Nerve Strike Wording Query Options

[Umidori]

This power allows an adept to inflict a paralyzing attack, temporarily crippling an opponent, by targeting vital nerve clusters. The adept declares he is using the power and makes a normal unarmed melee attack. Instead of inflicting damage, each net hit reduces his opponent's Agility or Reaction (attacker's choice) by 1. Etc.

So the typical way this is read, and the way it's been read forever as far as I can tell, is that "Instead of inflicting damage" is assumed to be referring back to the use of the power, or the normal unarmed melee attack in the previous sentence. But linguistically speaking, it could also be referring to, and modifying, "each net hit".

In other words, it could be read "Each net hit, instead of inflicting damage, reduces his opponent's Agility or Reaction (attacker's choice) by 1." This makes sense, as net hits on a normal unarmed melee attack normally inflict damage. The implication or the new reading would be that instead of increasing the base damage value of the attack, each net hit instead reduces the opponent's Agility or Reaction.

This new reading changes Nerve Strike from an overpriced, never used, fluff-centric novelty into a legitimate and viable side-grade for unarmed adepts. Being able to inflict the intended paralysis effect, while still being able to deliver one's unmodified base unarmed combat damage, is an interestingm and in my opinion quite balanced, tactical option to possess.

Nowhere in the wording of the power does it ever state that the attack itself deals no damage. This is in direct contrast to numerous other similar rulings, such as Subduing attacks ("This subduing attack causes no damage to the defender"), the operation of the Ares S-III Super Squirt ("The attack itself causes no damage, but..."), the Disarm martial arts maneuver ("This maneuver does no damage to the opponent"), the Herding martial arts maneuver ("On a successful attack, the character deals no damage to her opponent, but..."), et cetera.

Furthermore, comparison to prior edition rules and their wordings shows that Nerve Strike has long been ambiguously worded and structured. In 3E, "Rather than inflicting damage, every 2 net successes reduce the target’s Quickness by 1." And the same structure again in 2E, "Instead of inflicting damage, however, every two net successes on the adept's Unarmed Combat Test reduce the target's Quickness rating by one."

Please spare any "that's absurd, you're just munchkinning / power-gaming / rules lawyering, etc" comments. Looking for legitimate critique on this, particularly looking for people who might have solid insights into the original intention of the author of this power, links to pertinent threads I've been unable to find via searching the forums, links to FAQs or dev commentaries or Q&A sessions, that sort of thing.

Personally I'd like to see if this pans out. Nerve Strike is a cool concept that unfortunately isn't worth using based on its current interpretation, and hasn't been for a long time. I think the implications of the new reading make it much more attractive, while still being reasonable and requiring an appropriate trade off.

~Umi

[VykosDarkSoul]

I would have to agree that ambiguity exists in spades with this reading. However, I kind of like your idea for this. I have been trying to justify taking this, and the only way i have been able to even somewhat see it is a pacifist. This makes it much more viable.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

While your take on it is interesting, I am not really sure about it. Not sure if I like it or not. I had a Troll Physad who had this and he was usually rendering competent opponents incapacitated with just 2-3 hits (Occasionally in one, even, when I got lucky). Of course, he could have just killed them with the same 2-3 hits.

[Dreadlord]

Hm, interesting idea. What are the consequences of this interpretation? Does this swing Nerve Strike into OMG territory?

I would like to see an example, directly comparing the two interpretations. I would do it myself, but I am at work.

[Whitefur]

We have always in 4:th used it like its written. No damage, minus to chosen stat. I was surprised it wasnt used that way by everybody:)

[bannockburn]

The reading is certainly not completely clear, as you pointed out.
However, I believe that nerve strike is taken precisely because you don't want to do damage, but instead paralyze your enemy.
So, IMHO, leave it as it is and ignore the damage (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The reading is certainly not completely clear, as you pointed out.
However, I believe that nerve strike is taken precisely because you don't want to do damage, but instead paralyze your enemy.
So, IMHO, leave it as it is and ignore the damage (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Indeed... If you want to do damage, Nerve Strike is not the ability for you. If you want to take a person down while dealing absolutely NO damage, Nerve Strike has few competitors.

