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> The Patron Saint of Theives, Or, what happens when inspiration strikes in a marathon of Leverage
ggodo
post Jul 9 2012, 07:17 PM
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So, after watching The Miracle Job again I decided to take advantage of St. Nicholas being the patron saint of thieves, and of the Christian Theurgy Tradition to make a thief. Any help would be nice, going for a Robin Hood theme with him running to keep the church afloat. So, here's The Saint. Hopefully my spoiler tags work.

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Makki
post Jul 9 2012, 07:50 PM
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for a Christian mage I'd recommend spells like

holy water (acid stream)
purgatory (Ignite or Fireball)

plague of locusts (Bugs or Swarm)
Hail (Blizzard)
Darkness (Shadow or Mist)

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CanRay
post Jul 9 2012, 07:52 PM
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The Knights of St. Nicholas can be found in Safehouses.
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ggodo
post Jul 9 2012, 07:56 PM
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Ooh, clever. I like Darkness and Bugs, but the rest are a bit too lethal for the pacifist quality. Awesome for someone who thinks they're The Fist of God, though. That may be my next project.
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CanRay
post Jul 9 2012, 08:57 PM
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QUOTE (ggodo @ Jul 9 2012, 02:56 PM) *
Ooh, clever. I like Darkness and Bugs, but the rest are a bit too lethal for the pacifist quality. Awesome for someone who thinks they're The Fist of God, though. That may be my next project.
Mike Carpenter from The Dresden Files?
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Sengir
post Jul 9 2012, 09:03 PM
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QUOTE (ggodo @ Jul 9 2012, 07:17 PM) *
going for a Robin Hood theme with him running to keep the church afloat.

Why do Theurgists always end up as Catholic and working for the church? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
And Nicholas only is the patron saint of repentant thieves who bring their loot back, I doubt that is your character's plan...
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ggodo
post Jul 9 2012, 09:39 PM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 9 2012, 02:03 PM) *
Why do Theurgists always end up as Catholic and working for the church? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
And Nicholas only is the patron saint of repentant thieves who bring their loot back, I doubt that is your character's plan...

To answer the first question, it's likely because it's the most recognizable type. There's fifty gajillion types of Protestant, but they're less associated with the ridiculous cathedrals in Europe and being an international conspiracy. This seems especially true in the US where there's a Christian church on half the street corners and none of them are the same flavor. And then on top of that you have the Non-Denominationals that range from small cults centered on an individual preacher to larger groups trying to recombine the various Christians into one church. Do Mormons count? Nobody agrees on that, not even among the Mormons I've met. Christianity is a bit of a mess, but if there's one flavor that everyone's heard of, it's Catholic. In my case it's because I've grown up in Catholic schools of various levels of pleasantness, and feel more comfortable creating a Catholic character for fear of misrepresenting another branch. To answer the second, I'm thinking The Saint is a bit selective in his interpretation.
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Aerospider
post Jul 9 2012, 10:30 PM
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A nice colourful concept.

Some skill queries:

Flight - Is he a drake or did you mean Pilot Aircraft?

No combat skill - he's not much of a threat with that taser, but perhaps he'll overcome that with the element of Surprise.

You might want to consider the Hardware skill before putting that maglock sequencer to use.

As for spells, perhaps Hush for a thief? Sorry, I mean Silence of the Grave.
Catalogue is AWESOME for thieving. Uh ... nope, no analogy springs to mind.
Also, a sustaining focus or two might do him well.

How about taking St. Nick as a Mentor Spirit? Either change the name of an existing one (there must be a couple of likely candidates) or design a new one and show your GM.
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ggodo
post Jul 9 2012, 11:48 PM
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Hmmm. . . . I need to check my qualities again, I can't remember if I had the total correct. I didn't mean to take Flight, but it's in the athletics group. I'm not sure how that happened, I might want to redo my math there, see if I can get those points spread better. I also forgot that maglocks are hardware and not locksmithing. Re-Building AWAY!

