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Umidori
QUOTE (Street Magic @ p. 178)
This power allows an adept to inflict a paralyzing attack, temporarily crippling an opponent, by targeting vital nerve clusters. The adept declares he is using the power and makes a normal unarmed melee attack. Instead of inflicting damage, each net hit reduces his opponent's Agility or Reaction (attacker's choice) by 1. Etc.

So the typical way this is read, and the way it's been read forever as far as I can tell, is that "Instead of inflicting damage" is assumed to be referring back to the use of the power, or the normal unarmed melee attack in the previous sentence. But linguistically speaking, it could also be referring to, and modifying, "each net hit".

In other words, it could be read "Each net hit, instead of inflicting damage, reduces his opponent's Agility or Reaction (attacker's choice) by 1." This makes sense, as net hits on a normal unarmed melee attack normally inflict damage. The implication or the new reading would be that instead of increasing the base damage value of the attack, each net hit instead reduces the opponent's Agility or Reaction.

This new reading changes Nerve Strike from an overpriced, never used, fluff-centric novelty into a legitimate and viable side-grade for unarmed adepts. Being able to inflict the intended paralysis effect, while still being able to deliver one's unmodified base unarmed combat damage, is an interestingm and in my opinion quite balanced, tactical option to possess.

Nowhere in the wording of the power does it ever state that the attack itself deals no damage. This is in direct contrast to numerous other similar rulings, such as Subduing attacks ("This subduing attack causes no damage to the defender"), the operation of the Ares S-III Super Squirt ("The attack itself causes no damage, but..."), the Disarm martial arts maneuver ("This maneuver does no damage to the opponent"), the Herding martial arts maneuver ("On a successful attack, the character deals no damage to her opponent, but..."), et cetera.

Furthermore, comparison to prior edition rules and their wordings shows that Nerve Strike has long been ambiguously worded and structured. In 3E, "Rather than inflicting damage, every 2 net successes reduce the target’s Quickness by 1." And the same structure again in 2E, "Instead of inflicting damage, however, every two net successes on the adept's Unarmed Combat Test reduce the target's Quickness rating by one."

Please spare any "that's absurd, you're just munchkinning / power-gaming / rules lawyering, etc" comments. Looking for legitimate critique on this, particularly looking for people who might have solid insights into the original intention of the author of this power, links to pertinent threads I've been unable to find via searching the forums, links to FAQs or dev commentaries or Q&A sessions, that sort of thing.

Personally I'd like to see if this pans out. Nerve Strike is a cool concept that unfortunately isn't worth using based on its current interpretation, and hasn't been for a long time. I think the implications of the new reading make it much more attractive, while still being reasonable and requiring an appropriate trade off.

~Umi
VykosDarkSoul
I would have to agree that ambiguity exists in spades with this reading. However, I kind of like your idea for this. I have been trying to justify taking this, and the only way i have been able to even somewhat see it is a pacifist. This makes it much more viable.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
While your take on it is interesting, I am not really sure about it. Not sure if I like it or not. I had a Troll Physad who had this and he was usually rendering competent opponents incapacitated with just 2-3 hits (Occasionally in one, even, when I got lucky). Of course, he could have just killed them with the same 2-3 hits.
Dreadlord
Hm, interesting idea. What are the consequences of this interpretation? Does this swing Nerve Strike into OMG territory?

I would like to see an example, directly comparing the two interpretations. I would do it myself, but I am at work.
Whitefur
We have always in 4:th used it like its written. No damage, minus to chosen stat. I was surprised it wasnt used that way by everybody:)
bannockburn
The reading is certainly not completely clear, as you pointed out.
However, I believe that nerve strike is taken precisely because you don't want to do damage, but instead paralyze your enemy.
So, IMHO, leave it as it is and ignore the damage wink.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Sep 18 2012, 10:26 AM) *
The reading is certainly not completely clear, as you pointed out.
However, I believe that nerve strike is taken precisely because you don't want to do damage, but instead paralyze your enemy.
So, IMHO, leave it as it is and ignore the damage wink.gif


Indeed... If you want to do damage, Nerve Strike is not the ability for you. If you want to take a person down while dealing absolutely NO damage, Nerve Strike has few competitors.
UmaroVI
I think it's ambiguous enough that you could read it that way. It's still not overpowered and really still not even very good, but it's an improvement to be sure.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Sep 18 2012, 01:15 PM) *
I think it's ambiguous enough that you could read it that way. It's still not overpowered and really still not even very good, but it's an improvement to be sure.


