Dumpshock Forums > The Patron Saint of Theives

ggodo

Jul 9 2012, 07:17 PM

So, after watching The Miracle Job again I decided to take advantage of St. Nicholas being the patron saint of thieves, and of the Christian Theurgy Tradition to make a thief. Any help would be nice, going for a Robin Hood theme with him running to keep the church afloat. So, here's The Saint. Hopefully my spoiler tags work.

[ Spoiler ]

Makki

Jul 9 2012, 07:50 PM

for a Christian mage I'd recommend spells like

holy water (acid stream)
purgatory (Ignite or Fireball)

plague of locusts (Bugs or Swarm)
Hail (Blizzard)
Darkness (Shadow or Mist)

CanRay

Jul 9 2012, 07:52 PM

The Knights of St. Nicholas can be found in Safehouses.

ggodo

Jul 9 2012, 07:56 PM

Ooh, clever. I like Darkness and Bugs, but the rest are a bit too lethal for the pacifist quality. Awesome for someone who thinks they're The Fist of God, though. That may be my next project.

CanRay

Jul 9 2012, 08:57 PM

QUOTE (ggodo @ Jul 9 2012, 02:56 PM)

Ooh, clever. I like Darkness and Bugs, but the rest are a bit too lethal for the pacifist quality. Awesome for someone who thinks they're The Fist of God, though. That may be my next project.

Mike Carpenter from The Dresden Files?

Sengir

Jul 9 2012, 09:03 PM

QUOTE (ggodo @ Jul 9 2012, 07:17 PM)

going for a Robin Hood theme with him running to keep the church afloat.

Why do Theurgists always end up as Catholic and working for the church?

And Nicholas only is the patron saint of repentant thieves who bring their loot back, I doubt that is your character's plan...

ggodo

Jul 9 2012, 09:39 PM

QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 9 2012, 02:03 PM)

Why do Theurgists always end up as Catholic and working for the church?

And Nicholas only is the patron saint of repentant thieves who bring their loot back, I doubt that is your character's plan...

To answer the first question, it's likely because it's the most recognizable type. There's fifty gajillion types of Protestant, but they're less associated with the ridiculous cathedrals in Europe and being an international conspiracy. This seems especially true in the US where there's a Christian church on half the street corners and none of them are the same flavor. And then on top of that you have the Non-Denominationals that range from small cults centered on an individual preacher to larger groups trying to recombine the various Christians into one church. Do Mormons count? Nobody agrees on that, not even among the Mormons I've met. Christianity is a bit of a mess, but if there's one flavor that everyone's heard of, it's Catholic. In my case it's because I've grown up in Catholic schools of various levels of pleasantness, and feel more comfortable creating a Catholic character for fear of misrepresenting another branch. To answer the second, I'm thinking The Saint is a bit selective in his interpretation.

Aerospider

Jul 9 2012, 10:30 PM

A nice colourful concept.

Some skill queries:

Flight - Is he a drake or did you mean Pilot Aircraft?

No combat skill - he's not much of a threat with that taser, but perhaps he'll overcome that with the element of Surprise.

You might want to consider the Hardware skill before putting that maglock sequencer to use.

As for spells, perhaps Hush for a thief? Sorry, I mean Silence of the Grave.
Catalogue is AWESOME for thieving. Uh ... nope, no analogy springs to mind.
Also, a sustaining focus or two might do him well.

How about taking St. Nick as a Mentor Spirit? Either change the name of an existing one (there must be a couple of likely candidates) or design a new one and show your GM.

ggodo

Jul 9 2012, 11:48 PM

Hmmm. . . . I need to check my qualities again, I can't remember if I had the total correct. I didn't mean to take Flight, but it's in the athletics group. I'm not sure how that happened, I might want to redo my math there, see if I can get those points spread better. I also forgot that maglocks are hardware and not locksmithing. Re-Building AWAY!