[UmaroVI]

I think it's ambiguous enough that you could read it that way. It's still not overpowered and really still not even very good, but it's an improvement to be sure.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think it's ambiguous enough that you could read it that way. It's still not overpowered and really still not even very good, but it's an improvement to be sure.

I still do not understand why people claim that it is not any good. I have used it to great effect over the years, in multiple editions. The point of the Nerve Strike is to NOT do damage, but still remove the ability to do anything (paralyze). It works wonderfully for that purpose. *Shakes Head and gives a puzzled look*

[Umidori]

And in which circumstances might that be of substantial value? And how well does the potential benefit measure up against the opportunity costs?

By it's very nature, it's an incredible niche ability. It's only useful for Unarmed Combat Melee Adepts. And then it has pretty much zero synergy with the other powers that an unarmed combat adept is going to normally want. It also has reduced synergy with the typical physical attributes of an unarmed combat adept, benefiting the most from having high agility and a maximized dice pool, and not at all from strength.

It has an odd effectiveness tradeoff, faring better against "slow and tough" characters that have high armor and body to stage down damage, but faring worse against "frail but nimble" characters with high agilities and reactions. The paralysis lingers only a few minutes, whereas an unconscious character is essentially out for the rest of a mission segment, barring medical assistance or similar. Critters suffer only half its effects, and the ability is useless against spirits and drones - which also feeds negatively into its lack of synergy with normal unarmed adept builds, as in the event you have to fight such enemies you would want those powers and attributes which allow you to deal physical damage and which boost your damage value enough to overcome their high levels of armoring.

What real benefit do you get from this power? When would it ever be genuinely preferable to merely paralyze a metahuman rather than simply knock them unconscious? Maybe you need them awake to interrogate? The Awaken spell works wonders and has a phenomenally low drain, and select drugs also work.

Everything an adept can do with Nerve Strike you can do just as well and cheaper with other, more useful powers. Maybe if it cost 0.5 or 0.25 power points, instead of 1 whole point... Maybe if it had better synergy, and didn't incentivise designing your character's entire build around one single power... Maybe if it offered something unique that was actually of value, rather than something inconsequential that is ultimately just a novelty or fluff component...

It's the old adept complaint all over again. Why would I take Improved Reflexes when I could take a Synaptic Booster? Why would I take Improved Strength or Improved Agility above my natural maximum when I could take Muscle Augmentation or Muscle Toner? Why would I take the inefficient and less powerful option when I can take the one that is outright better?

~Umi

[Makki]

it's the Vulcan Nerve Pinch! Do we need any more reason?
You can decrease the power's price by giving it a Geas "attack to a presue point at the neck"


my biggest issue is the few minutes thing. I can't even complete a run, before the guard awakens. If I put him to sleep with a tranq patch, I could have done this in the first place and an easier touch-attack.

[Xenefungus]

I don't think Nerve Strike is underpowered at all. And I say that as someone who cares a lot about the stats of a character.
But it is indeed a power to build around and does not synergize with the other unarmed combat powers (except improved ability).

This is why my Nerve Strike character only has a Strength of 1 and no damage boosting powers at all (which saves quite a few points). If you go for nerve strike, you want to use it exclusively. As already mentioned, a big dice pool is really important. This is why Agility 12 (surged elf + muscle toner) and Skill 10 (+2 Nerve Strike) come in handy. With a DP of 24, you can reasonably expect 8 hits on an attack. This is usually enough to take out "mooks" (who might get 3 hits on their defense and only have an attribute of 5 that you need to reduce to zero). For stronger enemies, you do indeed need two hits usually which is why Finishing Strike is worth gold there - attack once do reduce Reaction, attack again against their now already lower defense. This is usually enough ro reduce even a boosted attribute of 9 down to 0.

The major selling point here is that body and armor does not work against nerve strike at all.

What has been said about drones is true, a nerve strike fighter is not viable against those. But then, he doesn't need to. Animals are harder then metahumans but doable, since their defense pools are usually not really high and their (often high) body and natural armor values don't apply.


