You cannot Silence AND Gas-Vent Compensate a weapon simultaneously. They are mutually exclusive actions (even if they are on the same weapon). Says so right in the book. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Edit: Never Mind. Short Burst, not Long Burst. My Mistake... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

...Unless it's a Smartgun X, which somehow is able to use both systems at once.

They actually cannot. Both Modifications can be on the same weapon, but cannot both work simultaneously.

It's not fully compensated on short bursts TJ. He has 2 points of excess incompatible RC in there he can't use that I can see. Maybe more. He's fully compensated on a single short burst. The accessory foregrip only helps with full bursts, not long bursts. Not only that the gun may be overmodified (folding stock removal does not give 1point back to put in a new powered folding stock).

He needs 5 points RC to fully compensate 2 short bursts per pass. Exactly the same as if he fires a long burst.


Example: of a cheap gun I like... Under $1200 without smartlink. You can go either internal smartlink +500 or external +400 external you can strip off and reuse when you ditch the gun :). Melee hardening is an extra +300.
AK-97 (500) (sling +10, personalized grip +100, bayonet mount +20, foregrip +50)
Accessories: shock pad +50, gas-vent 3 +400, bayonet +40 (reach 2, +1P when on rifle, uses blades skill instead of clubs skill).

2points foregrip + sling, 1point shockpad/stock, 3 points gas-vent. 1point personalized grip (and +1 dice in melee!).

7points RC total. 8 RC with a heavy barrel for full auto... kinda silly.

I was assuming a Single Short Burst (Not sure why, but there you go), but good catch. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Au contraire, good sir, you need to read up on the rules for closing gasvents.
Edit: There is a houserule in place here that lets ACCESSORY gasvents close like MODIFICATION gasvents.

Half the point of the additional RC is to short burst at no penalty when not in FA mode, while still silenced. When shit gets real, you can swap over to longbursts when stealth isn't important anymore. The turning point here is that the Auto-Adjusting Weight, while awesome, doesn't apply all the time. Namely, if you aren't in FA mode, you lose 2rc.
Edit: You're also forgetting that an auto-weight provides +1 rc for the second burst. Yes, really. Its 1 for the first, 2 for the second, which means you don't have to have an extra RC tucked away to deal with the 'first bullet no recoil' thing.



Not quite. The incompatability clause is only for modifications....


Which is why THIS thing exists. The smartgun was statted before arsenal rules came to be. And also why my table has an houserule that accessory gasvents can be closed like modification vents, because otherwise accessories are better in every way.



You're forgetting that Slings and Foregrips combo for 2rc. I may also have been including one for strength 6.

Slight aside, but one thing that's bugged me for a long time is the Revolver Silencer mod. It takes up a ton of slots, with the fluff reasoning that in order to properly silence a revolver you need to install special high tech gaskets.

You don't, actually. In fact, the precedent for supressable revolvers was set in 1895. The Nagant M1895 was a "gas-seal" revolver, in which cocking the hammer first rotated the cylinder, then pushed it forward, physically sealing the gap between the cylinder and the barrel. Originally intended to increase the muzzle velocity, the design had the side effect of making it possible to silence the weapon. You'd think nearly two centuries later, people would have reused and improved upon the design, no?

Just another casualty of the rules trying to follow "reality", but failing to match what is actually real. I certainly can't think of any other reason why it'd take 4 slots to silence a revolver, rather than the 1 slot to internally silence literally any other non-burst-capable firearm. It sure as heck isn't to balance them mechanically. After all, the available revolvers are almost universally inferior to comparable semi-automatics. They hold less ammo and take longer to reload, without gaining any other form of bonus to compensate. The sole exception is the Ruger Superwarhawk with its increased DV and AP.

~Umi

Addendum: Oh, and while I'm at it, SR really needs silent ammunition. Not just subsonic, silent. The Russians invented it as early as the 60s, with refinement in the 70s. The only sound a weapon loaded with it will produce is the sound of the hammer and other moving parts. The way it works is that the case is specially built with a sealed internal piston. The bullet rests on the piston, the propellant detonates and drives the piston forward, the piston is stopped by the sealing design of the casing, the bullet is carried forward off of the piston and down the barrel by inertia, and the gases from the detonated propellant remain trapped and contained inside the round casing. No muzzle flash, no report.