I still do not understand why people claim that it is not any good. I have used it to great effect over the years, in multiple editions. The point of the Nerve Strike is to NOT do damage, but still remove the ability to do anything (paralyze). It works wonderfully for that purpose. *Shakes Head and gives a puzzled look*
Umidori
And in which circumstances might that be of substantial value? And how well does the potential benefit measure up against the opportunity costs?

By it's very nature, it's an incredible niche ability. It's only useful for Unarmed Combat Melee Adepts. And then it has pretty much zero synergy with the other powers that an unarmed combat adept is going to normally want. It also has reduced synergy with the typical physical attributes of an unarmed combat adept, benefiting the most from having high agility and a maximized dice pool, and not at all from strength.

It has an odd effectiveness tradeoff, faring better against "slow and tough" characters that have high armor and body to stage down damage, but faring worse against "frail but nimble" characters with high agilities and reactions. The paralysis lingers only a few minutes, whereas an unconscious character is essentially out for the rest of a mission segment, barring medical assistance or similar. Critters suffer only half its effects, and the ability is useless against spirits and drones - which also feeds negatively into its lack of synergy with normal unarmed adept builds, as in the event you have to fight such enemies you would want those powers and attributes which allow you to deal physical damage and which boost your damage value enough to overcome their high levels of armoring.

What real benefit do you get from this power? When would it ever be genuinely preferable to merely paralyze a metahuman rather than simply knock them unconscious? Maybe you need them awake to interrogate? The Awaken spell works wonders and has a phenomenally low drain, and select drugs also work.

Everything an adept can do with Nerve Strike you can do just as well and cheaper with other, more useful powers. Maybe if it cost 0.5 or 0.25 power points, instead of 1 whole point... Maybe if it had better synergy, and didn't incentivise designing your character's entire build around one single power... Maybe if it offered something unique that was actually of value, rather than something inconsequential that is ultimately just a novelty or fluff component...

It's the old adept complaint all over again. Why would I take Improved Reflexes when I could take a Synaptic Booster? Why would I take Improved Strength or Improved Agility above my natural maximum when I could take Muscle Augmentation or Muscle Toner? Why would I take the inefficient and less powerful option when I can take the one that is outright better?

~Umi
Makki
it's the Vulcan Nerve Pinch! Do we need any more reason?
You can decrease the power's price by giving it a Geas "attack to a presue point at the neck"


my biggest issue is the few minutes thing. I can't even complete a run, before the guard awakens. If I put him to sleep with a tranq patch, I could have done this in the first place and an easier touch-attack.
Xenefungus
I don't think Nerve Strike is underpowered at all. And I say that as someone who cares a lot about the stats of a character.
But it is indeed a power to build around and does not synergize with the other unarmed combat powers (except improved ability).

This is why my Nerve Strike character only has a Strength of 1 and no damage boosting powers at all (which saves quite a few points). If you go for nerve strike, you want to use it exclusively. As already mentioned, a big dice pool is really important. This is why Agility 12 (surged elf + muscle toner) and Skill 10 (+2 Nerve Strike) come in handy. With a DP of 24, you can reasonably expect 8 hits on an attack. This is usually enough to take out "mooks" (who might get 3 hits on their defense and only have an attribute of 5 that you need to reduce to zero). For stronger enemies, you do indeed need two hits usually which is why Finishing Strike is worth gold there - attack once do reduce Reaction, attack again against their now already lower defense. This is usually enough ro reduce even a boosted attribute of 9 down to 0.

