There is no problem. In our games, that tactic will likely get you killed, because not everything is susceptible to Direcet Combat Spells. See how that works? Besides, Direct Combat Spells are like a good firearm. Reliable and sturdy.

Flexible Signature helps to, because it limits the duration of the Signature. There is aslo a quality that halves it. Not hard to cast spells and leave no signature. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

EDIT: Damn, Ninjaed by Nil_FisK_Urd... By a lot of hours. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

TJ, he didn't say *only* Stunbolt. The mage can carry an Indirect, a rocket launcher, whatever, for those comparatively rare other uses. However, yes, it's like a good gun… except without the need for ammo, with infinite range, ignores Dodge and armor, totally concealable/scanner-proof, etc. It's like an amazing stupendous gun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The issue isn't 'stunbolt does everything', but mostly everything.

Look at what I said. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I did not say anything about Stunbolt specifically. I was talking about Direct Combat Spells as a category. Yes, you COULD carry rocket launchers, or an Indirect, or something else for when the Direct Spells do not work. That is the beauty of Shadowrun, there is always another path to the same result.

Direct spells have drawbacks. Mana Barriers add their dice to the defense of the spell, you MUST see your target, etc. They are not always the best option. That is why there are other options. However, having the Direct Spells take more Drain than the Indirect Spells is so counter to the paradigm of Shadowrun that it is laughable that that is a goal.

Direct spells are just like a firearm. Yes, they have no ammunition (A Street Sam runs dry how often?), and an unlimited range (when is the last time Range was an issue?), They do ignore Armor/Dodge (but that is what a Team Mage is for, COunterspelling is the equivalent), and any Astral Form, or opposition Mage, can tell that the Mage is exactly that, but they do have Drain (The street Sam is curious about this phenomenon), and I challenge you to show me a Character that NEVER TAKES DRAIN from a Direct Spell. I have seen characters with 18 Dice for Drain, actually take Drain form even middling Force Direct Spells. It happens. About as often as a Street Sam actually has a gun jam, or runs out of ammunition. So, what is the problem here?

Fine, then I'm saying he didn't say 'Directs only'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) That is not the point. If you disagreed with his premise of 'no drain all day long', you should have said so. Instead, you said: "In our games, that tactic will likely get you killed, because not everything is susceptible to Direcet Combat Spells." This doesn't make sense, because he didn't suggest a tactic (so I've assumed you meant 'using nothing but Directs'), and he didn't suggest using Directs on things for which they clearly wouldn't work. The implication of his premise is that they do work. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'm not saying 'I don't agree about the stun, and I think there are many cases when the mage will have to resort to a different spell type' isn't a bad point. I'm saying I wish you'd said it.

If you don't think ammo, range, etc. are issues, then I dunno what to tell you. I know that people sure seem to care a lot about the ammo, capacity, range, etc. of their guns. I also know that mages can hide themselves better than you suggest; it's certainly not a dismissible feature. But most importantly, yes, I know that people use other weapons when the gun isn't the right one. … So? That hardly makes the wonder-gun less wonderful.

Not everyone uses an Ares Alpha. Wonder Gun Debunked... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In our games relying upon only Direct Damage Spells will get you killed. I assume it works that way in a lot of other games, based upon the posts I have seen here on Dumpshock. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Yes, Indirect Spells DO WORK, contrary to what some have been saying here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I have said it, many, many times in the past. I got to keep saying it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

About the Guns and their stats?
When is the last time you had an encounter outside of optimal range for an SMG? When is the last time you actually RAN OUT OF AMMUNITION? Characters may care about that stuf, but it rarely matters in the long run. *shrug* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

See? "In our games relying upon only Direct Damage Spells will get you killed". Exactly. That's never been anyone's claim. That's not the issue here at all. No one said Indirects do nothing, and I'm willing to bet you can't rely on 'only' Directs+Indirects, either. So it's a good thing none one said you could.

Please read...



Really... Seems like what he was saying to me. He is making an assumption that Stunbolt will work ALWAYS. Making that assumption in our game will get him killed. Ergo, my statement. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I actually gave him the benefit of the doubt by expanding it to ALL Direct Spells. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That's not what I read. I guess you could interpret 'everyone' that way, if 'everyone' means 'vehicles and things' to you. Stunbolt (and directs) *are* nearly always the superior choice against people ('everyone'), with much less drain. That is the issue.

"Everyone" could encompass the Otomo Drone that looks human, could be the character with Arcane Arrestor, Could be the guy behind a mana barrier that the mage completely missed, etc. There could be a LOT of reasons that the target does not go down to the Direct Spell. Making an assumption that "Everyone" is susceptible will only result in tears and blood.