I thought that was what subsonic ammo was?

You're digging your own grave here Udoshi, you want to keep losing credibility by making outright wrong assesrtions?

You're making things up here. You're playing fast and loose with the rules. Lets see how many *ACCESSORY ONLY* items are called by name as not stacking. Your claim is bunk on it's face. Why name accessories as not being part of these restrictions, then explicitly list them as non-stacking. And I didn't forget about the sling + foregrip. I said I see 2 and maybe more non-stacking.

Lets see...
"Recoil compensation from an auto-adjusting weight, bipod, foregrip, *GYROMOUNT*, sling, *TRIPOD*, or underbarrel weight are not cumulative with each other". (yes except foregrip + sling is allowed for 2)
"Recoil compensation from a folding stock, *HIP PAD*, *RIGID STOCK*, *SHOCK PAD*, or sling are not cumulative with each other."
Gas vents aren't cumulative.

3 of those items are only available as accessories yet named explicitly. And the rules are not supposed to apply to accessories?! You really do have no idea how to read rules. (after the power bolt doesn't use a threshold in the other thread).

Your folding stock is incompatible with the sling.

The sling can combine with the accessory version of the foregrip for 1 or 2 on a FULL BURST (not long burst).

The auto-adjusting weight is incompatible with the sling & foregrip (is worth 1, then 2 on SA/BF. It's worth 2 on FA which includes both long and full bursts).

As has already been pointed out accessory gas vents are incompatible with suppressors. Built-in suppressors can be turned off or on to allow silencing (even for the smartgun X). I didn't call you on it because it's a common house rule to extend this also to accessory vents as well.


So by that measure...
We have 1 point of RC on SA/BF from the auto-adjusting weight, 2 on the second SA/BF or if you fire FA (which includes long and full bursts) (auto-adjusting doesn't stack with the sling or foregrip)

We have 1 point of RC from either the sling or the folding stock.

You have 2 points total of RC if you fire SA/BF and use the suppressor. No more. Your second burst will gain an additional 1 point of RC for 3... but recoil is cumulative across an action phase... so the second BF is at -5recoil +3 RC == -2 penalty uncompensated. If you fire a long burst, again you're at -2 penalty while suppressed.


If you turn on the vents. You have 5RC on the first shot... or 6RC total on two shots or firing FA. That still leaves -3 penalty on a full burst. You're well compensated but not completely compensated, and you have a lot of mods which provide no benefit.


So once again you're making things up and ignoring the RC stacking rules. There is no merit whatsoever to your assertion that accessories don't count, as clearly items which are only available as accessories are listed as incompatible.

Thats a lot of words to make some personal insults, but hey, I can back this up. Italicized lines are my comments. Also, please excuse PDF-pasting: Sometimes formatting is messed up.

4a 332: Gasvents: Gas-vent recoil compensation systems vent a weapon’s barrel gases at a specific vector to counter barrel climb. Gas-vent systems can be built into machine pistols, SMGs, assault rifles, and machine guns. Installing them takes up the barrel mount and requires an Armorer + Logic (8, 1 hour) Extended Test; once installed, they cannot be removed. Weapons already equipped with a built-in gas-vent system cannot be equipped with an additional gas-vent system. The gas-vent 2 system provides 2 points of recoil compensation; the gas-vent 3 system provides 3 points of recoil compensation.
Note how core book gasvents do not have limitation text. RAW, they are superior to modifications, and DO work with silencers.

Arsenal 152, gasvent modifications: Characters can have a a firearm equipped with a sound suppressor or thermal suppressor (p. 153) and a gas-vent system at the same time; however, the gas-vent system must be turned of in order to receive the benefits from the suppressor.
Modifications have this additional line. Accessories do NOT. Don't confuse sense-making real life common sense here - you're welcome to houserule that at your table, but its not what the rules say.

Arsenal 153: An auto-adjusting weight moves a heavier weight to the end of the barrel as the weaponfires, providing 1 point of recoil
compensation for the first shot of an Action Phase, and 2 points of recoil compensation for the second shot. A weapon firing on FA mode receives 2 points of recoil compensation.
So that's 2 points on FA, +1 for the first shot and 2 for the second. Got it. The rest are easier.