EDIT:
New Build
Cat Mentor Spirit seems to fit the St. Nick I'm going for. So I'll just re-fluff that

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Krishach
post Jul 10 2012, 12:10 AM
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I am assuming RAW rules SR4A

RAW rule violations
~ You cannot have an addiction to caffeine, nicotine, or sugar. See Addiction, SR4A. Must be alcohol, street drugs, BTL, etc. Nate Ford was a Mod to Severe alcoholic, since you are a Leverage fan.
~ You cannot have +Fire Resistance 6, +Nonconductivity 6, +Thermal Damping 6 in a single suit of armor with an armor rating less than 12. Chameleon is limit rating 9 (total rating points). See Arsenal, armor customization.
~ You cannot have a chemical seal on chameleon cloak/suit. You can take Chemical Protection instead. See Chemical Seal, SR4A

I may be reading the line wrong, but I see no System for your commlink. Won't function without one, so your comm is worthless.
I see all Infiltration skillgroup sets at 4, though I am not sure if you did take it as a group. I assume you did, though

potential problems I see:
~ No combat skill. You've got 4 whole dice for that stun-gun.
~ You bought spirit binding material and have no Binding skill. You cannot default on Binding, so this is wasted money.
~ You have no Banishing skill (though it may not be in keeping with your char)
~ You have no spells worth much of anything against drones or vehicles, and a low weapon skill with a weapon not worth much against vehicles. Consider Powerbolt or lightning, as lightning can be used to pacify meat targets without (necessarily) killing them, and you have the nifty stun/incapacitate rules. Powerbolt, obviously, tends to be better against drones, as most have electrical shielding.

Personally, I tend to run solo break-in specialists, especially ones not optimized, with more edge than 2. It saves my bacon when against a wall.

EDIT: was writing this while you posted. Flight is not in the athletics skillgroup (Climbing, Gymnastics, Running, Swimming). Parachuting, if that is what you mean, is a solo skill. You may want to consider this, and a wing suit. Pilot Aircraft is a technical skill. Other than those, there is no Flight skill, so I have no idea to what you are referring.
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ggodo
post Jul 10 2012, 12:25 AM
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Which skill is tasers? I always mess up that and the armor mods. The rules for armor mods love changing every time I close the book it seems. I'm pretty sure I had System, but heck, I dunno if I actually did. I'll fix chem seals and swap Stunbolt for Powerbolt. Would Longhaul be an acceptable stimulant? It's not really a street drug.
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Krishach
post Jul 10 2012, 12:27 AM
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taser is a specialization of pistols. So, either Pistol 3, or Pistol(Taser) 1(+2) would both give you a dicepool of 8, as an example.

Not being your GM, longhaul seems to me an acceptable addiction, but possibly a hard one for you. Moderate must be taken daily, and long haul, with a duration for 4 days and nasty consequence if you take 2 in a row, is not a great choice, IMO. No reason you can't do it, though: Longhaul is a drug, and therefore available for addiction. It just may kill you before you kick it. Cram or Jazz might be better if you want a daily fix with benefits.
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Falconer
post Jul 10 2012, 01:53 AM
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Ohh... Robin Hood... .so you're going to steal from the corrupt tax collectors/government and give it back to the overtaxed. I like it!


Krischach: Flight was added to the athletics group. It was a new skill... and it's listed as part of the group.
p88 RC.

Though that parachute type suit might have an exotic skill IIRC... probably wrong. I can't remember which book the flying squrrel type wing suit was in.

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Blade
post Jul 10 2012, 08:59 AM
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I'd rather have St Dismas than St Nicholas.
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ggodo
post Jul 10 2012, 04:26 PM
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QUOTE (Krishach @ Jul 9 2012, 05:27 PM) *
taser is a specialization of pistols. So, either Pistol 3, or Pistol(Taser) 1(+2) would both give you a dicepool of 8, as an example.

Not being your GM, longhaul seems to me an acceptable addiction, but possibly a hard one for you. Moderate must be taken daily, and long haul, with a duration for 4 days and nasty consequence if you take 2 in a row, is not a great choice, IMO. No reason you can't do it, though: Longhaul is a drug, and therefore available for addiction. It just may kill you before you kick it. Cram or Jazz might be better if you want a daily fix with benefits.

