banking on a cyberzombie that doesn't have very high agility and reaction and won't have a decent unarmed pool to defend with as well seems... hmmm... let's just say that's optimistic, shall we?

i don't think it's worthless... but i wouldn't recommend it specifically for taking out cyberzombies.

now, what it might be great for is taking down a magician or matrix specialist that has chosen to put everything into body and armor, but not much into reaction or agility or defensive melee skills.

Well, I DID say 'potentially'...

An optimized melee character at 19D6 attack and taking out it's agility (let's say AGI 15) could cripple a cyberzombies speed and attack test by spending a little karma for re-rolls.

Except that if you're already building an unarmed combat adept, why would you not already have a high strength? Especially considering that every other adept power for unarmed combat benefits greatly from having a high strength, and that you'll likely also want the extra Climbing and Running dice from a high strength in order to actually get into melee range half the time?


I meant "as strong as ropes" to refer to the zip ties' capacity for restraining a character. If metal handcuffs have a threshold of only 4, which is exactly the same threshold as ropes, zip ties at best share that threshold of 4 - because if they had a higher threshold than handcuffs, that would in effect be saying that a purpose-built restraining device long employed by law enforcement organizations is less effective than makeshift restraints improvised from a form of office supply originally intended for neatly bundling electrical cords and similar. Which would be absurd. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Overall, I just don't get it.

Okay, so it incapacitates without doing any damage. That's very rarely useful, if at all. I have a very hard time thinking of any situation in which it would actually make a difference. Unless you have an absurdly specific mission requirement that a target not be harmed in any way, even a scratch or a bruise or whatever, I don't see the appeal. If you're merely trying to not kill your targets, normal unarmed should be fine - even accidentally overflowing slightly into physical is going to have essentially no effect whatsoever 99.99% of the time, unless you're throwing punches so strong that you just instantly fill up and overflow both their condition moniter tracks in a single blow (in which case you have a whole other set of problems, and you also have plenty of options such as just using Shock Gloves instead). Or maybe you're trying to stun out someone who is already heavily wounded? But when the hell does that happen? If they're wounded, it's overwhelmigly likely that it's because the runners made them that way, so unless there's some severe miscommunication going on, this shouldn't be happening that often. And even with all these absurdly unlikely situations, you still have other cheaper options like drugs or spells, or even just getting them into physical overflow and using a stabilization patch on them if you're desperate.

The lack of enemy damage staging has some small merit to it, I admit. But once again, 1) there are easier and cheaper alternatives, and 2) how often is this going to actually be useful? Unarmed adepts already have Elemental Strike, which can halve or even completely bypass armor, as well as inflicting incapacitation via elemental secondary effects, and it synergizes with the normal unarmed adept builds. Drugs once again are a very viable alternative, also bypassing armor. Spells are nice too, particularly Mana Spells, which are resisted merely with Willpower. There are even tech toys like the Pain Inducer or Freeze Foam for incapacitating foes, or perhaps even hacking the enemy's weapons and 'ware if you can. Unless you're fighting milspec monstrosities or dragons, I can't believe you're ever really going to be needing Nerve Strike.

I just don't find it worth the price, and no one has given me any arguments for it's supposed value that I find compelling. I cannot justify spending an entire power point on something so incredibly situational that can so easily be duplicated by other means without great cost.

~Umi

When I make an unarmed combat adept, I always like to think about how I can narrow the niche in which I am useful even more.

Not sure whether serious or sarcastic... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

~Umi

Because I like to create character concepts.

Nerve strike is exceptionally useful for adepts that are NOT very strong but have the ability to take down targets larger than themselves.

Example: Very fast Elf but has standard STR3 and shock gloves instead of killing hands
Example: The old sensei that can hardly lift a teacup but have the ability to humiliate even the strongest student
Example: The mystic adept with touch range spells and nerve strike
Example: For the sheer FUN of it.

I DO think that the abilities like Distance Strike and Nerve Strike are overpriced though. They should slash those ability costs in half.

I agree. Flair, coolness, and just plain personal preference are all good reasons to take Nerve Strike. Just not at that cost.

~Umi

The same goes for distance strike.

Being able to punch people up to 6 meters away is not something worth 30% of your magic. Especially as it does not improve the damage in any way so you are unlikely do actually HARM the enemy unless you are a souped up troll.

0-1 meter: Close Combat
2-6 meter: Heavy Pistol Close Range [You can charge at this range instead...]

Even if we took Magic X2 it would be no more worth than 1 point due to effectiveness of other abilities.

Distance strike must usually be combined with high attributes and killing hands so it's actual INDIVIDUAL worth is not more than 0,5 points. THEN we add all the power that it can be combined with to be of any use.