Arsenal 34: foregrip: 1 RC to Fullbursts
Arsenal 153: The sling provides one point of recoil compensation.
Arsenal 151: The folding stock provides 1 point of recoilcompensation when braced against the shoulder

Ars 148: Restrictions to Recoil Compensation:
Recoil compensation from an auto-adjusting weight, bipod, foregrip, gyromount, sling, tripod, or underbarrel weight are not cumulative with each other except that the compensation from a foregrip and sling can be combined into an overall recoil compensation of 2
Recoil compensation from a folding stock, hip pad, rigid stock, shock pad, or sling are not cumulative with each other
Recoil compensation from a gas-vent system is not cumulative with that from any other gas-vent system
heavy barrels, personalized grips, and electronic firing aren't pasted because they're not being used
Arsenal 163: Recoil and Strength: In addition to modifications to the weapons and various accessories, characters can reduce a weapon’s recoil penalty simply by having extraordinary Strength. A character with Strength of 6–9 has 1 point of recoil compensation, Strength 10–13 has 2 points, Strength 14–17 has 3 points, and Strength 18+ has 4 points
Note this is an optional rule, but I already said I'm including one from strength earlier, so I'm including it again.

Now that that's laid out, lets count up the RC. You're getting confused because this gun's RC changes a lot based on its settings at the moment. But first, a refresher on shooting:

4a 153: Burst Fire Mode: Simple Action, two bursts per phase, -2 for the first, -3 for the second.
4a 154: Full Auto Mode: Characters can use a weapon in full-auto mode to fire bursts, as noted above(on 153, which is directly above, each taking a Simple Action. Full-auto weapons can also be used to fire long bursts with a Simple Action or full bursts with a Complex Action.
This means you can fire short bursts on FA Mode, which is going to be pretty handy later
As a final clarification, houserules at my table make Accessory Gasvents open, close, and stack with suppressors like modifications do. Its not RAW, but it does make more sense


Okay so:
BF MODE (Burst 1: -2. Burst 2: -3)
Autoweight: +1/+2(second shot)
Strength 6: +1
Sling 0: (Stacking: Autoweight is better)
Gasvent 0(assumed silenced)
Folding stock 1 (stacks with weight, but not sling)
= 3 RC for the first shot, 4 for the second. No recoil!
OR
Sling+Foregrip combo to 2 + strength=3 rc! No Recoil! (ignore weight+stock)
OR
Gasvent 3 = 3 rc! No Recoil!

FA Mode: Short Burst (Burst 1: -2. Burst 2: -3)
Autoweight: +2 for being on FA, +1/+2(second shot)
Strength 6: +1
Folding stock 1:
Sling: +0 (Stacking: Autoweight is better)
Gasvent: +0(assumed silenced)
= 5 RC first shot, 6 RC second shot: No recoil!

FA Mode: Long Burst (burst 1: -5. Burst 2: -6)
Assume that Chameleon Coating is temporarily replaced by High Velocity so that two Long Bursts are possible in one turn. Both are two slots.
Autoweight: +2 for being on FA, +1/+2(second shot)
Strength 6: +1
Folding stock: +1
sling: +0 (stacking!)
foregrip: 0 (stacking! not full burst!)
Gasvent: +3
= 8 RC first shot, 9 RC second! No Recoil!

FA Mode: Full Burst: -9
Autoweight: +2 for being on FA, +1 first shot
Strength 6: +1
Folding stock: +1
Sling: +0 (stacking!)
foregrip: (stacking!)
gasvent: +3
= 8RC! -1 recoil penalty!

And that is why this is a good gun.

Falconer! Don't let yourself get angry over red herrings! : The sling isn't there for RC, its for its Readied and Concealed clause. The foregrip is there for shits and giggles when the stock is folded.

Two sidenotes. One, accessory foregrips are identical to heavy barrels. A case can be made to make them actually identical for RC purposes - I've seen it used, but my table doesn't use that houserule. There's also some room for discussion on whether the RC List means Accessory Foregrips, Modification Foregrips, or Both - because they actually do different things. Depending on what your GM thinks, your 'fake heavy barrel' might give you that last RC you need for fullbursting. Its cheesy to use an accessory foregrip and a sling for 2rc, but the gun doesn't actaully need to make use of it.
Second, If your game isn't using the Strength for RC optional rule, you can completely substitute that with a Personalized Grip or an Electronic Firing. If it IS....a personalized grip lets you fullburst at no penalty.