Jazz sounds more like what I was going for with a stimulant addict, I didn't have my book when I suggested long haul, I forgot that it lasted so long.

QUOTE (Blade @ Jul 10 2012, 01:59 AM) *
I'd rather have St Dismas than St Nicholas.

But then my mentor spirit isn't Santa.

Anyway, here's the newer fixed build. Thanks for your help.
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MADness
post Jul 10 2012, 07:20 PM
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Protestant churches also don't recognize papal authority as divine. Christian Theurgey is a Catholic invention (I believe, could be wrong).

For Protestant denominations, the most well known are Baptist (with a bajillion subdivisions), Methodists (far fewere sub-groups), Pentecostal (really a small number, but most charismatic denominations are misapplied as Pentecostal), and either Episcopalian or Lutheran; I feel obligated to include Nazarene, as they are one of the largest Protestant denominations globally, if not here in the states.

Essentially, you're better off defining Protestants by philosophy rather than doctrine. Calvinist (that would mostly be Baptists), Charismatic (Pentecostal and a fair number of non-denoms), Wesleyan (Methodist, Nazarene, and other similiar branches), and Liturgical (Lutheran and the like).

The two most likely to accept Christian Theurgy are Liturgical and Wesleyan. Charismatics would likely end up being more like the old school shamanic tradition. And Calvinism lends itself to the magic=evil.

I've actually done a fair amount of writing and thought on Christianity and the Sixth World, but religion rarely seems like something most fans and writers of Shadowrun care about.
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Iduno
post Jul 10 2012, 07:34 PM
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Religion is probably less of a motivator for shadowrunners because most religions frown upon killing people, stealing, and lying. I'm a bit surprised to see that Thugee isn't a choice for tradition.

Probably most religious shadowrunners would not work directly for a church, because of their actions. Plus learning on your own gives you more leeway to justify, miss, or misinterpret rules in a way that allows you to be a shadowrunner.

As for the choice of Catholicism, nobody else I know of recognizes and venerates the Catholic saints.
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MADness
post Jul 10 2012, 07:55 PM
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I knew I forgot to make a point. Though, many Protestant denominations have immense respect for both the Papacy and the Saints; I doubt it'd be enough for the purpose of Theaurgy
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Sengir
post Jul 10 2012, 08:16 PM
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QUOTE (ggodo @ Jul 9 2012, 10:39 PM) *
To answer the first question, it's likely because it's the most recognizable type. There's fifty gajillion types of Protestant, but they're less associated with the ridiculous cathedrals in Europe and being an international conspiracy. This seems especially true in the US where there's a Christian church on half the street corners and none of them are the same flavor. And then on top of that you have the Non-Denominationals that range from small cults centered on an individual preacher to larger groups trying to recombine the various Christians into one church. Do Mormons count? Nobody agrees on that, not even among the Mormons I've met. Christianity is a bit of a mess, but if there's one flavor that everyone's heard of, it's Catholic.

That still does not necessitate working FOR the church, a Catholic runner with slightly loose views on moral commandments would be better of as freelancer;)
Speaking of commandments, the official Catholic doctrine on spirits is that summoning is a highly sensitive area of faith and thus shall be left to those trained accordingly. So you might choose a quality like Aspected Mage or Incompetent to reflect that
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ggodo
post Jul 10 2012, 08:49 PM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 10 2012, 12:16 PM) *
That still does not necessitate working FOR the church, a Catholic runner with slightly loose views on moral commandments would be better of as freelancer;)
Speaking of commandments, the official Catholic doctrine on spirits is that summoning is a highly sensitive area of faith and thus shall be left to those trained accordingly. So you might choose a quality like Aspected Mage or Incompetent to reflect that

Ah, the second part of the question sorta got lost. My character isn't working for The Church, he's working for one specific church. To answer the general part, I think the "Church as international conspiracy" part stands as why most theurgists seem to be working for The Church.
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Krishach
post Jul 10 2012, 10:15 PM
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QUOTE (Falconer @ Jul 10 2012, 02:53 AM) *
Krischach: Flight was added to the athletics group. It was a new skill... and it's listed as part of the group.