But why is that an Issue? Bullets are nearly always a superior choice against people than knives are. Should that be an issue? Yes, Stunbolt is awesome. So is a Viper Slivergun. *shrug*

I probably see it the way I do because I have yet to be in a game where the abuses that are so controversial on dumpshock have yet to really be a problem at our table (or any table I have played at). Mages routinely go down against the guy with the Gun. Yes, they can do a lot of harm, but you know what? They pay for that ability with Drain. In our games, Drain does have an impact (yes, even for such spells as Stunbolt). Maybe it does not in other games, I don't know. But I cannot believe that there are characters that never suffer drain. Even from Direct Spells such as Stunbolt. Especially at the Force levels that are routinely talked about.

I really do not see the issue.

When i was sniping ^^

This acually happens quite often with my characters, when i unexpectedly need to give cover (supression) fire. Unless i am in a War Zone, i rarely have more than 1 or 2 replacement magazines readily available, because you cannot hide them well on a person.

The part I left off (because I did not think I needed to mention it) is "in combat." In combat situations, Direct spells take supremacy (need I remind you a F7 Stunbolt is only 2 Drain?). What I can't Stunbolt (living creatures) I can Powerbolt (drones, weapons, ect.), and I will not take Drain for doing so (rocking augmented max for drain stats - easy to do). Mana barriers will rarely matter, if at all, because an extra 4-6 dice on top of their Will of 3-5 won't beat my Successes. Heck, I don't even need all my tricks to make sure I will cast every time how I need it for Direct spells.

Out of combat there are things like Negotiations, Con, and other spells to deal with things. Heck, with the proper gear you don't even need most of the Breaking skills from B&E.

Direct and indirect combat spells aren't (shouldn't be) guns versus knives. They should be pistols versus shotguns (possibly guns vs. rockets, but that's another whole thing). People *do* lament that shotguns aren't good enough compared to, say, SMGs (it depends). This is because we like for various roughly equivalent options to be viable options. (Hell, people lament that *melee* isn't as good as firearms!) The whole Direct/Indirect issue is dissatisfaction with how small the Indirect niche is, so people propose house rules to *change* the game to make them more competitive. That's not a hard concept.

Magic is arbitrary, so there is one perspective that says we can and should make the spells more equal. There's nothing wrong with your perspective (and apparently that of the game designers), that says Indirects are big and flashy and highly dispreferred except for a certain small niche. That's fine… if that's what you want.

Basically my problem with the constant "how about this way to change Direct/Indirect" stuff, is that I personally feel that if someone doesn't like the game to the point where they feel they 'have' to change it, why the drek are they bothering to play it?

That's just stupid. Every one of us changes every game to suit us better. Even if there were any merit in that point, this is a tiny change out of a whole big game.

Indeed - throwing the BBB out with the bathwater.

This one time, I had an Ares Desert Strike and the target was 1700m away. I was all like, "Damn! I should have gotten that extra barrel extension mod so my extreme range was 1800 instead of 1650."

I have been playing shadowrun since 1986. I have never seen a case where ammo/range were an issue for a street Sam.

People sure seem to care about clip size and ammo price/avail. They must all be dumb. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Does a sam have distinct needs, because presumably we're talking about all characters. I bet if you offered them a gun that fired stunbolts (and therefore an invisible, weightless, etc. gun), they'd say yes.

Actually most would say no, once you mention the drain. In all honesty S&S ammo is so vastly superior to stunbolt it's laughable.

I have read through most of this thread (and the other one as well) and I agree with TJ here. I really don't see what the issue is. Direct and indirect combat spells are two different things, therefore they have two different drains. Yes the stunbolt/ball can drop a lot of people with very little drain. BUT, if the duck behind cover, or go invisible, or do anything else to remove themselves from your LoS, then that stun/power bolt/ball is useless against them. However, that fireball is not. Yes it has more drain, but it does more. It hits targets that you cannot see, and it produces a fire effect that does residual damage (both to people and things). Therefore is warrants a higher drain than the stun/power bolt/ball.

Not really an encounter then is it? And you had the weapon you needed, right?



If you have what you need, then range is never an issue. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
An d yes, I have found that 2 spare magazines is often MORE than enough. If it isn't, I take them from my opposition. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You were under the impression I was talking about plinking Rats in the backyard? Interesting... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I have seen 18 Dice result in No Successes (and it is NOT easy to do, Costs a fair amount of Money and Karma to bond those Foci, or you are using Spirits to do so, or you are taking a penalty). And as for the Powertbolt against a Drone, even you admitted when pressed that 40% of the time it was unsuccessful, you just did not care. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

However, I am glad to hear that a Mage has an option akin to the Street Sam. A Reliable, offensive weapon that causes little hardship. That is what Direct Spells are meant to provide, and they do a great job of it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And yes, out of combat there are always options. As there should be. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It is what I want... I do not want DnD, which is where the change takes you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Fortunately, that is the direction the Developers went with it as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Indeed... Rare Occasion, I would imagine, though, yes?
Besides, all you had to do was move 51 meters and he would be in range. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)