The major selling point here is that body and armor does not work against nerve strike at all.

What has been said about drones is true, a nerve strike fighter is not viable against those. But then, he doesn't need to. Animals are harder then metahumans but doable, since their defense pools are usually not really high and their (often high) body and natural armor values don't apply.


Of course one needs to compare this to a standard damage build. With a base strength of 7 as an orc, maxed critical strike and martial arts you are usually looking at around 13 base DV, which is a lot. Considering that the same dicepool can be acquired as before, this will usually be enough to instantly incapacitate mooks with one hit. Against tougher opponents, they will have body + impact armor of around 18 dice which negates 6 damage on average. With a condition monitor that is usually larger than their attributes, it is quite likely that they might indeed stand such a blow. What helps is that your team mates are able to deliver the same kind of damage through various means which is a huge advantage. But then again, you spent a lot more ressources to get there (upping strength alone is near 100 Karma). You are also more efficient against drones and vehicles by doing this though. And as soon as we get into "Elemental Strike (Sound)"-territory to negate all armor, things are looking all different again.



Summing up, i guess it's safe to assume that both ways are different but totally viable in their own ways.
Aerospider
I don't see the wording as ambiguous in this instance. Net hits don't 'inflict damage' they raise the base DV before it gets reduced by the soak roll. It is the attack as a whole that inflicts damage, ergo no damage is inflicted. Could have been worded better, but it's clear enough for me.

I also don't have qualms with it. Sometimes it's important not to cause visible injury. Sometimes it's important not to cause heavy or chronic damage. Sometimes it's easier to reduce a stat to 0 than to fill the stun track.

It is indeed very niche, as are most adept powers. It is because of this that the best reason to play an adept is to do niche things, as opposed to achieving a cheaper and/or cooler street samurai.
The Jopp
Do Nerve Strike count as a full melee attack or is it a "touch attack"? Gaining +2D6 for the attack?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Sep 20 2012, 03:04 AM) *
Do Nerve Strike count as a full melee attack or is it a "touch attack"? Gaining +2D6 for the attack?


We have always considered it a Full Atatack. smile.gif
The Jopp
Hmmm...

Nerve Strike SHOULD be able to be used with Distance Strike...

It's a non-magical attack where you strike never clusters. Distance strike would only improve range.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Sep 20 2012, 08:52 AM) *
Hmmm...

Nerve Strike SHOULD be able to be used with Distance Strike...

It's a non-magical attack where you strike never clusters. Distance strike would only improve range.


Don't see why it couldn't be used. It is not called out as incompatible. I know Elemental Strike is not usable with Distance Strike, but Killing Hands, Penetrating Strike, and Critical Strike are allowed. Don't really see why Nerve Strike would be disallowed (and it isn't, by the book). You can even use Martial Arts at range, for that matter. smile.gif
The Jopp
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 20 2012, 02:56 PM) *
Don't see why it couldn't be used. It is not called out as incompatible. I know Elemental Strike is not usable with Distance Strike, but Killing Hands, Penetrating Strike, and Critical Strike are allowed. Don't really see why Nerve Strike would be disallowed (and it isn't, by the book). You can even use Martial Arts at range, for that matter. smile.gif


Hmm...time to build The old Sensei
STR: 2
AGI: 6
Magic: 6 (4)
Restricted Gear: Muscle Toner
Muscle Toner 4 32K [0,8]
Synaptic Booster 2 160K [1,0]
Reflex Recorder (Unarmed) 10K [0,1]

Distance Strike: 2
Nerve Strike: 1
Commanding Voice: 0,25 [Sensei says JUMP...and you jump...]
Improved Ability: 0,75 Persuation (rating 3) Combined with Commanding Voice

