♪ This was a triumph, making a note here huge success,
Its hard to overstate my satisfaction... ♪

Snipers with gel rounds and a team ready to move in with the magemask and magecuffs. Then forcibly introduce the mage to the path of the burnout (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Catgirl strippers with tasers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I'm not actually confident that wouldn't geek the mage. There's two culprits for this.

1. Mages, with generally higher willpower scores than body, are more likely to sport a higher stun damage track than physical damage track.
2. The way combat turns work.

#1 creates a situation where a mage has a better shot of remaining conscious after the gel round than other characters.
#2 creates a problem were you declare all your actions prior to resolving them.

So our sniper gets 2 attacks but he must elect to fire one or both at the mage. He can't declare and resolve the first action, see that the mage is still standing and fire a second shot. So since mages might need 2 shots to KO but their stun track is larger than physical, it creates a troublesome situation where it's very easy for a sniper to geek a mage with non-lethal means. At least, that would be my concern. If the sniper instead only elects to attack the mage once and he's not KOed, then the mage gets to respond which can screw everything up. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Stick-n-shock is probably the better ammo choice over gel rounds.

Not really in this case. In a sniper rifle, the damage value would be DOWNgraded by using SnS, and since it does not have a reference to the "don't tase me roll" in the description of the ammunition, that means that SnS does not force that roll. (Having the (e) on the chart does not automatically force the roll if it's not referenced in the description.)

Capsule rounds with DMSO and Slab are better. Mages have a lower-than-normal Body, so they're bound to be out for many hours.

What?

Downgrading the damage is precisely the reason why I suggest using SnS ammunition. As I said. You have to declare all your actions at the beginning of your turn before you resolve any. That is the point where you need to decide if you're going to double tap a target or only shoot him once. If shooting him once isn't going to KO him, you need the second shot declared then. So by lowering your damage through using SnS you increase the odds that you do need to double tap while reducing the odds that a double tap is going to geek the mage.

The "don't taze me bro" effect needs to be saved against any time you take electrical damage. Page 164. SnS replaces the weapons damage code with 6S(e) and the (e) indicates that the weapon deals an electricity damage attack (page 311 sidebar for damage code).

If you'll pay attention to the descriptions of the weapons though, all of the other ones specifically reference it. Stick-n-Shock does not, and as such does not cause the effect.

Weren't you the one raging against rules-lawyer-y weasel-wording a few weeks back, All4?

The point is, if they wanted the ammo to have that effect like the other weapons do, they would have referenced it in the description like they did with the other ones.

People gripe about it being supposedly broken when they're the ones "breaking" it by having it do something that the description does not include.

Right, let's simply ignore the fact that the damage code lists it as electricity, the fact that the description of SnS states it pulses electricity, and the Electricity Damage section states a broad claim that similar electrically charged weapons also follow those rules.

Those other weapons as I've already stated twice already, specifically reference the roll. The ammo does not, and so it doesn't have it. Requires no special "digging for loopholes", only following the rules as they are written without adding to or making assumptions that aren't stated.

Seems to me that people argue against this because it disproves their belief that the ammo is "broken".

That's definitional 'weasel-word rules lawyering". And I have nothing more to say on that matter.

Okay so what's the damage code for stick and shock?



So what does (e) mean?



So what is electricity damage?



Requires only following the rules as they are written without adding to or making assumptions that aren't stated.

Electricity damage causes knock out; general rule.
SnS provides no specific rule that counteracts the effect of the general rule. Thus general rule applies, SnS very much tase you.
Questions?

Stun Baton: Referenced, and thus has it.



Shock Gloves: Referenced.



AZ-150 Stun Baton: Referenced.



Stick-n-Shock: No reference.


Again, I say the argument to have it on the ammo is because the people who dislike it don't like they're view of it being "broken" being disproven.

I thought the main reason SnS was considered broken, was because of it's spirit murdering capacity.
Referenced or not it still does electricity damage so the point is moot, it doesn't explicitly state that SnS doesn't induce the effect. So it follows the general rule for electricity damage.

SnS ammo being perceived as broken is not based on the fact that it deals electricity damage. It's based on the fact that SnS provides an increase of damage and armor penetration well above what the weapon would have. Changing a weapon from 4P/0AP or 5P/0AP to 6S/-half and it's against impact armor instead of ballistic and impact is traditionally lower than ballistic already. Say you have 12/10 armor? Your 5P/0AP pistol is now a 6S/-5AP weapon. The ammo would still be broken even if it didn't get the chance to incapacitate.

Yes, the ammo type is just outright broken. I have no issues with what it does to spirits (which have a fundamentally flawed scaling mechanism). I have tons of issues of what it does to players and NPCs.

The -2 penalty... on top of the save or die knockout... is the problem (unconscious is worse than dead in SR when I can just grab a knife and finish you or prep you for all kinds of other *fun*). As well as the half armor electrical bit AND increasing the damage code of most small handheld weapons. I'd have zero issues if SnS was a shotgun only round... okay I'm shooting the equivalent of a large battery at them and discharging it all at once.... but in a hold out pistol?

There's reasons this round is very commonly house ruled.

Emphasis mine. As StealSigma well laid out, the rules are not fuzzy at all whether or not SnS ammo deals electricity damage. They clearly also incur the elemental secondary effects of electricity.

I don't think the incapacitation is really part of the problem. The -2 penalty is a problem as is how it affects weapon damage. The incapacitation check is a threshold 3 test to avoid incapacitation but even a modest 9 dice is not at all hard to obtain for the check. 3 from body, 3 from willpower, 3 from half impact armor.

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It's Stealth, not Steal. I'm not a thief. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Also, thanks, even though we disagree on barriers and called shot.

Stealth... now work out your probability curves.. 9 dice works out to just under a 40% chance of knockout.

People always forget the average doesn't matter it's the number of times you don't roll at least 3. And if you're getting shot twice, make that test twice per pass... now you're up to over half the time knocked out if the damage doesn't do it on it's own. Then of course there's the stun damage modifier and the -2 for electrical on top of it... if you do make them both. And lets not forget it's unique utility against drones and electronics (forced shutdown while it reboots).

So you're basically discreet math.
Yes awful, I know.

9 dice is modest and likely the minimum anyone who would be subjected to it on a semi-regular basis would have. Consider any street sammy is going to have a higher body score. Mages would have higher willpower. Higher values of impact armor thanks to PPP is also trivial. Non-conductivity is extremely cheap. Raising that three more to 12 dice and basically permitting you to buy hits to pass the test is not hard at all.

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Discrete summation.