Ah, Udoshi. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) These posts always devolve into, 'look how messed up the rules are!' I appreciate that function, but it's also sad it has to be expressed as 'the broken rules don't say I can't do this…'.

If you paid attention, you'll notice I'm using the 'common sense gasvent fix' included in my calculations.

But I'm also pointing it out anyway, because its a habit to show my work, and then go into how its been changed for the better.

Does that help?

Ok, now i understand the issue - Udoshi, you got the recoil rules wrong ^^




Burst 1: -2. Burst 2: -5

Burst 1: -2. Burst 2: -5

Burst 1: -5. Burst 2: -11

That's actually why I commented this time, Udoshi. It struck me as so strange that you used a 'common sense fix' when it *helps*, but went ahead and used an 'insane broken error' when *it* helped: *and* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
That's all I'm getting at: this isn't optimization, it's loophole-and-error identification. Which, again, is totally fine, especially in a thread specifically asking for that kind of thing. I just think it's funny.

That makes WAY more sense.

Checking the FAQ, I'm noticing that a double-short is going to be a -5, which is covered.

I'm noticing the additional clause is only for burst fire mode, though.
Which means a Short(-2) followed by a long(-6 and the previous -2) is also fully compensated.

Just get the Cavalier Sheriff from Gun H(e)aven 2. Single shot heavy pistol, 8P AP -4, 5(cy) ammo.

You might want to re-read Recoil again.

For example. Short is -2, -3 - FOR A TOTAL OF -5, just like a Single LONG Burst.

YOU SUFFER 1 POINT OF RECOIL FOR EACH ROUND PAST THE FIRST. For 2 Short Bursts, you fire 6 Rounds. The First 3 round Short Burst only offers a -2 (becasue the First round is free of Recoil), the2nd burst (rounds 4, 5 and 6 add an additional 3 Recoil (for a total of -5 in the pass). See, 6 rounds, and -5 Recoil.

They all work that way.

Don't have that book yet. *shrug*
And I still prefer my 8 Round Cylinder over a 5 Round Cylinder (or 7 with the Modification)... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Jesus. No pistol has any right being 8P.

*shrug* Why Not?
There are certainly examples of such weapons today, though they are surely very uncomfortable to use. I personally know of a few, though they are Custom Guns. I certainly would not want to shoot one for any length of time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Because there are 'sniper rifles' weaker than that. I dunno what you're talking about in 'real life' though; I've never seen a gun in reality with a SR4 damage code. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

You mistake something... I only take people to task when they get the rules GROSSLY wrong repeatedly (as you did with direct spells vs OR, then immediately followed by this). And won't bother reading the rules or making patently stupid assertions (such as accesseries don't apply to RC reductions when they're clearly named as being affected).

Rather than going back and rereading the rules in question to prove me wrong. You instead double down and reassert it without making sure you're even right.


I tallied your RC... you only have 6 points maximum ever. (not including strength). I broke down my math to make it easy to follow as well. Listing each of the recoil stacking sections independently. If you're firing suppressed you only have 2points 3 max on the second shot.


You can't fire 12 rounds in a pass because the rules limit you to 1 long burst per action phase. (even if you have two SMG's one in each hand... the rules limit you to a single long burst per phase). The only exception to this is is hyper-velocity weapons, which are allowed to fire 2 long bursts in a pass but banned from firing 3rd bursts. (which is funny because over half the guns with hyper built in also have BF listed as a valid firing mode. BF only ever refers to 3rd bursts!). It takes a free action btw to switch firing modes... so to fire a 3rd burst and a 6rd burst in the same action phase from the same gun you need to use your free action to switch the firing mode.

Another case is you ignored the text stating that sling is not cumulative with EITHER the stock OR the auto-adjusting weight. Given that a sling ONLY costs $10 and takes *NO* modification slots as a modification... this is reasonable that if you have either the sling doesn't stack with anything. It doesn't eat up an accessory slot and it doesn't eat up a modification slot. If you're already getting 2 points RC from a modification foregrip + sling... the 1 point of RC you're getting from the sling doesn't stack with the 1point of RC more you get from a folding stock.

