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> Do SR characters PAY for things?, Why do these criminal mastermind groups use money?
DireRadiant
post Aug 29 2012, 10:43 PM
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QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Aug 29 2012, 03:50 PM) *
© Drop the personal attacks.

I told you once - stop the personal attacks. This is the second time I'm compelled to type this (even if it's the same post in the end). There won't be a third - I'll just go back and report each bloodypost to the moderators and be done with it.


Term of Service includes both Personal Attacks, and doing the jobs of the Mods as things that you shalt not do.

Just report using the report button please.

And to continue, the Mods review the entire thread and relevant posts before determining who gets Warnings. So it is quite possible for anyone doing Bad Things regardless of whether or not it is Reported to get a Warning.

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Hida Tsuzua
post Aug 29 2012, 10:51 PM
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Really this is just a reskin of the good old "why not just steal cars?" argument. For their skill level and capital investment, shadowrunners sell themselves short. They really could be making much better money* for equal or less risk than shadowrunning. Generally you can come up with reasons why shadowrunners don't do them, but that causes oddness such as white collar fraud or carkacking apparently being way more dangerous than breaking into highly secure facilities. This and other reasons is why I don't like "I'm just in it for the cash" motivations for shadowrunners.

*- In my experience payment is between 5000-15000Y per team member for a run. If you're way above this, this problem goes away, but it really needs to be in the 50000+Y to get out of this problem. A lot of GMs won't pay that much for a variety of reasons anyways.
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LurkerOutThere
post Aug 29 2012, 10:55 PM
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QUOTE (almost normal @ Aug 29 2012, 10:38 AM) *
There's always evidence. It's whether or not the cost of a technomancer's resonance search plus the cost of the hit squad will equal the amount of money the company expects to lose again.


There's a fair bit of stuff i absolutely abhor about the recent fluff. Trivilializing resonance realm data recovery is one of them, other then that carry on.
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Yerameyahu
post Aug 29 2012, 11:11 PM
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Yeah, Hida Tsuzua. This is also partially based on a 'the rules allow X' argument, though. Like I said, if the crunch fails to describe how we know the world works, that just means the crunch is wrong, though.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 30 2012, 12:32 AM
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QUOTE (Fatum @ Aug 29 2012, 02:21 PM) *
Mathematically speaking, glitching on a pool of six dice is rather improbable, glitching on a pool of eight or more is all but impossible in its unlikeness.

Oh, and sure if you get non-subtle about it, you're getting caught. That's why I think it's better to represent the benefits available to an enterprising runner with Hacking the Lifestyle, instead of devoting separate runs to it.


I Have seen Glitches on 12 Dice, 14 Dice, 15 Dice, and even a Critical Glitch on 18 Dice. They do happen, even if they are rare. They are NOT all but Impossible, especially in our group. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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_Pax._
post Aug 30 2012, 01:51 AM
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QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Aug 29 2012, 05:43 PM) *
Term of Service includes both Personal Attacks, and doing the jobs of the Mods as things that you shalt not do.

To be clear, I wasn't trying to do anyone's job, just say "stop doing ____ to me".
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CanRay
post Aug 30 2012, 02:56 AM
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Going through the Black Market ensures that you're going to at least get some quality for what you're paying for. Stealing something... Who knows what kind of condition it's in before you take it?

That said, I doubt many 'Runners buy Ford Americars. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Starmage21
post Aug 30 2012, 03:12 AM
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Oddly enough, I have ZERO issues with what the OP argues. It is EXACTLY the kind of awesome player-driven content that is worthy of the gametable, and enough planning has gone into it to suggest that it is indeed a worthy run.

The best runner teams dont always get their jobs from Mister Johnson, sometimes they just think of their own ways to stick it to the man.
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KnightAries
post Aug 30 2012, 03:55 AM
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QUOTE (Starmage21 @ Aug 29 2012, 08:12 PM) *
Oddly enough, I have ZERO issues with what the OP argues. It is EXACTLY the kind of awesome player-driven content that is worthy of the gametable, and enough planning has gone into it to suggest that it is indeed a worthy run.

The best runner teams dont always get their jobs from Mister Johnson, sometimes they just think of their own ways to stick it to the man.


I think most teams prefer sticking it to "the corps" as the make more and are more dangerous then "the man" is now days. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Yerameyahu
post Aug 30 2012, 04:01 AM
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Are the corps not the man?
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_Pax._
post Aug 30 2012, 04:14 AM
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QUOTE (Starmage21 @ Aug 29 2012, 10:12 PM) *
Oddly enough, I have ZERO issues with what the OP argues.