Essence used: 1,9

Melee Skill 6 [Nerve Strike] +2

19D6 on a attack test for nerve strike

Add A ruthenium suit for stealth and he will paralyze things from left to right...but he is a piece of meatloaf that you stick band-aid on if he gets shot.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Sep 20 2012, 02:14 PM) *
Hmm...time to build The old Sensei
STR: 2
AGI: 6
Magic: 6 (4)
Restricted Gear: Muscle Toner
Muscle Toner 4 32K [0,8]
Synaptic Booster 2 160K [1,0]
Reflex Recorder (Unarmed) 10K [0,1]

Distance Strike: 2
Nerve Strike: 1
Commanding Voice: 0,25 [Sensei says JUMP...and you jump...]
Improved Ability: 0,75 Persuation (rating 3) Combined with Commanding Voice

Essence used: 1,9

Melee Skill 6 [Nerve Strike] +2

19D6 on a attack test for nerve strike

Add A ruthenium suit for stealth and he will paralyze things from left to right...but he is a piece of meatloaf that you stick band-aid on if he gets shot.


I would likely have gone a slightly different way (Less skill/attribute, so less attack dice), but it is an interesting character snippet. smile.gif
Jaid
i'm confused why a lack of synergy with other unarmed combat powers would be important. you use nerve strike when you want to disable but not kill. you use normal punches when you want to kill.

whether or not it's worth it is largely dependant on how often you want to disable people without killing.

(also, the duration really isn't a huge issue... paralyze them, then restrain them once they can't defend themselves, if you want it to last longer. zip ties are cheap and legal).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Jaid @ Sep 20 2012, 03:38 PM) *
i'm confused why a lack of synergy with other unarmed combat powers would be important. you use nerve strike when you want to disable but not kill. you use normal punches when you want to kill.

whether or not it's worth it is largely dependant on how often you want to disable people without killing.

(also, the duration really isn't a huge issue... paralyze them, then restrain them once they can't defend themselves, if you want it to last longer. zip ties are cheap and legal).


Indeed... I love me some Zip Ties... smile.gif
Umidori
QUOTE (Jaid @ Sep 20 2012, 03:38 PM) *
i'm confused why a lack of synergy with other unarmed combat powers would be important. you use nerve strike when you want to disable but not kill. you use normal punches when you want to kill.

whether or not it's worth it is largely dependant on how often you want to disable people without killing.

(also, the duration really isn't a huge issue... paralyze them, then restrain them once they can't defend themselves, if you want it to last longer. zip ties are cheap and legal).

Normal punches don't kill. They inflict stun damage. You need to use 'ware, powers, martial arts, or sap gloves to inflict physical damage.

My question remains. How is punching someone with stun damage and knocking them unconscious any different than hitting them with nerve strikes and paralyzing them? It lasts longer. And that's it.

As for your zip ties notion, have you ever actually read the Escape Artist rules? To escape from bindings, you roll Agility + Escape Artist as an extended test. You can default on this test. The threshold for Ropes and Handcuffs is 4 hits, and plastic zip ties are at best as strong as ropes, possibly even weaker. So for a mook with 4 agility, losing 1 die to defaulting, that's an average of 4 Complex Actions to escape, or 12 seconds. If the escaping character has a cutting implement, even a set of keys (which guards will surely possess), they get an extra 2 dice on their rolls, which will almost halve the time they take to escape. Unless you actively sit and babysit the restrained character, they'll almost always be able to escape very quickly indeed.

So again, what the hell is the value? Punch them in the face, stun them into unconsciousness. Or shoot them in the face with gel rounds, stun them into unconsciousness. Or Stunbolt them in the face, stun them in into unconsciousness. Or slap a tranq patch on their face, stun them into unconsciousness. Or blow up a concussion grenade in their face, stun them into unconsciousness.

...or spend 1/6 of your maximum chargen adept power points to get an ability that lets you punch someone in the face, except they're only down and out for a few minutes, rather than a few hours.