EDIT:
New Build
Cat Mentor Spirit seems to fit the St. Nick I'm going for. So I'll just re-fluff that

[ Spoiler ]

Krishach

Jul 10 2012, 12:10 AM

I am assuming RAW rules SR4A

RAW rule violations
~ You cannot have an addiction to caffeine, nicotine, or sugar. See Addiction, SR4A. Must be alcohol, street drugs, BTL, etc. Nate Ford was a Mod to Severe alcoholic, since you are a Leverage fan.
~ You cannot have +Fire Resistance 6, +Nonconductivity 6, +Thermal Damping 6 in a single suit of armor with an armor rating less than 12. Chameleon is limit rating 9 (total rating points). See Arsenal, armor customization.
~ You cannot have a chemical seal on chameleon cloak/suit. You can take Chemical Protection instead. See Chemical Seal, SR4A

I may be reading the line wrong, but I see no System for your commlink. Won't function without one, so your comm is worthless.
I see all Infiltration skillgroup sets at 4, though I am not sure if you did take it as a group. I assume you did, though

potential problems I see:
~ No combat skill. You've got 4 whole dice for that stun-gun.
~ You bought spirit binding material and have no Binding skill. You cannot default on Binding, so this is wasted money.
~ You have no Banishing skill (though it may not be in keeping with your char)
~ You have no spells worth much of anything against drones or vehicles, and a low weapon skill with a weapon not worth much against vehicles. Consider Powerbolt or lightning, as lightning can be used to pacify meat targets without (necessarily) killing them, and you have the nifty stun/incapacitate rules. Powerbolt, obviously, tends to be better against drones, as most have electrical shielding.

Personally, I tend to run solo break-in specialists, especially ones not optimized, with more edge than 2. It saves my bacon when against a wall.

EDIT: was writing this while you posted. Flight is not in the athletics skillgroup (Climbing, Gymnastics, Running, Swimming). Parachuting, if that is what you mean, is a solo skill. You may want to consider this, and a wing suit. Pilot Aircraft is a technical skill. Other than those, there is no Flight skill, so I have no idea to what you are referring.

ggodo

Jul 10 2012, 12:25 AM

Which skill is tasers? I always mess up that and the armor mods. The rules for armor mods love changing every time I close the book it seems. I'm pretty sure I had System, but heck, I dunno if I actually did. I'll fix chem seals and swap Stunbolt for Powerbolt. Would Longhaul be an acceptable stimulant? It's not really a street drug.

Krishach

Jul 10 2012, 12:27 AM

taser is a specialization of pistols. So, either Pistol 3, or Pistol(Taser) 1(+2) would both give you a dicepool of 8, as an example.

Not being your GM, longhaul seems to me an acceptable addiction, but possibly a hard one for you. Moderate must be taken daily, and long haul, with a duration for 4 days and nasty consequence if you take 2 in a row, is not a great choice, IMO. No reason you can't do it, though: Longhaul is a drug, and therefore available for addiction. It just may kill you before you kick it. Cram or Jazz might be better if you want a daily fix with benefits.

Falconer

Jul 10 2012, 01:53 AM

Ohh... Robin Hood... .so you're going to steal from the corrupt tax collectors/government and give it back to the overtaxed. I like it!

Krischach: Flight was added to the athletics group. It was a new skill... and it's listed as part of the group.
p88 RC.

Though that parachute type suit might have an exotic skill IIRC... probably wrong. I can't remember which book the flying squrrel type wing suit was in.

Blade

Jul 10 2012, 08:59 AM

I'd rather have St Dismas than St Nicholas.

ggodo

Jul 10 2012, 04:26 PM

QUOTE (Krishach @ Jul 9 2012, 05:27 PM)

taser is a specialization of pistols. So, either Pistol 3, or Pistol(Taser) 1(+2) would both give you a dicepool of 8, as an example.

Not being your GM, longhaul seems to me an acceptable addiction, but possibly a hard one for you. Moderate must be taken daily, and long haul, with a duration for 4 days and nasty consequence if you take 2 in a row, is not a great choice, IMO. No reason you can't do it, though: Longhaul is a drug, and therefore available for addiction. It just may kill you before you kick it. Cram or Jazz might be better if you want a daily fix with benefits.

Jazz sounds more like what I was going for with a stimulant addict, I didn't have my book when I suggested long haul, I forgot that it lasted so long.

QUOTE (Blade @ Jul 10 2012, 01:59 AM)

I'd rather have St Dismas than St Nicholas.

But then my mentor spirit isn't Santa.

Anyway, here's the newer fixed build. Thanks for your help.