I don't have a problem with the concept. I just think the plan has a few potentially-large holes in it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Fatum
post Aug 30 2012, 08:25 AM
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QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Aug 30 2012, 02:55 AM) *
There's a fair bit of stuff i absolutely abhor about the recent fluff. Trivilializing resonance realm data recovery is one of them, other then that carry on.
I couldn't agree more with this.

Also, yeah, things like what the original post offers are perfectly fine in Shadowrun. If you have a proactive group who are willing to show some initiative, and not just perform exactly what the Johnson says them, you should consider yourself lucky. In my experience, such players are pretty rare (and I am bad at that, too).
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Midas
post Aug 30 2012, 09:07 AM
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QUOTE (Hida Tsuzua @ Aug 29 2012, 11:51 PM) *
Really this is just a reskin of the good old "why not just steal cars?" argument. For their skill level and capital investment, shadowrunners sell themselves short. They really could be making much better money* for equal or less risk than shadowrunning. Generally you can come up with reasons why shadowrunners don't do them, but that causes oddness such as white collar fraud or carkacking apparently being way more dangerous than breaking into highly secure facilities. This and other reasons is why I don't like "I'm just in it for the cash" motivations for shadowrunners.

*- In my experience payment is between 5000-15000Y per team member for a run. If you're way above this, this problem goes away, but it really needs to be in the 50000+Y to get out of this problem. A lot of GMs won't pay that much for a variety of reasons anyways.

It all depends on how the GM sees things. In my gameworld, even with a high Loyalty chop-shop contact, stealing too many cars is gonna get you in trouble with the gang the chop-shop regularly uses (protection comes with the "business relationship"), organized crime (who don't want newbs muscling in on "their" territory) and so on. The odd car nobody's gonna really notice or give a shit, but turn it into a profession and you are gonna be stepping on peoples toes ... think Breaking Bad but for cars and you should get an idea how I run things.

As to the OP and his plan, the premise seems reasonable enough, but Pax is right in that things will depend on how inventory is checked before shipment. This is entirely up to the GM of course, but I imagine that goods would be checked when they are taken from the shelves, and then checked again on the loading dock (hell, this is common practice IRL these days).

The other potential stumbling block, according to my take on the RFID world, is that Stealth RFID tags might not be caught by TAG erasers unless they are active when the sweep is made. The more expensive the merchandise, the more stealth tags there are (a few with hourly sends, a few daily and a few weekly). For 100K newyen's worth of merchandise, perhaps there are not so many, for higher price tag goods there will be more; professionals with industry knowledge (the places the tags are often put etc) can probably take the goods apart and clean them up, but that is an additional cost in that they will want a decent fee for their service.

It is not a bad idea (and his low-balling the value of the haul stands to his advantage IMHO), and with a few tweaks could be made to work, who knows?
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DuckEggBlue Omeg...
post Aug 30 2012, 09:27 AM
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Yes, this is a perfectly valid, player generated run. I just don't see that it has any better risk/effort vs reward ratio than a regular run, minus the plot - especially if the intent is to steal regular gear for other runs. Specialist gear would be a different story. So yeah, it's cool if players want to do it, I'm just not sure why they would.

One thing:
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Aug 30 2012, 06:34 AM) *
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Aug 30 2012, 05:55 AM) *

Faraday cage: 100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per cubic meter. Let's assume this "back room" is, oh, 4m by 5m by 3m. Sixty cubic meters, or, 6,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

That makes no sense, since a faraday cage is just any volume which is enclosed by the wire mesh. You may be thinking of the surface area of a prism, which is 2ab + 2bc + 2ac. Let's say that a = 4, b = 5, and c =3.

You only need one hundred square meters of mesh to turn this room into a faraday cage. So only 1,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

The only way your maths works is if 1 cubic meter=10 sqaure meters somehow. Which is just... uh?
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 30 2012, 12:47 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 29 2012, 08:56 PM) *
Going through the Black Market ensures that you're going to at least get some quality for what you're paying for. Stealing something... Who knows what kind of condition it's in before you take it?

That said, I doubt many 'Runners buy Ford Americars. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


What is wrong with the Ford Americar? Solid piece of engineering and ubuquitous. Who wouldn't want one as a 'Runner? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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FuelDrop
post Aug 30 2012, 12:52 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 30 2012, 08:47 PM) *
What is wrong with the Ford Americar? Solid piece of engineering and ubuquitous. Who wouldn't want one as a 'Runner? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think he means that runners don't pay for them because they steal them.
I could be wrong, though.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 30 2012, 12:52 PM
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QUOTE (DuckEggBlue Omega @ Aug 30 2012, 03:27 AM) *
One thing:

That makes no sense, since a faraday cage is just any volume which is enclosed by the wire mesh. You may be thinking of the surface area of a prism, which is 2ab + 2bc + 2ac. Let's say that a = 4, b = 5, and c =3.

