what makes you think it should be allowed?
I would disallow it.

I can hit exactly 15 pool when split:

Elf
Class II Surge (Metagenic Improvement [Agility])
Exceptional Attribute [Agility]
Adept
Genetic Optimization [Agility]

Improved Combat Ability [Pistols] 3
Attribute Boost [Agility] 2
Improved Physical Attribute [Agility] 2

6 base Pistols + 3 powers
12 base agility (hardcapped), boosted to 15

24 split to 12, then add 2 specialization and 1 red dot sight.
Note that the off-hand attack attack will be at 13 dice, since you don't have any room to get ambidexterity.

I personally have always felt smartlink should apply at a lesser bonus. But reflex sights are really easy to use, they aren't invading your field of view like smartlink nor are you searching for the red dot on your target. All that aside, the rules do NOT explicitly DISALLOW the bonus. That's the important part. Oversight? Probably, but the fact remains, SR4A Page 150 - firing a second firearm only excludes the bonus from a laser sight and smartlink.

The fact the rules don't disallow it. They didn't exist when the two-weapon rules were written (so they only mention lasers and smartlinks), and there's nothing about dual-wielding written into the red-dot rules.

And you probably should, and most people do, and so do I when I can. But by the letter of the rules, there's nothing preventing someone from getting the benefit.

I don't think anyone has disputed this. We just understand and noted the difference between "the rules don't say I can't" and being a good player/GM.

Would be pretty hard to include something in SR4A that was not around for the print run of SR4A. Don't you think?

Correct, but a good course of action would have been to have worded it in SR4A as "aiming bonuses do not apply to dual wielding" followed by reflex sights having the wording "these provide a +1 aiming bonus dice pool modifier" or "the benefits of reflex sights do not apply to dual wielding".

It's a bit like how I find the RAW wording of High Powered Modification to be irritating. "Provides a -2 dice pool penalty each time its fired due to excessive recoil". It doesn't necessarily mean that recoil compensation negates that penalty.

Sure, I get it, but it is pretty easily corrected at the table. You know it is an aiming bonus for Smartlinks and Laser Sights, so why would you allow an Aiming Bonus from Red-Dot to apply when the others obviously do not? Especially since it is an archaic aiming bonus compared to the other two. It is a powergaming move to argue otherwise. "Book doesn't SAY I can't, so I can" is not a good excuse.

As for High Power Modification... Also easily fixed, but you have two options. Either it can be reduced by RC or it Can't. Either it adds to Initial Shot, or it Does not. Make those decisions and move along. Each table may be different, dependant upon how they see it. Could it have been better? Sure. Is it a problem? Not really.

Oh, I agree. Shadowrun just isn't built around modularity. It would be far more modular and welcoming to extended content if things like modifiers were grouped so that rules can be established on rules rather than on items.



My preferred interpretation for High Powered is that it changes the recoil penalty for each shot fired to -2 rather than -1. So SA/SA is 0/-2. SB/SB is -4/-10.

We go with -2 to each action (so it impacts the first shot as well), but is compensatable with RC. So SA/SA is -2/-3, and SB/SB is -4/-5. This has worked well for us. Very few characters have chosen to utilize the HPC Mod.

SB/SB is -2/-5 normally... wouldn't it be -4/-7 with HPC? Likewise, wouldn't the SA/SA be -2/-5?

No its not... SB/SB is normally -2 for the first burst, and an additional -3 for the 2nd Burst (-1 for each additional Bullet) for a end total of -5 for both bursts combined. With HPS that converts (with our tules) to -4/-5 (total of -9)

SA/SA is 0/-1 Normally... With HPC is would be (with our rules) -2/-3.

I see the problem. I'm looking at total recoil penalty for the action though I did write -4/-7 incorrectly. I should have wrote -4/-9.

Yep... Looks like it...
No worries...

So for some reason the only time I really have time to check to forums is at work (go figure) and thus I am AFB when I am at work so I am going to make a few assumptions, correct me if I am wrong.

The aiming bonus from laser sight and smartlink are dissalowed when dual wielding (and for this purpose we will "assume" red dot as well).

What is the wording on this? Why are they dissalowed? I can understand in my mind why they would be, concentrating on two little reticles would be a pain in the arse, but I am just hoping for the wording here. Thank you!

There is no explanation. The rules simply state they don't work. This is probably a good thing, remember what stupid consequences the little "explanation" of Improved Invisibility causes?