~Umi
The Jopp
QUOTE (Umidori @ Sep 21 2012, 06:18 AM) *
My question remains. How is punching someone with stun damage and knocking them unconscious any different than hitting them with nerve strikes and paralyzing them? It lasts longer. And that's it.
i


They get to defend but no resistance test. Get attribute to 0 and kill them at your leasure.

Weak characters can take down armored high body trolls that way
Jaid
with agility + escape artist, strength is not the issue. you're not snapping a rope with your arm muscles in a restrained position.

the tightness, stretchability, and other factors will come into play. i'm not convinced a zip tie is particularly like a rope in those situations.

also, there's the chance for a critical glitch (and a pretty decent chance for regular glitches) when you're rolling that often. and this assumes the mook in question has 4 dice when defaulting.

bypassing armor, ignoring resistance tests, not having a chance to overflow the stun monitor and potentially even kill someone accidentally (at least a few people have been mentioning the possibility of 13 *base* damage, before net hits), and it gets past things that prevent stun damage from KOing you. it can target a weak spot for an enemy if they have a low agility or reaction but high armor and damage resistance.

is it a power everyone will want? probably not. and that's fine. the number of people *forced* to take it is zero, so if you don't like it, don't choose it.

is it a power that has uses, allows things that would otherwise not be possible, and may appeal to some for a specific concept? yup. it may or may not be more expensive than it should be, i'm not gonna try to argue that. but just because you don't like it doesn't mean it has no uses whatsoever.
The Jopp
It is an ability that can 'potentially' paralyze a cyberzombie in one attack with a bit of luck - and thats kinda funny if you stun them for 60 seconds and then cap'em
Jaid
banking on a cyberzombie that doesn't have very high agility and reaction and won't have a decent unarmed pool to defend with as well seems... hmmm... let's just say that's optimistic, shall we?

i don't think it's worthless... but i wouldn't recommend it specifically for taking out cyberzombies.

now, what it might be great for is taking down a magician or matrix specialist that has chosen to put everything into body and armor, but not much into reaction or agility or defensive melee skills.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Jaid @ Sep 21 2012, 08:36 AM) *
banking on a cyberzombie that doesn't have very high agility and reaction and won't have a decent unarmed pool to defend with as well seems... hmmm... let's just say that's optimistic, shall we?


Well, I DID say 'potentially'...

An optimized melee character at 19D6 attack and taking out it's agility (let's say AGI 15) could cripple a cyberzombies speed and attack test by spending a little karma for re-rolls.

Umidori
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Sep 20 2012, 11:56 PM) *
They get to defend but no resistance test. Get attribute to 0 and kill them at your leasure.

Weak characters can take down armored high body trolls that way

Except that if you're already building an unarmed combat adept, why would you not already have a high strength? Especially considering that every other adept power for unarmed combat benefits greatly from having a high strength, and that you'll likely also want the extra Climbing and Running dice from a high strength in order to actually get into melee range half the time?

QUOTE (Jaid @ Sep 21 2012, 12:52 AM) *
with agility + escape artist, strength is not the issue. you're not snapping a rope with your arm muscles in a restrained position.

I meant "as strong as ropes" to refer to the zip ties' capacity for restraining a character. If metal handcuffs have a threshold of only 4, which is exactly the same threshold as ropes, zip ties at best share that threshold of 4 - because if they had a higher threshold than handcuffs, that would in effect be saying that a purpose-built restraining device long employed by law enforcement organizations is less effective than makeshift restraints improvised from a form of office supply originally intended for neatly bundling electrical cords and similar. Which would be absurd. nyahnyah.gif

Overall, I just don't get it.