[ Spoiler ]

MADness

Jul 10 2012, 07:20 PM

Protestant churches also don't recognize papal authority as divine. Christian Theurgey is a Catholic invention (I believe, could be wrong).

For Protestant denominations, the most well known are Baptist (with a bajillion subdivisions), Methodists (far fewere sub-groups), Pentecostal (really a small number, but most charismatic denominations are misapplied as Pentecostal), and either Episcopalian or Lutheran; I feel obligated to include Nazarene, as they are one of the largest Protestant denominations globally, if not here in the states.

Essentially, you're better off defining Protestants by philosophy rather than doctrine. Calvinist (that would mostly be Baptists), Charismatic (Pentecostal and a fair number of non-denoms), Wesleyan (Methodist, Nazarene, and other similiar branches), and Liturgical (Lutheran and the like).

The two most likely to accept Christian Theurgy are Liturgical and Wesleyan. Charismatics would likely end up being more like the old school shamanic tradition. And Calvinism lends itself to the magic=evil.

I've actually done a fair amount of writing and thought on Christianity and the Sixth World, but religion rarely seems like something most fans and writers of Shadowrun care about.

Iduno

Jul 10 2012, 07:34 PM

Religion is probably less of a motivator for shadowrunners because most religions frown upon killing people, stealing, and lying. I'm a bit surprised to see that Thugee isn't a choice for tradition.

Probably most religious shadowrunners would not work directly for a church, because of their actions. Plus learning on your own gives you more leeway to justify, miss, or misinterpret rules in a way that allows you to be a shadowrunner.

As for the choice of Catholicism, nobody else I know of recognizes and venerates the Catholic saints.

MADness

Jul 10 2012, 07:55 PM

I knew I forgot to make a point. Though, many Protestant denominations have immense respect for both the Papacy and the Saints; I doubt it'd be enough for the purpose of Theaurgy

Sengir

Jul 10 2012, 08:16 PM

QUOTE (ggodo @ Jul 9 2012, 10:39 PM)

To answer the first question, it's likely because it's the most recognizable type. There's fifty gajillion types of Protestant, but they're less associated with the ridiculous cathedrals in Europe and being an international conspiracy. This seems especially true in the US where there's a Christian church on half the street corners and none of them are the same flavor. And then on top of that you have the Non-Denominationals that range from small cults centered on an individual preacher to larger groups trying to recombine the various Christians into one church. Do Mormons count? Nobody agrees on that, not even among the Mormons I've met. Christianity is a bit of a mess, but if there's one flavor that everyone's heard of, it's Catholic.

That still does not necessitate working FOR the church, a Catholic runner with slightly loose views on moral commandments would be better of as freelancer;)
Speaking of commandments, the official Catholic doctrine on spirits is that summoning is a highly sensitive area of faith and thus shall be left to those trained accordingly. So you might choose a quality like Aspected Mage or Incompetent to reflect that

ggodo

Jul 10 2012, 08:49 PM

QUOTE (Sengir @ Jul 10 2012, 12:16 PM)

That still does not necessitate working FOR the church, a Catholic runner with slightly loose views on moral commandments would be better of as freelancer;)
Speaking of commandments, the official Catholic doctrine on spirits is that summoning is a highly sensitive area of faith and thus shall be left to those trained accordingly. So you might choose a quality like Aspected Mage or Incompetent to reflect that

Ah, the second part of the question sorta got lost. My character isn't working for The Church, he's working for one specific church. To answer the general part, I think the "Church as international conspiracy" part stands as why most theurgists seem to be working for The Church.

Krishach

Jul 10 2012, 10:15 PM

QUOTE (Falconer @ Jul 10 2012, 02:53 AM)

Krischach: Flight was added to the athletics group. It was a new skill... and it's listed as part of the group.

Aha, thanks. Wasn't even considering the shifters.

On topic: Christian theology, like Islamic religion and most major rigid religions, has had more people misinterpret, reinterpret, or simply ignore, whatever it is they feel like. "Robin Hood" as a practice is technically condemned by Catholic law, and yet the story exists anyway. There isn't anything that says you can't do this.

Depending on the GM (I would bring this up), you may have to be prepared for detractors and dissidents who condemn such a practice, as a "soft" result. But I would encourage you to explore such things.