Probably true, The reason I ask is that one of my players has posited that the adept ability "Multi-Tasking" would allow for the laser sight and/or Smartlink to function in this case. It was something that was well thought out and presented, and I tend not to dismiss these things out of hand.

Multi-tasking gives you absolutely no mechanical bonus in the midst of combat...

Again, i dont have books in front of me, but it was my understanding that Multi-tasking made Observe in detail a free action, and when not directly involved in combat gives 2 free actions per phase. Thus it does have a use even while in combat, and of course, we were discussing if it would be a feasible adaptation to allow someone with the supernatural ability to compartmentalize their attention use mutliple targeting reticles at once.

I'll posit one for you just for the sake of thought - what about a Techno with a smartlink CF? Given the way his brain works and processes the information, would the perhaps be eligible to receive the bonus whilst dual wielding? Heck, he could even have a sprite handling the processing of the information...

I think what was happening in this case, looking back on what I've talked with the player about, they are initiated at level 5. They have been spending all their karma to self initiate. They have Centering, Attunement, and three levels of that thing that allows you to take an extra power point as a meta magic. Because of this, the centering reduces penalties down by 5 and attunment (which I think adds per gun) adds five dice. So, on each split pool, the character is adding five dice per hand. I don't know what else was getting that pool up there for a human, maybe it was red dot or laser sight. But it was something, plus that attunement.

It wouldn't work RAW, but I believe it's an entirely reasonable HouseRule.

...

And my own list of them has probably just grown by one. *sigh*

Observation in Detail as a Free Action does not benefit a Gunbunny trying to gain the aiming bonus of a Smartlink. They are mechanically different things. You cannot aim two weapons simultaneously... even in real life. You can aim one, then shoot it and then shoot another weapon, but they happen in sequence, not in Parrallel. That is basically why you do not gain the bonus from Smartlink/Laser sights when dual weilding simultaneous shots. You cannot pay attention to each gun simultaneously, and in fact can only point in the general direction for BOTH guns simultaneously. They are not really considered to be aimed shots. Watch any action film where it is a common occurrence. NO AIMING WHATSOEVER (I know, I know... Hollywood).

I probably rambled a bit... Sorry.

Attunement only works if you actually spend karma to Attune the Individual Weapons. It is not a Category Attunement, but a SPECIFIC Weapon Attunement. ie. You must pay karma twice to attune two weapons, and they are very specific weapons.

In addition to having to pay Karma for Atunement, the metamagic only adds 1 dice per TWO initiate grades, if I remember correctly. So at Grade 5 he would only get 2 or 3 bonus dice (depending on how it's rounded - I don't have access to the books right now, so i can't check).

Also, remember that using Centering requires a Free Action, which means no aiming or calling shots in the same pass.

What if you slave 1 arm, to a sprite or pilot drone program? have it utilize the smart link in the gun and arm control mechanism, then you retain control of the other weapon... ;3

Cyberarm-drone anyone???

If this is possible, then your cyberarm would act on the pilot or sprite's initiative and not yours.

You *can* do that… with a cyber/mil-armor Weapon Mount, (possibly Articulated). AFAIK. But it's not really relevant.

So? Hey man, begger's can't be choosers, if anything it takes the burden off you.

And reduces the Dice pool Immensely...

I think he's referring to multi-taskings ability to watch multiple displays all at once and not suffer the 'distracted' penalty.... okay... he doesn't suffer the distracted penalty... now shoot without the smartlink bonuses like the rules say.


Overall... dual wielding can work fine with heavy pistols I've found... ~10-12 dice is still a lot more than most peoples reaction pools... and in close... 2 shots from two guns at point blank is generally good enough to drop someone. (you rarely drop people with single shots in SR4 I notice... normally you need to double tap)....

So in close quarters it's a good way to drop 2 mooks a round.

And when you need the precision more than the raw volume of fire... just don't fire both at once. So good judgement comes in as well mechanically speaking.

One thing to keep in mind about atunement (which gives a bonus equal to half the initiate's grade, rounded up), is that the adept "may not recieve benefits from more than one attuned item in a single action". And since the benefit only applies specifically to using the attuned item, I would say it is an obvious exception to the usual rule of modifiers being applied to both guns after the dice pool split.

I was actually going to point the Attunement thing out in the original thread, when I was doing the math on splitting to 15 in each hand... I think the player probably missed that, or assumed it meant "per test" instead of "per action."

Also, I recently re-read Adept Centering while looking at this. While the rules say it's a "variation of Centering available only to Adepts and Mystic Adepts", it doesn't explicitly require the Free Action as Centering does. As a GM, I would rule that since it's a variant of Centering, and Centering takes a Free Action, so would Adept Centering... but I could see people lawyering up on that.