Okay, so it incapacitates without doing any damage. That's very rarely useful, if at all. I have a very hard time thinking of any situation in which it would actually make a difference. Unless you have an absurdly specific mission requirement that a target not be harmed in any way, even a scratch or a bruise or whatever, I don't see the appeal. If you're merely trying to not kill your targets, normal unarmed should be fine - even accidentally overflowing slightly into physical is going to have essentially no effect whatsoever 99.99% of the time, unless you're throwing punches so strong that you just instantly fill up and overflow both their condition moniter tracks in a single blow (in which case you have a whole other set of problems, and you also have plenty of options such as just using Shock Gloves instead). Or maybe you're trying to stun out someone who is already heavily wounded? But when the hell does that happen? If they're wounded, it's overwhelmigly likely that it's because the runners made them that way, so unless there's some severe miscommunication going on, this shouldn't be happening that often. And even with all these absurdly unlikely situations, you still have other cheaper options like drugs or spells, or even just getting them into physical overflow and using a stabilization patch on them if you're desperate.

The lack of enemy damage staging has some small merit to it, I admit. But once again, 1) there are easier and cheaper alternatives, and 2) how often is this going to actually be useful? Unarmed adepts already have Elemental Strike, which can halve or even completely bypass armor, as well as inflicting incapacitation via elemental secondary effects, and it synergizes with the normal unarmed adept builds. Drugs once again are a very viable alternative, also bypassing armor. Spells are nice too, particularly Mana Spells, which are resisted merely with Willpower. There are even tech toys like the Pain Inducer or Freeze Foam for incapacitating foes, or perhaps even hacking the enemy's weapons and 'ware if you can. Unless you're fighting milspec monstrosities or dragons, I can't believe you're ever really going to be needing Nerve Strike.

I just don't find it worth the price, and no one has given me any arguments for it's supposed value that I find compelling. I cannot justify spending an entire power point on something so incredibly situational that can so easily be duplicated by other means without great cost.

~Umi
UmaroVI
When I make an unarmed combat adept, I always like to think about how I can narrow the niche in which I am useful even more.
Umidori
Not sure whether serious or sarcastic... nyahnyah.gif

~Umi
The Jopp
QUOTE (Umidori @ Sep 21 2012, 12:40 PM) *
Except that if you're already building an unarmed combat adept, why would you not already have a high strength?


Because I like to create character concepts.

Nerve strike is exceptionally useful for adepts that are NOT very strong but have the ability to take down targets larger than themselves.

Example: Very fast Elf but has standard STR3 and shock gloves instead of killing hands
Example: The old sensei that can hardly lift a teacup but have the ability to humiliate even the strongest student
Example: The mystic adept with touch range spells and nerve strike
Example: For the sheer FUN of it.

I DO think that the abilities like Distance Strike and Nerve Strike are overpriced though. They should slash those ability costs in half.
Umidori
I agree. Flair, coolness, and just plain personal preference are all good reasons to take Nerve Strike. Just not at that cost.

~Umi
The Jopp
QUOTE (Umidori @ Sep 21 2012, 01:56 PM) *
I agree. Flair, coolness, and just plain personal preference are all good reasons to take Nerve Strike. Just not at that cost.

~Umi


The same goes for distance strike.

Being able to punch people up to 6 meters away is not something worth 30% of your magic. Especially as it does not improve the damage in any way so you are unlikely do actually HARM the enemy unless you are a souped up troll.

0-1 meter: Close Combat
2-6 meter: Heavy Pistol Close Range [You can charge at this range instead...]

Even if we took Magic X2 it would be no more worth than 1 point due to effectiveness of other abilities.

Distance strike must usually be combined with high attributes and killing hands so it's actual INDIVIDUAL worth is not more than 0,5 points. THEN we add all the power that it can be combined with to be of any use.