As an example, in the Leverage episode, Nate Ford argues with Father Paul as to the actions his team took, and Father Paul condemns the practice of lying and stealing, even for a good reason. But throughout the episode, the church does not accept such actions. Something to think about.

ggodo

Jul 10 2012, 11:28 PM

I would expect nothing less than that from any competent GM, heck, handing out plothooks is half the fun of being a player for me. Since I seem to be Perpetual GM I figure I'll help out whenever someone else wants to.

Inu

Jul 11 2012, 12:37 AM

QUOTE (Iduno @ Jul 11 2012, 06:34 AM)

Religion is probably less of a motivator for shadowrunners because most religions frown upon killing people, stealing, and lying. I'm a bit surprised to see that Thugee isn't a choice for tradition.

Probably most religious shadowrunners would not work directly for a church, because of their actions. Plus learning on your own gives you more leeway to justify, miss, or misinterpret rules in a way that allows you to be a shadowrunner.

As for the choice of Catholicism, nobody else I know of recognizes and venerates the Catholic saints.

Well, Thuggees likely never existed -- the only record of them was in the correspondence of a British provincial governor who was later shown to have made up a bunch of stuff to make himself seem more important. Given that there is no evidence from examining any other records, it's likely that he just invented the cult just to get more resources sent his way.

And Temple of Doom was a giant clusterfrig of Hindu religion -- there is a demon called Kali, but that one is male-gendered. The female Kali is a god who, while nasty-dangerous, is on the side of good. Afew Hindu traditions say she's on the nasty side, but in others, she's actually the chief god. (And the demon Kali -- who is the ruler of this age, it being a realm of demons -- is opposed by Vishnu, not Shiva. Shiva being the god of life? For god's sake, that's wilfully terrible. Extra insult given that Shiva is the husband of the god Kali.)

I'm not saying that movies should be True To Life in every case, but the theology in Temple of Doom was so bad that it relied on audences' ignorance to be enjoyable, and I still run into people who think that the female god Kali was evil and that Shiva is the god of life. Jeez. There's a reason the film was banned in India.

Krishach

Jul 11 2012, 02:11 PM

add to that fact that few people do their own REAL research anymore (wiki can kiss my ass, it's not a valid source), and believe largely what people tell them in a confident manner, or read, and you have every nuance of interpretation of every religion you can think of. As bad as the Kali/Shiva mixup, there are equally appalling mix ups that people assume from religions everywhere.

Couple that with the fact that people will rabidly defend their beliefs, MORE SO when given information to the contrary, and "clusterf&%k" does not begin to describe the ideological idea pool.

As a result, I tend to tell players who put enough into their characters to actually give two shakes, "If your character believes it is so, then it is so for your character." Psychological reinforcement makes this little piece more fact than fiction anyway. If a player tells me his take on whatever religion it is, I'll never call it wrong: I will find NPCs to do that for me. And the arguments would happen even if the PC was standing on theological bedrock, because you'll eventually find someone to believe an idea, no matter how stupid it may seem.

"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart." H.L. Mencken

MADness

Jul 11 2012, 10:31 PM

I'm glad you said that in such a way as to include Christianity. While I never call it persecuted in most countries, it is an oft confused religion. And it's legally restricted or out right banned in fifty plus countries.

After reading over this character, I wanted to restat my courier without Frank's rules. No luck. May I recommend tranq patches? As a stun weapon.

Also, now I sant to stat out an entirely religious crew. This would include your b&e guy, my courier, a hand-of-god type-o warrior, a cleric, and post Street Warrior Michael Carpenter.

ggodo

Jul 11 2012, 10:54 PM

Well, here's The Saint with fixed armor.

[ Spoiler ]

Krishach

Jul 12 2012, 06:39 AM

Armor is still against RAW. You still have Chem Seal on the armor, which you cannot have on that suit, and it's 10 rating on max 9 armor still. You can only have Chemical Protection on that gear, which has a rating.
Armor add-ons without a rating count as rating 1 toward the total, which is 1.5x the highest attribute, rounded up, OR 6, which-ever is higher. Please take the time to read Arsenal pg 44, Maximum Armor Modiﬁcations

It's not blatantly specified, but I assume the Cat Mentor Spirit bonus is going for infiltration? You also need to specify what powers you are discounting on the Invisible Way. I assume Traceless Walk is one, otherwise you can't afford all those powers anyway. Please indicate after those qualities what you are choosing, just like with your powers.