You misapply the auto-adjusting weight willingly. It gives 1RC on the first SA/BF, then an additional +1 for a total of 2 on the second. It does not give +1 then +2 for +3 total.

You cannot fire BF on FA... BF is a distinct 3rd firing mode... though firing FA you can fire either 6rd (long) or 10rd (full) bursts.

Recoil is always cumulative across an IP. It's in the rules. It's always been this way going back to prior editions of Shadowrun as well. In fact in prior editions firing FA or BF every rounnd fired including the first needed recoil compensation to avoid penalties. (so you'd need -3, -6 in SR3, or firing FA -1 per bullet fired). Lets say you have 3 points RC... first burst is at -2+3RC==0 penalty. Second shot is at -5+3RC==-2 penalty. (this is exactly what you have without a gas vent when firing suppressed).

If anything in SR4 RC is too easy to come by and there aren't enough penalties to offset burst fire making automatics the one skill to rule them all.

You're hilarious. You pointed out everything I already did. And yet you're still wrong in some cases.

1) I already pointed out the hypervelocity thing before hand. You called me on something I already pointed out! good job!
2) I did, in fact, point out that the sling doesn't contribute to RC. Did you you miss the +0's, or the part where I said its there for the readied while concealed bonus? Here.


Wait? What's that? I'm pretty sure 0 is not 1 or 2! Don't put words in my mouth, man. That's just rude!

3) You can fire bursts on FA Mode. The rules specifically it can shoot short bursts, and to look at the previous section.... which is titled Burst Fire. Read your book.
4) An autoweight isn't misapplied. It contributes 2 RC on FA, as well as +1 for the first shot and +2 for the second. There is a reason its worth 4 slots. It also does stack with the stock. You know, in case you missed the part where I pointed that out.

The one thing I messed up was cumulative recoil, which other people called me out on already.
.... and doesn't matter anyway because there's enough of it.


Clearly. You're admitting you wont read the rules, when i gave you page numbers and relevant quotes. Stop being lazy, and look stuff up if you want to maintain any sort of credibility.

You're intentionally misapplying the auto-adjusting weight in a way the text clearly does not allow.
"An auto-adjusting weight moves a heavy weight to the end of the barrel as the weapon fires, providing 1 point of RC for the first shot of an action phase and 2 points of recoil compensation for the second shot. A weapon firing on FA mode recieves 2 points of recoil compensation."

It doesn't say 2 additional points. It only says 2 RC. That means 1RC on the first SA/BF shot, then 2 *TOTAL* RC on the second. If you fire FA right away you get the 2RC right up front, not in addition to all the rest. And yes the auto-adjusting is a big waste of space I feel... but at the same time it's the only item on that big list of incompatible RC sources which gives 2 points and still stacks with a stock. The only other single source of RC as large or larger are the gas vents.

You already showed above you don't know that recoil is cumulative across a phase. And that it's countered by a fixed RC value. RC is not cumulative... recoil is. RC is you have X amount to start and the cumulative recoil uses it up.


Thanks for pointing out that bit under FA... we'd missed that many times and just would switch the weapons between BF and FA to get 3rd and 6rd bursts. I'll have to start using that. The limitation for high-velocity (it's stuck in my head as hyper for some reason), now makes sense. A gun set to FA can't fire 3rd bursts if it's HV. If it has a BF mode it has a hardware limited 3rd burst and can still fire them.



Again you only have 6 points total RC not including strength. 2 from the auto adjusting weight. 1 from the stock, 3 from the gas vent. You don't get an extra 3 from the weight. Nowhere in the adjusting weight does it say all those values are cumulative!! It only says it's worth this on the first shot, this on the second... and if you fire full auto it's worth this much outright.

While it is not RAW there should not be a Gas Vent accessory if you use the rules from Arsenal. The Gas Vent from the BBB does not follow the definition of accessory from Arsenal.




They wrote that for Rigger Adaptation and Weapon Mount but IMHO forgot it for the Gas Vent.