The same goes for Nerve Strike as it ONLY affects living beings which means the following

Animals and People = YES
Drones= NO
Spirits=NO

30% usefulness against the more common threats. So lets cut it down to 0,5 points.
UmaroVI
Distance Strike is really a lot more defensible, because it counts as a ranged attack for defense purposes. If you're going up against people who do have Dodge or a Melee skill, it's a pretty substantial to-hit bonus; if you are punching someone who has 4 ranks in a melee skill or in Dodge, you break even compared to Improved Ability. It's especially good against spirits (who have skill=Force and can be very hard to hit), or TWS users. Really, it's better to think of DS as the ability to bypass people's melee defense skills, and it also lets you shoot fist lasers as a side bonus.
The Jopp
QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Sep 21 2012, 05:58 PM) *
Distance Strike is really a lot more defensible, because it counts as a ranged attack for defense purposes. If you're going up against people who do have Dodge or a Melee skill, it's a pretty substantial to-hit bonus; if you are punching someone who has 4 ranks in a melee skill or in Dodge, you break even compared to Improved Ability. It's especially good against spirits (who have skill=Force and can be very hard to hit), or TWS users. Really, it's better to think of DS as the ability to bypass people's melee defense skills, and it also lets you shoot fist lasers as a side bonus.


The problem is that with its limited range you only have one chance because in the next turn they are IN melee range, and you can hardly bypass their melee skill IN melee.
UmaroVI
Actually, you can: you can make ranged attacks from melee range, you just take +2 point blank, -3 in melee for a net -1. It's often still better.
Cabral
Isn't there a martial arts style that reduces the ranged attack in melee penalty? Firefight or Krav Maga?
Dolanar
There are actually 2 maybe 3: Krav Maga allows it be taken once & I think Firefight is twice, & Sangre Y Acero is once for a total of -4 for 20bp or 40 Karma.
Krishach
just my 2 cents: we have a player who uses nerve strike without base damage to great effect, especially against other melee'ers, and especially with Counterstrike.

The short explanation is he puts all his points on the side of hits, and can out-roll nearly every CC person he goes toe to toe with, and whittle down their stats into a snowball of fuck-you. It turns into less damage (the extra hits to damage I mean) than my own hobgoblin CC brawlers 8P base (who soaks damn well too), but the two of us squared off once, and I couldn't hit the bastard, and damage soak doesn't work vs nerve strike. My agility got lower and lower every time he landed a hit.

I agree that it's cost makes it an inferior choice solely for taking live targets, or in gun fights, compared to other options that can be bought with only money. But CC vs CC on a character built for such, I found it astonishingly effective. Side note: I also had 30 more karma that this character did too.
The Jopp
QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Sep 21 2012, 07:12 PM) *
Actually, you can: you can make ranged attacks from melee range, you just take +2 point blank, -3 in melee for a net -1. It's often still better.


But the entire concept sounds retarded. You are in a melee fight and start punching the air and hits your opponent that cant defend?

Nevermind - doesn't sound retarded at all when i get that image in my head as someone seems to just send punches straight through blocks and parries.

Still, the ability is far to expensive for it's limited range as it really needs to be combined with something else like killing hands or elemental strike.

Distance Strike with elemental effect blast would be a cool visual representation of a kinetic distance strike.

Add power geas "blatant magic" to the abilities and you can scream HADOUKEN when attacking.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Krishach @ Sep 26 2012, 08:04 AM) *
I agree that it's cost makes it an inferior choice solely for taking live targets, or in gun fights, compared to other options that can be bought with only money. But CC vs CC on a character built for such, I found it astonishingly effective. Side note: I also had 30 more karma that this character did too.


Well, 30 karma isn't very much unless it's spent on low level skills or two initiations.

The problem is that it is a 'fun' power but severely limited. On the other hand the ONLY defense you get is your defense roll. On the THIRD hand (if you mutated) they can take a -3D6 for close combat and shoot you in the face.
Umidori
I'd be interested in seeing how a generic mage with Stunbolt handles that Nerve Stiker, rather than a melee CC specialist.

Or for maximum fun, a CC mage. nyahnyah.gif


~Umi
The Jopp
QUOTE (Umidori @ Sep 26 2012, 01:50 PM) *
I'd be interested in seeing how a generic mage with Stunbolt handles that Nerve Stiker, rather than a melee CC specialist.

Or for maximum fun, a CC mage. nyahnyah.gif


~Umi


Hmm, could I as a mystic adept use a touch range stunbolt combined with a nerve strike attack?