Shadowing 4 gives a dice pool of 7, not 8

Byrel

Jul 12 2012, 08:13 AM

QUOTE (MADness @ Jul 10 2012, 03:20 PM)

Essentially, you're better off defining Protestants by philosophy rather than doctrine. Calvinist (that would mostly be Baptists), Charismatic (Pentecostal and a fair number of non-denoms), Wesleyan (Methodist, Nazarene, and other similiar branches), and Liturgical (Lutheran and the like).

A minor nitpick; most Baptists would generally be more Armenian than Calvinist. Dispensations vs. Covenants, etc. (At least in the states.) Your Presbyterians and Reformed churches would be more Calvinist.

However, it doesn't much matter for this character. Neither Calvinists nor Armenians would be likely to accept any system set up by the pope. Even if they agreed in all particulars.

ggodo

Jul 12 2012, 03:41 PM

Oop, post chem-seal Saint

[ Spoiler ]

Krishach

Jul 12 2012, 08:29 PM

A reminder: your Comm OS must meet or exceed your program or the programs function at the lesser rating, with the options you chose. It is not explicitly stated, but some GMs include firewall in this. As your GM if you need a rating 6 or just 4. I am not familiar with the comm listing you used (4,6,0,4), which I thought is usually Signal, Response, Firewall, System, but clearly that isn't the case. Anyway, if your GM requires System of 6 to get a Firewall of 6, then you also need a Response of 6.

Shadowing dice pool is still off.

Mentor Spirit and Invisible Way bonuses and discounts still not labeled.

I also notice you have a Focus Formulae, but no skill for Enchanting. I assume you will pick up the skill later? Because you cannot default on Enchanting; you must have the skill to use it.

MADness

Jul 12 2012, 10:10 PM

QUOTE (Byrel @ Jul 12 2012, 02:13 AM)

A minor nitpick; most Baptists would generally be more Armenian than Calvinist. Dispensations vs. Covenants, etc. (At least in the states.) Your Presbyterians and Reformed churches would be more Calvinist.

However, it doesn't much matter for this character. Neither Calvinists nor Armenians would be likely to accept any system set up by the pope. Even if they agreed in all particulars.

Thanks for the correction. My wife is the one with actual theological training, I'm strictly armchair myself. I was given unto the belief that the Eternal Security doctrine was a derivative of Calvanistic pre-destination.

Also, I stupidly biased my statement with my interpretation of religious history (post-awakening) in Shadowrun. I apologize.

ggodo

Jul 12 2012, 11:08 PM

QUOTE (Krishach @ Jul 12 2012, 12:29 PM)

A reminder: your Comm OS must meet or exceed your program or the programs function at the lesser rating, with the options you chose. It is not explicitly stated, but some GMs include firewall in this. As your GM if you need a rating 6 or just 4. I am not familiar with the comm listing you used (4,6,0,4), which I thought is usually Signal, Response, Firewall, System, but clearly that isn't the case. Anyway, if your GM requires System of 6 to get a Firewall of 6, then you also need a Response of 6.

Shadowing dice pool is still off.

Mentor Spirit and Invisible Way bonuses and discounts still not labeled.

I also notice you have a Focus Formulae, but no skill for Enchanting. I assume you will pick up the skill later? Because you cannot default on Enchanting; you must have the skill to use it.

With regard to the Comm, I'm planning on upgrading to a new comm and picking up enchanting in-game. I can transfer programs afterward, right? I've never seen anything forbidding that, and quite frankly my group is extremely selective in its use of Unwired, so I'm a bit unfamiliar with it. I made this character in Chummer, and just copied the pure text character sheet. I didn't crawl through to see if everything was labeled correctly. But now I will.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Jul 13 2012, 01:11 AM

Firewall is not restricted by System/Response. You do not need to worry about that. It is a Matrix Attribute.