Of course one needs to compare this to a standard damage build. With a base strength of 7 as an orc, maxed critical strike and martial arts you are usually looking at around 13 base DV, which is a lot. Considering that the same dicepool can be acquired as before, this will usually be enough to instantly incapacitate mooks with one hit. Against tougher opponents, they will have body + impact armor of around 18 dice which negates 6 damage on average. With a condition monitor that is usually larger than their attributes, it is quite likely that they might indeed stand such a blow. What helps is that your team mates are able to deliver the same kind of damage through various means which is a huge advantage. But then again, you spent a lot more ressources to get there (upping strength alone is near 100 Karma). You are also more efficient against drones and vehicles by doing this though. And as soon as we get into "Elemental Strike (Sound)"-territory to negate all armor, things are looking all different again.



Summing up, i guess it's safe to assume that both ways are different but totally viable in their own ways.

[Aerospider]

I don't see the wording as ambiguous in this instance. Net hits don't 'inflict damage' they raise the base DV before it gets reduced by the soak roll. It is the attack as a whole that inflicts damage, ergo no damage is inflicted. Could have been worded better, but it's clear enough for me.

I also don't have qualms with it. Sometimes it's important not to cause visible injury. Sometimes it's important not to cause heavy or chronic damage. Sometimes it's easier to reduce a stat to 0 than to fill the stun track.

It is indeed very niche, as are most adept powers. It is because of this that the best reason to play an adept is to do niche things, as opposed to achieving a cheaper and/or cooler street samurai.

[The Jopp]

Do Nerve Strike count as a full melee attack or is it a "touch attack"? Gaining +2D6 for the attack?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Do Nerve Strike count as a full melee attack or is it a "touch attack"? Gaining +2D6 for the attack?

We have always considered it a Full Atatack. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[The Jopp]

Hmmm...

Nerve Strike SHOULD be able to be used with Distance Strike...

It's a non-magical attack where you strike never clusters. Distance strike would only improve range.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Hmmm...

Nerve Strike SHOULD be able to be used with Distance Strike...

It's a non-magical attack where you strike never clusters. Distance strike would only improve range.

Don't see why it couldn't be used. It is not called out as incompatible. I know Elemental Strike is not usable with Distance Strike, but Killing Hands, Penetrating Strike, and Critical Strike are allowed. Don't really see why Nerve Strike would be disallowed (and it isn't, by the book). You can even use Martial Arts at range, for that matter. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[The Jopp]

Don't see why it couldn't be used. It is not called out as incompatible. I know Elemental Strike is not usable with Distance Strike, but Killing Hands, Penetrating Strike, and Critical Strike are allowed. Don't really see why Nerve Strike would be disallowed (and it isn't, by the book). You can even use Martial Arts at range, for that matter. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hmm...time to build The old Sensei
STR: 2
AGI: 6
Magic: 6 (4)
Restricted Gear: Muscle Toner
Muscle Toner 4 32K [0,8]
Synaptic Booster 2 160K [1,0]
Reflex Recorder (Unarmed) 10K [0,1]

Distance Strike: 2
Nerve Strike: 1
Commanding Voice: 0,25 [Sensei says JUMP...and you jump...]
Improved Ability: 0,75 Persuation (rating 3) Combined with Commanding Voice

Essence used: 1,9

Melee Skill 6 [Nerve Strike] +2

19D6 on a attack test for nerve strike

Add A ruthenium suit for stealth and he will paralyze things from left to right...but he is a piece of meatloaf that you stick band-aid on if he gets shot.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Hmm...time to build The old Sensei
STR: 2
AGI: 6
Magic: 6 (4)
Restricted Gear: Muscle Toner
Muscle Toner 4 32K [0,8]
Synaptic Booster 2 160K [1,0]
Reflex Recorder (Unarmed) 10K [0,1]

Distance Strike: 2
Nerve Strike: 1
Commanding Voice: 0,25 [Sensei says JUMP...and you jump...]
Improved Ability: 0,75 Persuation (rating 3) Combined with Commanding Voice

Essence used: 1,9

Melee Skill 6 [Nerve Strike] +2

19D6 on a attack test for nerve strike

Add A ruthenium suit for stealth and he will paralyze things from left to right...but he is a piece of meatloaf that you stick band-aid on if he gets shot.