You only need one hundred square meters of mesh to turn this room into a faraday cage. So only 1,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

The only way your maths works is if 1 cubic meter=10 sqaure meters somehow. Which is just... uh?


I think what he is saying is that the whole Cube is not a Mesh. The outer walls, floors, and ceiling are composed of the Mesh, so really, you are only covering the exterior surfaces. Which is a MUCH different calculation than the entirety of the Cube itself. At least that is how I read it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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DuckEggBlue Omeg...
post Aug 30 2012, 01:23 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 30 2012, 10:22 PM) *
I think what he is saying is that the whole Cube is not a Mesh. The outer walls, floors, and ceiling are composed of the Mesh, so really, you are only covering the exterior surfaces. Which is a MUCH different calculation than the entirety of the Cube itself. At least that is how I read it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yes, the surface area would be MORE (atleast the for the example - actually 94 but he said 100>60). The only way it comes out cheaper as in his example is if you're pricing the mesh at 10 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per square meter, and given the quoted price of 100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per cubic meter, means he is, for whatever reason, assuming 1 cubic meter = 10 square meters.

So again... Huh? It's possible I'm completely spacing on the maths, but I don't think so.

Yes the quoted price should be in square meters because that's how you would use the product, but where is this arbitrary conversion rate coming from? Wouldn't it be better to assume a typo and just make it 100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per square meter? This makes the cost 9,400 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , so HIGHER. Or maybe they literally sell it in cubes, but wouldn't that make the conversion rate 1:6?

So yes, calculating it the way Pax did makes no sense in real terms (as opposed to whatever the RAW is), it should be MORE expensive.
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CanRay
post Aug 30 2012, 01:23 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 30 2012, 07:47 AM) *
What is wrong with the Ford Americar? Solid piece of engineering and ubuquitous. Who wouldn't want one as a 'Runner? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Never said there was anything wrong with one. Good American Engineering.
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Aug 30 2012, 07:52 AM) *
I think he means that runners don't pay for them because they steal them.
I could be wrong, though.
No, you're right. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 30 2012, 01:29 PM
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QUOTE (DuckEggBlue Omega @ Aug 30 2012, 07:23 AM) *
Yes, surface area would be MORE (atleast the for the example - 100>60). The only way it comes out cheaper is if you're pricing the mesh at 10 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per square meter, and given the quoted price of 100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per cubic meter, means he is, for whatever reason, assuming 1 cubic meter = 10 square meters.

So again... Huh?

Yes the quoted price should be in square meters because that's how you would use the product, but where is this arbitrary conversion rate coming from? Wouldn't it be better to assume a typo and just make it 100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per square meter? This makes the cost 10,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , so HIGHER. Or maybe they literally sell it in cubes, but wouldn't that make the conversion rate 1:6?

So yes, calculating it the way Pax did makes no sense in real terms (as opposed to whatever the RAW is), it should be MORE expensive.


Indeed... I see what you are saying. Yes, it should be 100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per Square Meter (not Cubic Meter) of coverage.
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Yerameyahu
post Aug 30 2012, 02:05 PM
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If he did what the RAW says, it's hard to fault *him* for that.
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almost normal
post Aug 30 2012, 02:42 PM
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QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Aug 29 2012, 05:55 PM) *
There's a fair bit of stuff i absolutely abhor about the recent fluff. Trivilializing resonance realm data recovery is one of them, other then that carry on.


I'm not sure saying "X service has a cost" is trivializing.
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almost normal
post Aug 30 2012, 02:47 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 30 2012, 07:47 AM) *
What is wrong with the Ford Americar? Solid piece of engineering and ubuquitous. Who wouldn't want one as a 'Runner? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Ford makes great trucks. Cars... not so much. This never changes.
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post Aug 30 2012, 03:21 PM
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QUOTE (almost normal @ Aug 30 2012, 10:47 AM) *
Ford makes great trucks. Cars... not so much. This never changes.


Freakin' Ford almost cost me a Christmas when I was young. Damn Bronco wouldn't start if it was cold. Or wet. Or anything other than a perfect sunny day in the middle of summer with a light breeze blowing from the south-east and while Mars was in retrograde.

Found on Road Dead. Fix or Repair Daily. Failed on Race Day. These acronymical jokes exist for a reason. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Fatum
post Aug 30 2012, 03:54 PM
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QUOTE (almost normal @ Aug 30 2012, 06:42 PM) *
I'm not sure saying "X service has a cost" is trivializing.
Turning something from an esoteric undertaking with unclear results into a well-defined service with a cost is trivializing.
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