Krishach

Jul 13 2012, 03:12 AM

You CAN'T transfer programs from one comm to another without a System, and you CAN'T even have the programs loaded without a System. If you are upgrading, why have the comm in the first place? You can't use programs, access the matrix, or receive calls (like, say, from a Fixer) without a System. Without a System, it's a paper-weight. Not sure why this is a hang-up.

ggodo

Jul 13 2012, 05:14 AM

Oh, so, the version with the system didn't save, and I hadn't caught it til now.

Falconer

Jul 13 2012, 06:40 AM

Actually all those armor modification rules are optional in arsenal. If they're not being used... then the mods are fine with the exception of the chem seal.

Chem seals require full body suits complete with helmets. I don't see it as an option with chameleon suit. For the most part, the full body suits which allow chem seals will say so. (like full body armor, or military armor explicitly mention they can have them built in).

So replace the seal with a resistance mod... though you may want a reason for doing so. I normally like to put a few points of chem protection on my outer most armor or non-armor raincoat/duster just because of the in setting acid rain problem.

Krishach

Jul 13 2012, 11:20 AM

I do because our GM has a fondness for Narcojet, as do our players. If the Hobgoblin pulls out another splash grenade, I'm going to shoot him. Not that it would hurt him: 12 body and 14 armor...

Chem seals require Full Body Armor, as a direct quote.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Jul 13 2012, 01:38 PM

QUOTE (Krishach @ Jul 13 2012, 05:20 AM)

I do because our GM has a fondness for Narcojet, as do our players. If the Hobgoblin pulls out another splash grenade, I'm going to shoot him. Not that it would hurt him: 12 body and 14 armor...

Chem seals require Full Body Armor, as a direct quote.

Yep, and the CHAMELEON SUIT is exactly that. Full Body Armor.

QUOTE

Chameleon Suit: A full body suit made from ruthenium polymers supported by a sensor suite that scans the surroundings and replicates the images at the proper perspectives, providing the wearer with chameleon abilities. Apply a –4 dice pool modifier to Perception Tests to see the wearer. Also armored for additional protection.

QUOTE (SR4A, Chemical Seal)

Chemical Seal: Only available to full body armor, the chemical seal is an actual airtight environmental control that takes 1 Complex Action to implement. It provides complete protection against contact and inhalation vector chemicals, and has a built-in 1-hour air supply.

A Chameleon Suit is Full Body Coverage, and is Armor. So, why, exactly, can it not have Chem Seal?
Another Option would be to use the FFBA Full Body Armor with Ruthenium and Chemseal.

Dakka Dakka

Jul 13 2012, 08:52 PM

QUOTE (Krishach @ Jul 10 2012, 02:10 AM)

~ You cannot have +Fire Resistance 6, +Nonconductivity 6, +Thermal Damping 6 in a single suit of armor with an armor rating less than 12. Chameleon is limit rating 9 (total rating points). See Arsenal, armor customization.

Read the introduction to that section:

QUOTE ('Arsenal p. 44')

These rules are all optional—use them if you like, discard if you don’t. They complement the rules for armor given on pp. 148 and 315, SR4.

So unless the groups decides to use those rules you can pack as many enhancements on your underwear as you like.

Krishach

Jul 15 2012, 12:37 AM

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 13 2012, 01:38 PM)

Yep, and the CHAMELEON SUIT is exactly that. Full Body Armor.

actually, a chameleon suit is not Full Body Armor. And full body coverage is not what is says.

QUOTE (SR4a pg 326)

Full Body Armor: Worn by military and security personnel around the world, full body armor is often styled for intimidation as much as ease of movement. It features a padded undersuit, over which patches of liquid armor gel and extensive armor plates are attached. Though surprisingly lightweight, full body armor is certain to draw attention. In addition to an array of useful tactical gear and webbing, full body armor can be outfitted with environmental adaptation (for hot or cold environments) and/or a chemical seal to completely protect the wearer from toxic environments or attacks. Full body armor is electronically integrated with a wireless link, and can be enhanced with additional features such as vision enhancements, tracking/RFID signals, smartlink, and more. The armor suit’s helmet incorporates a wireless link and can be equipped with any of the vision enhancements noted on p. 333.

That is very specific.

QUOTE (SR4a pg 327)

Chemical Seal: Only available to full body armor, the chemical seal is an actual airtight environmental control that takes 1 Complex
Action to implement. It provides complete protection against contact and inhalation vector chemicals, and has a built-in 1-hour air supply.