I would likely have gone a slightly different way (Less skill/attribute, so less attack dice), but it is an interesting character snippet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Jaid]

i'm confused why a lack of synergy with other unarmed combat powers would be important. you use nerve strike when you want to disable but not kill. you use normal punches when you want to kill.

whether or not it's worth it is largely dependant on how often you want to disable people without killing.

(also, the duration really isn't a huge issue... paralyze them, then restrain them once they can't defend themselves, if you want it to last longer. zip ties are cheap and legal).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

i'm confused why a lack of synergy with other unarmed combat powers would be important. you use nerve strike when you want to disable but not kill. you use normal punches when you want to kill.

whether or not it's worth it is largely dependant on how often you want to disable people without killing.

(also, the duration really isn't a huge issue... paralyze them, then restrain them once they can't defend themselves, if you want it to last longer. zip ties are cheap and legal).

Indeed... I love me some Zip Ties... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Umidori]

i'm confused why a lack of synergy with other unarmed combat powers would be important. you use nerve strike when you want to disable but not kill. you use normal punches when you want to kill.

whether or not it's worth it is largely dependant on how often you want to disable people without killing.

(also, the duration really isn't a huge issue... paralyze them, then restrain them once they can't defend themselves, if you want it to last longer. zip ties are cheap and legal).

Normal punches don't kill. They inflict stun damage. You need to use 'ware, powers, martial arts, or sap gloves to inflict physical damage.

My question remains. How is punching someone with stun damage and knocking them unconscious any different than hitting them with nerve strikes and paralyzing them? It lasts longer. And that's it.

As for your zip ties notion, have you ever actually read the Escape Artist rules? To escape from bindings, you roll Agility + Escape Artist as an extended test. You can default on this test. The threshold for Ropes and Handcuffs is 4 hits, and plastic zip ties are at best as strong as ropes, possibly even weaker. So for a mook with 4 agility, losing 1 die to defaulting, that's an average of 4 Complex Actions to escape, or 12 seconds. If the escaping character has a cutting implement, even a set of keys (which guards will surely possess), they get an extra 2 dice on their rolls, which will almost halve the time they take to escape. Unless you actively sit and babysit the restrained character, they'll almost always be able to escape very quickly indeed.

So again, what the hell is the value? Punch them in the face, stun them into unconsciousness. Or shoot them in the face with gel rounds, stun them into unconsciousness. Or Stunbolt them in the face, stun them in into unconsciousness. Or slap a tranq patch on their face, stun them into unconsciousness. Or blow up a concussion grenade in their face, stun them into unconsciousness.

...or spend 1/6 of your maximum chargen adept power points to get an ability that lets you punch someone in the face, except they're only down and out for a few minutes, rather than a few hours.

~Umi

[The Jopp]

My question remains. How is punching someone with stun damage and knocking them unconscious any different than hitting them with nerve strikes and paralyzing them? It lasts longer. And that's it.
i

They get to defend but no resistance test. Get attribute to 0 and kill them at your leasure.

Weak characters can take down armored high body trolls that way

[Jaid]

with agility + escape artist, strength is not the issue. you're not snapping a rope with your arm muscles in a restrained position.

the tightness, stretchability, and other factors will come into play. i'm not convinced a zip tie is particularly like a rope in those situations.

also, there's the chance for a critical glitch (and a pretty decent chance for regular glitches) when you're rolling that often. and this assumes the mook in question has 4 dice when defaulting.

bypassing armor, ignoring resistance tests, not having a chance to overflow the stun monitor and potentially even kill someone accidentally (at least a few people have been mentioning the possibility of 13 *base* damage, before net hits), and it gets past things that prevent stun damage from KOing you. it can target a weak spot for an enemy if they have a low agility or reaction but high armor and damage resistance.

is it a power everyone will want? probably not. and that's fine. the number of people *forced* to take it is zero, so if you don't like it, don't choose it.

is it a power that has uses, allows things that would otherwise not be possible, and may appeal to some for a specific concept? yup. it may or may not be more expensive than it should be, i'm not gonna try to argue that. but just because you don't like it doesn't mean it has no uses whatsoever.

[The Jopp]

It is an ability that can 'potentially' paralyze a cyberzombie in one attack with a bit of luck - and thats kinda funny if you stun them for 60 seconds and then cap'em