The same goes for Nerve Strike as it ONLY affects living beings which means the following

Animals and People = YES
Drones= NO
Spirits=NO

30% usefulness against the more common threats. So lets cut it down to 0,5 points.

Distance Strike is really a lot more defensible, because it counts as a ranged attack for defense purposes. If you're going up against people who do have Dodge or a Melee skill, it's a pretty substantial to-hit bonus; if you are punching someone who has 4 ranks in a melee skill or in Dodge, you break even compared to Improved Ability. It's especially good against spirits (who have skill=Force and can be very hard to hit), or TWS users. Really, it's better to think of DS as the ability to bypass people's melee defense skills, and it also lets you shoot fist lasers as a side bonus.

The problem is that with its limited range you only have one chance because in the next turn they are IN melee range, and you can hardly bypass their melee skill IN melee.

Actually, you can: you can make ranged attacks from melee range, you just take +2 point blank, -3 in melee for a net -1. It's often still better.

Isn't there a martial arts style that reduces the ranged attack in melee penalty? Firefight or Krav Maga?

There are actually 2 maybe 3: Krav Maga allows it be taken once & I think Firefight is twice, & Sangre Y Acero is once for a total of -4 for 20bp or 40 Karma.

just my 2 cents: we have a player who uses nerve strike without base damage to great effect, especially against other melee'ers, and especially with Counterstrike.

The short explanation is he puts all his points on the side of hits, and can out-roll nearly every CC person he goes toe to toe with, and whittle down their stats into a snowball of fuck-you. It turns into less damage (the extra hits to damage I mean) than my own hobgoblin CC brawlers 8P base (who soaks damn well too), but the two of us squared off once, and I couldn't hit the bastard, and damage soak doesn't work vs nerve strike. My agility got lower and lower every time he landed a hit.

I agree that it's cost makes it an inferior choice solely for taking live targets, or in gun fights, compared to other options that can be bought with only money. But CC vs CC on a character built for such, I found it astonishingly effective. Side note: I also had 30 more karma that this character did too.

But the entire concept sounds retarded. You are in a melee fight and start punching the air and hits your opponent that cant defend?

Nevermind - doesn't sound retarded at all when i get that image in my head as someone seems to just send punches straight through blocks and parries.

Still, the ability is far to expensive for it's limited range as it really needs to be combined with something else like killing hands or elemental strike.

Distance Strike with elemental effect blast would be a cool visual representation of a kinetic distance strike.

Add power geas "blatant magic" to the abilities and you can scream HADOUKEN when attacking.

Well, 30 karma isn't very much unless it's spent on low level skills or two initiations.

The problem is that it is a 'fun' power but severely limited. On the other hand the ONLY defense you get is your defense roll. On the THIRD hand (if you mutated) they can take a -3D6 for close combat and shoot you in the face.

I'd be interested in seeing how a generic mage with Stunbolt handles that Nerve Stiker, rather than a melee CC specialist.

Or for maximum fun, a CC mage. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


~Umi

Hmm, could I as a mystic adept use a touch range stunbolt combined with a nerve strike attack?

That's like asking if you can deal Unarmed damage while also dealing separate electrical damage with a Shock Glove. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

~Umi

Well, you do.
Or was that a trick question.

Actually you don't. With a Shock Glove, you either deal Unarmed Combat Damage, or you deal Electrical Damage, Never Both.
Want to do both at the same time, Get an adept with Elemental Blast. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Ah, houserule from our view then.

We find it nuts that a full power strike from a troll with bonelacing doing physical damage being (slightly) softened by a layer of shock glove that zaps someone in the face as their jaw is pulverized more logical than the kinetic energy of 250+ kilograms of troll propelled muscle is somehow just ignored and you slap someone lightly on the cheek instead.

The connectors is on the knuckles, knuckles hit face, kinetic energy is transferred, jaw broken and electric shock delivered.

I could argue that I need to buy new gloves after awhile as the gloves break after a few fights.

The troll obviously uses his pinky to touch you.

well, the potential problem there is that if he was the stereotypical doomsday machine of a melee character, he could just punch you in the head instead, which will start with applying negative modifiers and eventually KO you as well. not as large of negative modifiers, granted, but if you can't hit him anyways, it's good.

nerve strike is nice for taking down people who are already injured, because it has zero chance to deal damage. you are never going to (for example) punch a guy who has 7 boxes of stun and 6 boxes of physical damage for 9P and put him straight into a coma requiring immediate medical attention to prevent death. and you're never going to be the guy who put a target who had 6 boxes of physical into the position of having 6 physical and 7 stun on him because your punch hit, but didn't quite do enough to KO (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I have the feeling that the point some people are missing here is that you don't (as in should not) get Nerve Strike *in addition* to strength, critical strike, elemental strike, etc. (which would really be a bad idea). You get it *instead*.

Just a different path to punching faces that leads to another kind of character.