Full Body Armor with ruthenium coating and chemical seal would work perfectly, except ruthenium is not available in base book only. It would also encumber this character to a great degree, or any character with a Body of less than 6.

However, Chemical Protection and a gask mask should be helpful, and is doable with that armor.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Jul 15 2012, 03:09 AM

QUOTE (Krishach @ Jul 14 2012, 05:37 PM)

actually, a chameleon suit is not Full Body Armor. And full body coverage is not what is says.

That is very specific.

Full Body Armor with ruthenium coating and chemical seal would work perfectly, except ruthenium is not available in base book only. It would also encumber this character to a great degree, or any character with a Body of less than 6.

However, Chemical Protection and a gask mask should be helpful, and is doable with that armor.

You should read the Chameleon Suit Entry Again... It is a Full Body Armor with complete Coverage. It is just not Military or Security Armor.

Krishach

Jul 15 2012, 09:45 PM

/sigh. No, actually, it does not. That's sorta my point.

QUOTE (SR4a pg 326)

Chameleon Suit: A full body suit made from ruthenium polymers supported by a sensor suite that scans the surroundings and rep-
licates the images at the proper perspectives, providing the wearer with chameleon abilities. Apply a –4 dice pool modifier to Perception Tests to see the wearer. Also armored for additional protection.

"full body armor" does not appear.
"full body coverage" does not appear.
Chemseal never mentions coverage once. It is for "full body armor."
a full body suit does NOT guarantee these things, nor would it qualify for a chemseal. A full body suit is not the same.
The wording is clear.

Please read my previous post for Full Body Armor, where chemical seal is specifically mentioned as an option.

Can we get back on topic now? I see nothing further in armor that would improve this character concept.

Krishach

Jul 15 2012, 09:48 PM

@ggodo

you may want to consider upping your hardware at the expense of lockpicking. It's mentioned that maglocks and keypads are far more common, and your dicepool for Hardware is less than your lockpicking. You could also grab a specialization in Maglocks for a quick boost, since I imagine, with this concept, it would be your primary use for it.

btw what book is Unseen Hands in?

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Jul 16 2012, 01:18 PM

QUOTE (Krishach @ Jul 15 2012, 03:45 PM)

/sigh. No, actually, it does not. That's sorta my point.

"full body armor" does not appear.
"full body coverage" does not appear.
Chemseal never mentions coverage once. It is for "full body armor."
a full body suit does NOT guarantee these things, nor would it qualify for a chemseal. A full body suit is not the same.
The wording is clear.

Please read my previous post for Full Body Armor, where chemical seal is specifically mentioned as an option.

Can we get back on topic now? I see nothing further in armor that would improve this character concept.

Maybe in your world FULL BODY does not mean Full Body. It does in Mine.
Maybe in your World, ARMOR does not mean armor. It does in Mine.

Since a FULL BODY suit that is ARMOR IS Full Body Armor, Chem Seal applies.
Do what you want... *Shrug*

Krishach

Jul 16 2012, 07:35 PM

RAW rules say otherwise. Wording is everything when rules are read. If you use logic or interpret the results, they are by definition no longer RAW. Sometimes, a rule doesn't mention anything specific, requiring an interpretation. As this does, I'll remind you that, as a RAW rule, it stands as written.

I'm tired of the topic derailment. If you want to discuss this further, lets do so by either PM or another thread.

ggodo, has your GM given a ruling on this?

Grinder

Jul 17 2012, 02:30 PM

Ok, TJ and Krishach disagree on one point, we got it. Now get back to the original topic.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Jul 17 2012, 02:46 PM

QUOTE (Grinder @ Jul 17 2012, 07:30 AM)

Ok, TJ and Krishach disagree on one point, we got it. Now get back to the original topic.

Was resolved Yesterday (by PM) Grinder. We DID agree to Disagree...
No worries.

ggodo

Jul 17 2012, 03:00 PM

Yeah, chem seal's out unless I get a helmet. I relaly need to read all the armor rules again. It's been too long.

Grinder

Jul 17 2012, 03:15 PM

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 17 2012, 04:46 PM)

We DID agree to Disagree...