Aha, thanks. Wasn't even considering the shifters.

On topic: Christian theology, like Islamic religion and most major rigid religions, has had more people misinterpret, reinterpret, or simply ignore, whatever it is they feel like. "Robin Hood" as a practice is technically condemned by Catholic law, and yet the story exists anyway. There isn't anything that says you can't do this.

Depending on the GM (I would bring this up), you may have to be prepared for detractors and dissidents who condemn such a practice, as a "soft" result. But I would encourage you to explore such things.

As an example, in the Leverage episode, Nate Ford argues with Father Paul as to the actions his team took, and Father Paul condemns the practice of lying and stealing, even for a good reason. But throughout the episode, the church does not accept such actions. Something to think about.
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ggodo
post Jul 10 2012, 11:28 PM
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I would expect nothing less than that from any competent GM, heck, handing out plothooks is half the fun of being a player for me. Since I seem to be Perpetual GM I figure I'll help out whenever someone else wants to.
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Inu
post Jul 11 2012, 12:37 AM
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QUOTE (Iduno @ Jul 11 2012, 06:34 AM) *
Religion is probably less of a motivator for shadowrunners because most religions frown upon killing people, stealing, and lying. I'm a bit surprised to see that Thugee isn't a choice for tradition.

Probably most religious shadowrunners would not work directly for a church, because of their actions. Plus learning on your own gives you more leeway to justify, miss, or misinterpret rules in a way that allows you to be a shadowrunner.

As for the choice of Catholicism, nobody else I know of recognizes and venerates the Catholic saints.

Well, Thuggees likely never existed -- the only record of them was in the correspondence of a British provincial governor who was later shown to have made up a bunch of stuff to make himself seem more important. Given that there is no evidence from examining any other records, it's likely that he just invented the cult just to get more resources sent his way.

And Temple of Doom was a giant clusterfrig of Hindu religion -- there is a demon called Kali, but that one is male-gendered. The female Kali is a god who, while nasty-dangerous, is on the side of good. Afew Hindu traditions say she's on the nasty side, but in others, she's actually the chief god. (And the demon Kali -- who is the ruler of this age, it being a realm of demons -- is opposed by Vishnu, not Shiva. Shiva being the god of life? For god's sake, that's wilfully terrible. Extra insult given that Shiva is the husband of the god Kali.)

I'm not saying that movies should be True To Life in every case, but the theology in Temple of Doom was so bad that it relied on audences' ignorance to be enjoyable, and I still run into people who think that the female god Kali was evil and that Shiva is the god of life. Jeez. There's a reason the film was banned in India.
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Krishach
post Jul 11 2012, 02:11 PM
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add to that fact that few people do their own REAL research anymore (wiki can kiss my ass, it's not a valid source), and believe largely what people tell them in a confident manner, or read, and you have every nuance of interpretation of every religion you can think of. As bad as the Kali/Shiva mixup, there are equally appalling mix ups that people assume from religions everywhere.

Couple that with the fact that people will rabidly defend their beliefs, MORE SO when given information to the contrary, and "clusterf&%k" does not begin to describe the ideological idea pool.

As a result, I tend to tell players who put enough into their characters to actually give two shakes, "If your character believes it is so, then it is so for your character." Psychological reinforcement makes this little piece more fact than fiction anyway. If a player tells me his take on whatever religion it is, I'll never call it wrong: I will find NPCs to do that for me. And the arguments would happen even if the PC was standing on theological bedrock, because you'll eventually find someone to believe an idea, no matter how stupid it may seem.

"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart." H.L. Mencken
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MADness
post Jul 11 2012, 10:31 PM
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I'm glad you said that in such a way as to include Christianity. While I never call it persecuted in most countries, it is an oft confused religion. And it's legally restricted or out right banned in fifty plus countries.

After reading over this character, I wanted to restat my courier without Frank's rules. No luck. May I recommend tranq patches? As a stun weapon.

Also, now I sant to stat out an entirely religious crew. This would include your b&e guy, my courier, a hand-of-god type-o warrior, a cleric, and post Street Warrior Michael Carpenter.
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