Umidori
That's like asking if you can deal Unarmed damage while also dealing separate electrical damage with a Shock Glove. wink.gif

~Umi
The Jopp
QUOTE (Umidori @ Sep 26 2012, 02:59 PM) *
That's like asking if you can deal Unarmed damage while also dealing separate electrical damage with a Shock Glove. wink.gif

~Umi


Well, you do.
Or was that a trick question.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Sep 26 2012, 07:12 AM) *
Well, you do.
Or was that a trick question.


Actually you don't. With a Shock Glove, you either deal Unarmed Combat Damage, or you deal Electrical Damage, Never Both.
Want to do both at the same time, Get an adept with Elemental Blast. smile.gif
The Jopp
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 26 2012, 02:35 PM) *
Actually you don't. With a Shock Glove, you either deal Unarmed Combat Damage, or you deal Electrical Damage, Never Both.
Want to do both at the same time, Get an adept with Elemental Blast. smile.gif


Ah, houserule from our view then.

We find it nuts that a full power strike from a troll with bonelacing doing physical damage being (slightly) softened by a layer of shock glove that zaps someone in the face as their jaw is pulverized more logical than the kinetic energy of 250+ kilograms of troll propelled muscle is somehow just ignored and you slap someone lightly on the cheek instead.

The connectors is on the knuckles, knuckles hit face, kinetic energy is transferred, jaw broken and electric shock delivered.

I could argue that I need to buy new gloves after awhile as the gloves break after a few fights.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Sep 26 2012, 10:49 AM) *
Ah, houserule from our view then.

We find it nuts that a full power strike from a troll with bonelacing doing physical damage being (slightly) softened by a layer of shock glove that zaps someone in the face as their jaw is pulverized more logical than the kinetic energy of 250+ kilograms of troll propelled muscle is somehow just ignored and you slap someone lightly on the cheek instead.

The connectors is on the knuckles, knuckles hit face, kinetic energy is transferred, jaw broken and electric shock delivered.

I could argue that I need to buy new gloves after awhile as the gloves break after a few fights.


The troll obviously uses his pinky to touch you.
Jaid
QUOTE (Krishach @ Sep 26 2012, 02:04 AM) *
just my 2 cents: we have a player who uses nerve strike without base damage to great effect, especially against other melee'ers, and especially with Counterstrike.

The short explanation is he puts all his points on the side of hits, and can out-roll nearly every CC person he goes toe to toe with, and whittle down their stats into a snowball of fuck-you. It turns into less damage (the extra hits to damage I mean) than my own hobgoblin CC brawlers 8P base (who soaks damn well too), but the two of us squared off once, and I couldn't hit the bastard, and damage soak doesn't work vs nerve strike. My agility got lower and lower every time he landed a hit.

I agree that it's cost makes it an inferior choice solely for taking live targets, or in gun fights, compared to other options that can be bought with only money. But CC vs CC on a character built for such, I found it astonishingly effective. Side note: I also had 30 more karma that this character did too.


well, the potential problem there is that if he was the stereotypical doomsday machine of a melee character, he could just punch you in the head instead, which will start with applying negative modifiers and eventually KO you as well. not as large of negative modifiers, granted, but if you can't hit him anyways, it's good.

nerve strike is nice for taking down people who are already injured, because it has zero chance to deal damage. you are never going to (for example) punch a guy who has 7 boxes of stun and 6 boxes of physical damage for 9P and put him straight into a coma requiring immediate medical attention to prevent death. and you're never going to be the guy who put a target who had 6 boxes of physical into the position of having 6 physical and 7 stun on him because your punch hit, but didn't quite do enough to KO nyahnyah.gif
Xenefungus
I have the feeling that the point some people are missing here is that you don't (as in should not) get Nerve Strike *in addition* to strength, critical strike, elemental strike, etc. (which would really be a bad idea). You get it *instead*.

Just a different path to punching faces that leads to another kind of character.
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