Someone brought up Tracer Ammo. I would note that the Tracer bonus only applies at ranges greater that Short (where range penalties would be in effect (yes, the range penalties could be negated by Adept Centering, as well.) Also, if you're using a Simple Action, you're limited to short bursts, so... +1.

Anyway, here's how I do 15/15.

Elf
Adept
Ambidexterity
SURGE II (Metagenetic Imp. (Agility))
Aptitude (Pistols)
Restricted Gear (Muscle Toner IV)

Purchase Martial Arts II with Karma (per OP, Krav Maga and Firefight)
Manuevers: Full Offense

Magic 5(4)

Adept Powers: Improved Ability (Pistols) III
Initiations (3): Adept Centering, Attunement, Item (Guns), ????

'Ware: Muscle Toner IV, Genetic Optimization (Agility)

Agility 8 (12) (+1 for Oxygenater Fluorocarbons) = 13
Pistols 7 (10) (Semi-Auto)

OK, so Agil + Pistol = 23, split 11/12

Dice Pool Mods:
+2 Spec
+2 Full Offense Manuever
+2 Attuned Item (first shot, only one Attuned item bonus per action)
-1 Called Shot ( first shot only, -4 penalty reduced to -1 by Adept Centering)

By my math, that's a 16/16 split.

There are a few variations, instead of calling a shot, you can move into Point Blank for another +2 and negate the Attacker in Melee penalty with Adept Centering... makes for 19/18.

So... perhaps somewhat borderline cheesy, almost certainly overspecialized, but yeah, you're a killing machine. With Pistols.

Don't forget, Calling a Shot is a Free action, and so is Adept Centering (so somewhere along the line, you're sacrificing Simple Actions for Frees).

Actually, you can, if you have your reference points. It is just as easy to learn to shoot accurately to shoot from-the-hip in real life, though. I've done both with occasional success on a range, two targets set 45ish degrees apart, 30 yards, Rugar Mark II targeting pistols, and it is MUCH EASIER with iron sights with alignment dots, so you can tell your gun is level. I find it impossible to do with red-dot glass sights, as I can't tell what I am aiming at in my peripheral vision through them.

You can also aim (sequentially aim) two weapons much easier than the above by holding a steady line, and checking weapons individually, prior to firing simultaneously. This is possible to do even without practice, it requires simply a steady hand, and you hit 2 targets, having aimed both weapons carefully before the simultaneous discharge. I'm sure shadowrunnners skills must surely best an amateur range shooter that "combat stress" would not overrule these points either.

On real life comparisons, can someone explain to me how on earth laser sights DON'T help when dual wielding? They are a from-the-hip shooters wet dream: instant confirmation of intended target. Smartlink I can understand, with the gun-cam explanation, but lasers to me never made sense.

No, we already had a huge thread about that. *rocks back and forth and shakes*

Seriously though, don't fight with the RAW. Just change it if you disagree.

All work and no play makes Yera a dull boy.

Hehe. Personally, I think the right solution (only if this is even a problem at your table) was to allow reduced effectiveness of laser sights and smartlinks, but obviously nothing for red dot. It shouldn't be full bonus, and it shouldn't be nothing (if that's making people sad). But as we've seen, people abuse pool-splitting enough as it is. (And deserve nothing but punishment.)

If smartlinks worked like an FPS Hud, then they would stack with laser sights, and both would apply while dual-wielding.

But then again, Shadowrun isn't an FPS. But that's beside the point. Personally, I feel like the designers went out of their way to make dual-wielding highly undesirable from a mechanical standpoint, and allowing laser sights/smartlinks for dual-wielding probably wouldn't impact game balance much at all.

There's no great reason they'd stack; that information could easily be redundant.

It should be undesirable, but as I said, the munchkins always ruin everything. +2 to each hand would be a hefty additional imbalance.

They made dual-firing undesirable from a mechanic. There's nothing keeping you from dual wielding but only attacking with one weapon at a time. Consider it a way to "load" two types of ammunition and freely switch between them.

::shudder:: ....bad memories.....

Just add the sights to the pool BEFORE SPLITTING. Voila, done.

Unless it were more like a Rainbow Six: Raven Shield FPS...

I was shuddering at the shadowrun FPS that did get released (though i kind of feel dirty even associating it with shadowrun )

LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA IT NEVER HAPPENED LA LA LA!